Are you RIGHTEOUS?

[FranC]

Amen!

Because there are many deceived people who are trying to work for their salvation, yet don't truly know Jesus, even though they may know about Him.

No. Born-again Christians are to work BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. We must not put the cart before the horse.

Right.
Born again Christians are ALREADY SAVED, they don't need to work to BECOME SAVED.

WHY do they need to work?

Answer: BECAUSE JESUS told them to.

Is really that easy...

 

[FranC]

o.k. go about trying to prove works-based lies. i'm out.

Good. One less hyper grace person to deal with...

 

[slave]

Ummm.

We're not discussing righteousness right now.
Would this be what you call a strawman???

What I'm asking is this:

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO WORKS FOR GOD?

OR IS IT NOT NECESSARY??

This is what I want to know.

righteousness happens to be a different topic.

On the contrary, Righteousness is the answer to your question. Being properly aligned with God means His will will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. The question you are actually asking, in my opinion is, will He need to transform our lives? The answer to that question is yes!

 

[mailmandan]

Ummm.

We're not discussing righteousness right now.
Would this be what you call a strawman???

Romans 4:5 discusses righteousness and that is the verse you brought up in post #127.

What I'm asking is this:

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO WORKS FOR GOD?

OR IS IT NOT NECESSARY??

Necessary to become saved? No, but doing good works is our reasonable service and if we claim to be saved but never do any good works at all, then we demonstrate that our claim of faith is bogus. "Necessary" is a loaded word, coming from you.

This is what I want to know.

righteousness happens to be a different topic.

Doing good works for God is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers and all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

 

[FranC]

Sanctification and holy simply means as you have said - "set apart" - or "other" - that is why God is called "holy" - There is no "other" like Him. He is "set apart" from all things.

There were garments that were holy - does that mean they were "progressively" getting holy?....No, of course not - they were "set apart" for use.

There were holy days - does that mean the were "progressively" being sanctified. The gold was "sanctified" in the temple.

Lot's of examples of the real use of the term "set apart/sanctified".

Godliness is a better way of describing the process of "working out what already is in us in Christ in our inner man the sanctification that is ours because we are in Christ" - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Hebrews 10:14 says "we are sanctified" and it is in the present passive - which means we are being "set apart" and it is all done passively to us because we are in Christ and we are being "transformed" by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor 3:17-18.

We already are sanctified ( set apart ) because we are in Christ now as these scriptures clearly show.

Sometimes our religious teachings are ingrained in our minds and when we hear something "different" we balk at them and of course it's heresy to us...as usual...

Christ is our sanctification:

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Acts 20:32 ; Acts 26:18; Rom. 15:16; 1 Cor. 1:2; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 10:10; Jude 1:1 - all these scriptures say that we as Christians are already sanctified/set-apart.

They are either in the Greek perfect tense or the past tense and they are passive which means it is something done to us - not us doing it.

Now, I believe as we work out the sanctification and life of Christ that is in us in our new creation that is in Christ now - we are then set apart/sanctified for use by the Lord here in this earth.

This is where godliness has great gain not only in this life but in the world to come. God rewards us for the work that He does through and in us. What a great salvation and awesome Lord we belong to!

Set apart FOR GOD'S WORK.
What are we set apart FOR??

Also, your definition is correct, of course --- BUT

Since I brought up JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION,

it should be understood that I'm referring to theology - the study of God.

So, in referenceto THEOLOGY, what does Sanctificaation mean?

What's the DIFFERENCE between Justification and Sanctification?

Since there are two different words
it must mean two differenct concepts...

I know, Grace, that you cannot really explain sanctification because it'll go against everything you preach...
SANCIFICATION REQUIRES works, and you don't like works.

But, let's see what you can come up with and how long of a page it'll take...

 

[FranC]

On the contrary, Righteousness is the answer to your question. Being properly aligned with God means His will will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. The question you are actually asking, in my opinion is, will He need to transform our lives? The answer to that question is yes!

Righteousness.....being right with God.

EVERY born again believer is right with God.
So the righteousness question becomes moot.

I want a yes or no answer to this question:

ARE WORKS NECESSARY?

(Jesus said they are)
lata...

 

[mailmandan]

Right.
Born again Christians are ALREADY SAVED, they don't need to work to BECOME SAVED.

Amen!

WHY do they need to work?

Answer: BECAUSE JESUS told them to.

Is really that easy...

Working for Jesus/obeying His commands shows our love for Him and brings Him glory. Believers work for Jesus, not because we have to, but because we want to, because we love Him.

 

[slave]

Romans 4:5 discusses righteousness and that is the verse you brought up in post #127.

Necessary to become saved? No, but doing good works is our reasonable service and if we claim to be saved but never do any good works at all, then we demonstrate that our claim of faith is bogus. "Necessary" is a loaded word, coming from you.

Doing good works for God is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers and all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1).

Actually doing good works is not our reasonable service but presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, is our reasonable service. This is much more of an encompassing position governed by God than you seem to illustrate..

 

[mailmandan]

Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1).

Actually doing good works is not our reasonable service but presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, is our reasonable service. This is much more of an encompassing position governed by God than you seem to illustrate..

Do you believe that presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing has nothing to do with good works?

 

[PeterJens]

I would be so happy if you never spoke of Augustine again.
No other early theologian agreed with much of what he said.
He changed his mind about concepts.
He made a mess with predestination... at least it wasn't double predestination, but I Always get him put in my face.

Also, none of the early Church fathers I know about believed in OSAS.
They believe in WORKS.

A nasty word nowadays.

Cheap grace is what many want.
God has Grace and books could be written on this.
He give us His grace.
Some cheapen it and wish to give nothing in return.

There is a simple question. If easy believism creates people in the image of Christ, walking
in His ways, Amen. But what you tend to get is just the continuation of sinful lifestyles but
with the christian label.

Now those who are honest, the struggle within between the flesh and the Spirit is always
an issue of choice, and indulgence in the flesh, makes it stronger, sucks people in, so
there is no resistance. So it is in the end, you sow to the Spirit or you die.

How you describe this walk, as maintaining salvation, earning it, walking in it, the realities
are you walk the road or you fall off and probably will not return. I know the feelings and
tumult within, and it is always a choice. Now this does produce people who are in the image
of Christ, pure, holy, righteous. So I think the argument is simple. Obey and live, disobey
and fall away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is why it takes pages to explain one verse.

This is why some here copy and paste. They just repeat the same incorrect doctrine over and over again.

Taking verses out to make them mean what they want to. Twisting the words of Jesus. Always going to verses that seem to say what they want them to say instead of the simple words of our Lord, and taking the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT in context TO ITSELF.

Always talking about context and never paying heed to their own words.

Then the TRUE GOSPEL of CHRIST has to be depicted as garbage.

Nice.

whats the true gospel?

That we are saved by works? That we have to work to maintain salvation? That the cross is not enough? That God said I did my part, now you do yours? That in the long run, we have to work hard to save ourselves?

Thats not good news..

where is the rest that Jesus promised to all who entrusted themselves to him?

 

[slave]

Righteousness.....being right with God.

EVERY born again believer is right with God.
So the righteousness question becomes moot.

I want a yes or no answer to this question:

ARE WORKS NECESSARY?

(Jesus said they are)
lata...

Righteousness is not being right with God (only), that is regeneration, Being Born-again, it is being in the proper alignment with God. This is an onward active position. It is how we live by faith in His grace. Once we understand this, we see how as a bondservant to righteousness, which Scripture disclaims, we will produce the fruit of Christ in us. This has to do with elements of our own will as well as His empowerment as Lord. Good works are the fruit of Salvation therefore, the fruit of our Christlikeness; our New Creation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does being OBEDIEN IN HIM mean exactly?

Why not be obedient FOR Him, like He asked you to??

John 14:15
John 15:14

So she said she was obedient,

yet you asked her why not be obedient?

are you confused about what she said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see.

Romans 4:5

So you DO THINK we're to do nothing for God.

The truth comes out.

should I add this to my slander op I am thinking of making?

Rom 4 said we were not found or saved by works. Not that we are to do not works. Why would you twist what MM said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What did Paul say in Romans 4:5? Is faith or works accounted for righteousness? Does this mean we are to do nothing for God after faith has been accounted for righteousness? NO. Elsewhere, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, *For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "to do nothing?" NO. We (believers) are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is the truth. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Is that difficult for you to understand?

Thank you MM, I can use this also. Next time she tries to say you do not think we have to do works. I can post this following it to prove it has already been explained to her that that is not true.

And maybe, just maybe, she heard you this time, and repented? I have not got to the end yet, There is always hope. and we can finally stop with this stuff.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Persons who try to work and be good for their salvation and don't know Jesus are not saved.

WHY do you keep talking about them?
Do you think that born-again Christians who work are unsaved??

so people who try to be good and work for their salvation and know jesus are saved?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen!

Because there are many deceived people who are trying to work for their salvation, yet don't truly know Jesus, even though they may know about Him.

No. Born-again Christians are to work BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. We must not put the cart before the horse.

amen brother

The bible says born again christians will work, (not might work) they are obedient (not might be) They have faith (not maybe they have faith) and because of this faith, they work, because you do things for a person you trust.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good. One less hyper grace person to deal with...

lol. He does not even follow the hyper grace doctrine you people are at war with.

Your too funny Fran.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen!

Working for Jesus/obeying His commands shows our love for Him and brings Him glory. Believers work for Jesus, not because we have to, but because we want to, because we love Him.

Thats what makes grace so powerful, We willingly work for people who love us, and do not force us,, When we are forced to do things,, We tend to back off, and it becomes a chore to do any work at all.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have often said this and I will post it again about sanctification.

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy then we are now.

However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

This involves the renewing of the mind to walk out what already is in the new creation that is one spirit with Christ now. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

( who are sanctified this is present passive....passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us sanctifying us daily by Jesus' sacrifice. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin because we are in Him - He is the Light - 1 John 1:7 )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive ).

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

Acts 26:17 (NASB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (perfect passive )

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit - the new man in Christ - the new creation) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

We are holy because He is holy! Christ makes us holy. We are transformed as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror by the Holy Spirit. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 & Phil. 2:13