Does God Lie?

[preacher4truth]

First, it is NOT Isa. 53:3, but Isa. 53:5. You would know that if you had ever cracked a Bible open, instead of just throwing out 6 words. So, context, again, because you are a slow learner.

"Surely he took up our painand bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6



First, the entire chapter of Isa. 53 is about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. It is in no place about physical healing. If you had read it, you would understand.

So what pain did Jesus take up? Well, the pain of our consequences of our transgressions, iniquities and sins.

Why was Jesus punished, including being whipped, and then having to carry his own cross. Well, because of our sins.
Why was Jesus pierced the the Roman swords? Well, because of our transgressions!
Why was Jesus crushed? Because of our iniquities.
Why was Jesus punished? So that we could have peace with God! Because our SINS separated us from God.

There is no peace, when you are separated from God. Our sickness did not separate us from God. Our sins did! Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and the woulds that we are healed from, are the wounds of sin and death.


Verses 7-9 detail how Jesus suffered because of us.

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Verse 53:10a.

So why did Jesus go to the cross? Very clearly, verse 10 above says - "he makes his life an offering for sin."

"because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa 53:12

Then, Isaiah finishes with the whole reason Jesus died.

Was it for healing of the body or healing of the soul? Because sin damages the soul. It wound us in our being. So, we need to be healed of the wounds of sin sickness.

When you pick 6 words out of the end of verse 5, you miss the entire purpose of Isa. 53 - that is to document - or in fact to prophecy how Jesus would die, how he would suffer both on the cross and on the way to the cross, so that he could bear the sin of many. He made his life an offering for sin.

This is the REAL gospel. And this is the message of Isaiah 53, Isaiah, the Old Testament and the New Testament! Not a few words carefully hidden, that are pulled out of context by deceitful teachers and liars who do not understand the basics of how to read the Bible! Nor do they understand the real gospel, as you do not seem to either.

Yep. Denadii is preaching a different gospel and that is a fact.

 

[bluto]

It is easy to get caught up in the threads. LOL God's Grace (His empowering PRESENCE) kicks the slats out of any 'thorn' In this case the thorn was a 'messenger from Satan, sent to buffet Paul. No demon can stand in Gods PRESENCE Not ever. That makes the answer to Pauls prayer a YEA and AMEN

your turn bluto...something else to attack me with

I'm your huckleberry denadii? And no, I'm not attacking you, I'm confronting and exposing your heretical theology that you learned from wof wolves. What does Acts 20:29,30 say? "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; vs30, (Now watch this denadii) "and FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES MEN WILL ARISE, (what will they do denadii?) speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them."

So who do you think these people are today that are in the church posing as sheep but are really wolves? I say many are wof teachers and preachers that you follow. And why does the Apostle Paul say at vs31, "Therefore be on the ALERT, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one of you with tears." It's because he cares for people just like I care for you. I am not your enemy denadii.

And 2 Peter 2:1-3 is what your doing. "But false prophets also arose among the people just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. vs2, And many will follow their pernicious ways, (do you know what pernicious means denadii? It means having a harmful effect, especially in gradual or subtle way).

and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; vs3, and in their greed they will exploit you (who is more greedy that wof) with FALSE WORDS; their judgement from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." Need I say more denadii? Well actually yes because as I was typing this God gave me 2 Timothy 4:20 regarding sickness. "Erastus remained at Corinth, BUT TROPHIMUS I LEFT SICK AT MILETUS." Why did the Apostle Paul live this man sick instead of healing him denadii?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you know it is sad, As far as I can tell, the op has not been back in along while. she probably got sick of the bickering and judgment.
'Way to go!

 

[DarkRose]

It's not a name anyone wants to be called. Especially just for saying what the Word says. Oh Well. Not my problem.

The demons cannot stand in His PRESENCE unless we allow it. We still call it. Whatever we speak is what we will see. If you come under attack of the enemy all you have to do is tell it to leave. Or shut up..........Oops. I should have done that this morning... When I came under attack.....

so now we control where the demons stand? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Pin those cases in the bible when disciples or apostles (or wtvr) cast demons out of people or places, the demons were already in those people or places which to me seems impossible if God's presence is everywhere, all the time. So, the demons were in God's presence but God needed us to...do what exactly?
Now im just confusing myself

 

[dcontroversal]

you know it is sad, As far as I can tell, the op has not been back in along while. she probably got sick of the bickering and judgment.
'Way to go!

Exactly why my first post was a confession of my difficulties with my son and lost children.......figured it would help.....

 

[Denadii]

so now we control where the demons stand? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Pin those cases in the bible when disciples or apostles (or wtvr) cast demons out of people or places, the demons were already in those people or places which to me seems impossible if God's presence is everywhere, all the time. So, the demons were in God's presence but God needed us to...do what exactly?
Now im just confusing myself

Interesting question. Well Right now, come to think of it Demons can stand in Gods presence. Satan still comes before the Father to accuse us. So then. One has to use Gods grace (His empowering Presence) to kick these things out off and away What do you think?

 

[Angela53510]

God's Grace in you...Grace is God's Empowering PRESENCE in you.

A Bluto is a major pest who has been riding me most of the day. Along with a few others. They say I'm a heretic.

Just a note as to why I believe the Word Faith doctrine is heresy!

There are many doctrines we don't agree on as Christians. Eschatology so a big one, soteriology, too. What we believe about end times, regardless of what some dispensationslsts say, does not affect our salvation.

Ironically, even soteriology, so long as there is an understanding that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast, does not make it a heresy. (Some may disagree, but as long as you are not tampering with the Bible, and your heart and life has been changed by the power of God, who are we to say person A is not saved, while person B is?)

The reason Word Faith is heresy is two fold:

1. It takes Scriptures out of context, does not look at the passage, the Scripture or the whole Bible to interpret verses. It rejects the vivid word pictures both Jesus and the prophets used in their writings, called metaphors, and replaces them with a chilling literalism that would have shocked the poetic Hebrew people.

A good example would be "by his stripes we are healed," referring to spiritual sickness in the entire book of Isaiah. In fact, although I haven't checked, I do not believe there is one single reference to physical healing in all of Isaiah. I just did a quick google search, not even Joseph Prince nor Andrew Wommack, who write on this verse, posts a single other incidence of God healing in Isaiah. In fact, they link back to the two other "proof" texts in Matthew and first Peter, which I have have dealt with before, and will again in a separate post.

2. Heretics add to the Bible. They take a verse such as "you are gods" and make it a prophecy that believers are god. I find that to be scary, to say the least, but beyond the scope of this discussion.

So, in essence - when you deal with the central issue to our faith - the atonement- and you make it say what it is not meant to say, you have gone past orthodoxy into heterodoxy. In other words, you are espousing heresy!

The atonement defines everything Christian. It is the way we are saved. And anyone who believes, having been changed by God, is saved. But when you start adding things to the atonement, like you MUST be healed, or taking 6 words in isolation, and interpreting them to mean physical healing, rather than the spiritual healing that the Greek Septuagint actually translates as "sin sickness", then you have crossed a dangerous line into heresy.

Put another way, if healing was in the atonement, it would be prophesied over and over again, not just in part d of Isa 53:5. Or implied in verse 4. Spiritual healing, restoration, the atonement for sins by Jesus life, death, resurrection and ascension literally starts in Genesis 3, and continues to Revelation 22. God never reveals a vital and major doctrine in 1/4 of a verse in the OT and 2 quotes in the NT. That is forcing a theological doctrine, where there is not one. The atonement restores what sin had broken, and that is our relationship with God. One day, we will all be restored to perfect health, and there will be no more crying or tears!

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4

And lest I be plummeted again. I do believe God heals in his time and will. For some of us, that might be through doctors or other medical practitioners, or at the Resurrection. And sometimes God reaches down from heaven and heals miraculously! But, it is the mercy and compassion of God that initiates that kind of action, not naming and claiming it, demanding or feeling that God has obligated himself to physically heal in the atonement, because he has not!

 

[SecondHandHippie]

This was actually written about my other special needs daughter who can walk, so in a way, prayer answered.

 

[SecondHandHippie]

I'm sure we have all asked this question at different times in our walk of faith. Even the greatest men of God in the Bible had doubt. David was called "a man after God's own heart" by God himself, and even he had doubts of this nature.

 

[Denadii]

Just a note as to why I believe the Word Faith doctrine is heresy!

There are many doctrines we don't agree on as Christians. Eschatology so a big one, soteriology, too. What we believe about end times, regardless of what some dispensationslsts say, does not affect our salvation.

Ironically, even soteriology, so long as there is an understanding that we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast, does not make it a heresy. (Some may disagree, but as long as you are not tampering with the Bible, and your heart and life has been changed by the power of God, who are we to say person A is not saved, while person B is?)

The reason Word Faith is heresy is two fold:

1. It takes Scriptures out of context, does not look at the passage, the Scripture or the whole Bible to interpret verses. It rejects the vivid word pictures both Jesus and the prophets used in their writings, called metaphors, and replaces them with a chilling literalism that would have shocked the poetic Hebrew people.

A good example would be "by his stripes we are healed," referring to spiritual sickness in the entire book of Isaiah. In fact, although I haven't checked, I do not believe there is one single reference to physical healing in all of Isaiah. I just did a quick google search, not even Joseph Prince nor Andrew Wommack, who write on this verse, posts a single other incidence of God healing in Isaiah. In fact, they link back to the two other "proof" texts in Matthew and first Peter, which I have have dealt with before, and will again in a separate post.

2. Heretics add to the Bible. They take a verse such as "you are gods" and make it a prophecy that believers are god. I find that to be scary, to say the least, but beyond the scope of this discussion.

So, in essence - when you deal with the central issue to our faith - the atonement- and you make it say what it is not meant to say, you have gone past orthodoxy into heterodoxy. In other words, you are espousing heresy!

The atonement defines everything Christian. It is the way we are saved. And anyone who believes, having been changed by God, is saved. But when you start adding things to the atonement, like you MUST be healed, or taking 6 words in isolation, and interpreting them to mean physical healing, rather than the spiritual healing that the Greek Septuagint actually translates as "sin sickness", then you have crossed a dangerous line into heresy.

Put another way, if healing was in the atonement, it would be prophesied over and over again, not just in part d of Isa 53:5. Or implied in verse 4. Spiritual healing, restoration, the atonement for sins by Jesus life, death, resurrection and ascension literally starts in Genesis 3, and continues to Revelation 22. God never reveals a vital and major doctrine in 1/4 of a verse in the OT and 2 quotes in the NT. That is forcing a theological doctrine, where there is not one. The atonement restores what sin had broken, and that is our relationship with God. One day, we will all be restored to perfect health, and there will be no more crying or tears!

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4

And lest I be plummeted again. I do believe God heals in his time and will. For some of us, that might be through doctors or other medical practitioners, or at the Resurrection. And sometimes God reaches down from heaven and heals miraculously! But, it is the mercy and compassion of God that initiates that kind of action, not naming and claiming it, demanding or feeling that God has obligated himself to physically heal in the atonement, because he has not!

Just as long as you realize that this post is merely your opinion. Opinions only matter to the person that owns it. Now you are on my ignore list because to my understanding all you want to do is fight and bully. I don't have to do either. I don't believe a word you say. I'll only believe what I read in the Word.

 

[Denadii]

I'm sure we have all asked this question at different times in our walk of faith. Even the greatest men of God in the Bible had doubt. David was called "a man after God's own heart" by God himself, and even he had doubts of this nature.

I'm holding both your daughters up in prayer, my friend

 

[stonesoffire]

Yep. Denadii is preaching a different gospel and that is a fact.

Ridiculous to say such a thing. When did faith in the very Words of God become a different gospel?

 

[SecondHandHippie]

This was actually written about my other special needs daughter who can walk, so in a way, prayer answered.

Actually, sorry. I was confused and thought I was responding to a different post of mine. My (now 13) year old daughter still can't walk, but is using her "dis"ability to bring hope to other children around the globe through Jonni Erickson Tada's "Wheals for the World" program and also has an Etsy shop where she owns her own small business selling paintings she does with the wheels of her chair. She has inspired MANY through her disability and has lead many at her school towards the Lord. Because she is in a chair, everyone knows her and they look to her joy and faith in Jesus as an inspiration. If she were healed, I doubt she would even remotely have such a great impact for the Lord as she does now. She was chosen by God to be blessed with a physical infirmary (while the world sees it as a curse) to be a healer to those with infirmity of the soul.

 

[SecondHandHippie]

welcome to CC and thank you for that heartfelt post,

I'm actually back after being gone for 20 years. Yes, I'm that old, and yes, it's been around that long. LOL

 

[SecondHandHippie]

no I read it,yet she has not given a reason for why she gave the title of "does God lie" which makes no sense or are you suggesting somehow that this thread title does make sense concerning her???

If you read the OP, it was a question my daughter was acting out, and a question I answered for her.

 

[SecondHandHippie]

What is WRONG with some of you people!!

Probably should just not post because I'm angry.

This woman tells the story of her daughter who has faith and believes God, and your white-washed grave response is that she didn't have enough faith?!!

Just how cruel are you?[/QUOTE
All I know is that this little girl has shown something that is very lacking in the church, regardless if the healing was done or not she showed such a beautiful show of child like faith she never questioned if it was her will vs God's or if she had enough faith or if the answer was yes or no she believed in god asked and then went for it this is why this little girl is so amazing to me.

there is something in this story that we are not seeing, this isn't even about an argument of healing it's about the kind of faith this little one showed. This is the kind of genuine child like faith that Jesus spoke of when he said we must become like little children. This little girl without even meaning to or knowing it shines a lesson that many of us need to listen to, pay attention to the kind of faith this little one showed not the debate of healing. Sometimes it takes a babe for the grown and the wise and mature to truly learn

That touched my heart and brought tears to my eyes. Exactly. I admired my daughter's faith so much in this moment. To have pure faith like that...and GO FOR IT!

 

[SecondHandHippie]

you know it is sad, As far as I can tell, the op has not been back in along while. she probably got sick of the bickering and judgment.
'Way to go!

No, I just have four children, three with special needs, and I'm a single mom with very little time to get on here. I know internet bickering happens. I just ignore it. LOL

 

[stonesoffire]

would rep you for your wisdom but I can't...consider yourself repped..

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If you read the OP, it was a question my daughter was acting out, and a question I answered for her.

Back on the first page,I was the one that said,the title of the thread was offensive and I left the thread,I decided to look at the thread again and now that I know why you gave the title of this thread that name,I understand and I would like to ask you to please forgive me.

 

[SecondHandHippie]

No worries, we all make mistakes! No hard feelings. I've done the same sort of thing before myself.