Not By Works
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The problem is that people will define that a level of works needs to be maintained to be saved.
At what level do we need to achieve and in fact what are these works?
Most think it's managing sin, others saying that we need to confess all sin to forgiven, others say we needed to be baptised to be saved and the list could go on.
Jesus talks about when judging the sheep and the goats.
The foucus seems to be here on love.
Feed the poor, visit the sick, give someone a drink, clothed them, visited those in prison.
Please people don't get me wrong.
I am not advocating sin at all, also I'm not advocating no need to come before God and confess my sin.
Everone needs to be careful if they believe that works save us cause no one knows what level that is at, even if they say they do.
Also we need to be very careful to write someone off who goes missing in action and also those who we would feel are not walking in the right way.
Love and compassion and wisdom of God is needed to come alongside and teach and restore. And it must always lead back to Jesus.
Truth is if works could save us then Jesus did not have to die, the greater truth is that having placed faith in Jesus and we now have the a Holy Spirit in us we will do good works because we love Jesus and want to be like him.
I am always saying and praying Jesus I want to be like you.
At what level do we need to achieve and in fact what are these works?
Most think it's managing sin, others saying that we need to confess all sin to forgiven, others say we needed to be baptised to be saved and the list could go on.
Jesus talks about when judging the sheep and the goats.
The foucus seems to be here on love.
Feed the poor, visit the sick, give someone a drink, clothed them, visited those in prison.
Please people don't get me wrong.
I am not advocating sin at all, also I'm not advocating no need to come before God and confess my sin.
Everone needs to be careful if they believe that works save us cause no one knows what level that is at, even if they say they do.
Also we need to be very careful to write someone off who goes missing in action and also those who we would feel are not walking in the right way.
Love and compassion and wisdom of God is needed to come alongside and teach and restore. And it must always lead back to Jesus.
Truth is if works could save us then Jesus did not have to die, the greater truth is that having placed faith in Jesus and we now have the a Holy Spirit in us we will do good works because we love Jesus and want to be like him.
I am always saying and praying Jesus I want to be like you.
I believe that we continue in the righteousness of Christ when we sin. We are still the children of God. We have an ongoing sanctification process that takes place within the new creation and within our relationship to Him.
An example would be ... Peter saying for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul tells the Corinthians ........ therefore let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 John 1:9 shows us how to do that ........ it's for the purpose of being cleansed of all unrighteousness - this is why we confess our sins. It's because we're saved that we will obey. Those who aren't saved won't.
Paul tells the Philippians to press on towards the goal of the prize of the heavenly call of God. So we see still there's a progression towards sanctification. We are saved, were being saved and we will be saved.
Religion doesn't get things backwards or mixed up. It's pure religion we need. James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
It's the enemy of our souls using slick tongues that appear as truth (light) but are speaking lies and are false teachings (darkness).
Yes, it's all by God's grace. I don't understand how confessing sin is in opposition to God's grace. It's His grace watching over us that compels us to confess our sins so that we walk in righteousness.
Philippians 2:12,13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I believe in assurance of salvation. I could never tell someone osas. I don't know their heart, only God does and only God knows those who are truly His children.
The bible says those who continue on in the faith are the very ones who are truly God's child. We may sin, we may backslide, but if we're truly His, we will return, confess sin and be cleansed and forgiven and walk in the faith in obedience to Christ.
Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
P
What's the difference? It's still a dead faith (a confession of faith without works attached). And he said dead faith can not save a person.
That's right.
There is no room for the popular easy believism argument when it comes to faith.
Faith is either alive and growing, even if only slowly, or it doesn't exist at all.
I agree.
A person doesn't abandon their faith in Christ's forgiveness over night. I think it's a drawn out process fueled by recurring doubt in the midst of tribulation.
No argument here.
The point is, it's still faith, even as small as it is, not the absence of faith. The absence of faith is the problem.
That's right.
There is no room for the popular easy believism argument when it comes to faith.
Faith is either alive and growing, even if only slowly, or it doesn't exist at all.
I agree.
A person doesn't abandon their faith in Christ's forgiveness over night. I think it's a drawn out process fueled by recurring doubt in the midst of tribulation.
No argument here.
The point is, it's still faith, even as small as it is, not the absence of faith. The absence of faith is the problem.
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Why is there this many pages of debate over salvation being "not of works"?
Last time I checked Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:5 were in the Bible still. That should end the debate right there. Past that you are just arguing against Scriptures and there is no place for that, you are fighting the wind, a hurricane wind at that.
Last time I checked Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:5 were in the Bible still. That should end the debate right there. Past that you are just arguing against Scriptures and there is no place for that, you are fighting the wind, a hurricane wind at that.
P
I was considering asking the same question because I think the air is cleared now and it is understood that no one has been claiming salvation is earned by works but rather works must accompany salvation because that's what faith does.
I think we can all go home now. Nobody has been saying salvation is earned by works.
I think we can all go home now. Nobody has been saying salvation is earned by works.
P
If that's what you want then Christ will indeed do that for you. He will increase your faith and bring you safely to the kingdom of light. The problem comes in if we turn away in a willful unbelief from Christ's power to do that for us. The former believer loses all the power of God that is gained through faith because he no longer has the conduit of faith through which to receive that power.
Here is a few websites that speak of 1 John being written about Gnostics so it is well documented by others. People are free to believe whatever they want. Without the revelation of the Holy Spirit revealing the works of Christ to us - we will create our own religion. All of us do it - it's the way of the flesh.
Here's one:
Recipients
1Jn 2:12–14,19; 3:1; 5:13 make it clear that this letter was addressed to believers. But the letter itself does not indicate who they were or where they lived. The fact that it mentions no one by name suggests it was a circular letter sent to Christians in a number of places. Evidence from early Christian writers places the apostle John in Ephesus during most of his later years (c. a.d. 70–100). The earliest confirmed use of 1 John was in the Roman province of Asia (in modern Turkey), where Ephesus was located. Clement of Alexandria indicates that John ministered in the various churches scattered throughout that province. It may be assumed, therefore, that 1 John was sent to the churches of the province of Asia (see map No. 13 at the end of this study Bible).
Gnosticism
One of the most dangerous heresies of the first two centuries of the church was Gnosticism. Its central teaching was that spirit is entirely good and matter is entirely evil. From this unbiblical dualism flowed five important errors:
The Gnosticism addressed in the NT was an early form of the heresy, not the intricately developed system of the second and third centuries. In addition to that seen in Colossians and in John’s letters, acquaintance with early Gnosticism is reflected in 1,2 Timothy,Titus, and 2 Peter and perhaps 1 Corinthians.
Occasion and Purpose
John’s readers were confronted with an early form of Gnostic teaching of the Cerinthian variety (see Gnosticism above). This heresy was also libertine, throwing off all moral restraints.
Consequently, John wrote this letter with two basic purposes in mind: (1) to expose false teachers (see 2:26 and note) and (2) to give believers assurance of salvation (see 5:13 and note).
In keeping with his intention to combat Gnostic teachers, John specifically struck at their total lack of morality (3:8–10); and by giving eyewitness testimony to the incarnation, he sought to confirm his readers’ belief in the incarnate Christ (1:3). Success in this would give the writer joy (1:4).
Here's one:
Recipients
1Jn 2:12–14,19; 3:1; 5:13 make it clear that this letter was addressed to believers. But the letter itself does not indicate who they were or where they lived. The fact that it mentions no one by name suggests it was a circular letter sent to Christians in a number of places. Evidence from early Christian writers places the apostle John in Ephesus during most of his later years (c. a.d. 70–100). The earliest confirmed use of 1 John was in the Roman province of Asia (in modern Turkey), where Ephesus was located. Clement of Alexandria indicates that John ministered in the various churches scattered throughout that province. It may be assumed, therefore, that 1 John was sent to the churches of the province of Asia (see map No. 13 at the end of this study Bible).
Gnosticism
One of the most dangerous heresies of the first two centuries of the church was Gnosticism. Its central teaching was that spirit is entirely good and matter is entirely evil. From this unbiblical dualism flowed five important errors:
- The human body, which is matter, is therefore evil. It is to be contrasted with God, who is wholly spirit and therefore good.
- Salvation is the escape from the body, achieved not by faith in Christ but by special knowledge (the Greek word for “knowledge” is gnosis, hence Gnosticism).
- Christ’s true humanity was denied in two ways: (1) Some said that Christ only seemed to have a body, a view called Docetism, from the Greek dokeo (“to seem”), and (2) others said that the divine Christ joined the man Jesus at baptism and left him before he died, a view called Cerinthianism, after its most prominent spokesman, Cerinthus. This view is the background of much of 1 John (see 1:1; 2:22; 4:2–3 and notes).
- Since the body was considered evil, it was to be treated harshly. This ascetic form of Gnosticism is the background of part of the letter to the Colossians (see Col 2:21,23 and notes).
- Paradoxically, this dualism also led to licentiousness. The reasoning was that, since matter—and not the breaking of God’s law (1Jn 3:4)—was considered evil, breaking his law was of no moral consequence.
The Gnosticism addressed in the NT was an early form of the heresy, not the intricately developed system of the second and third centuries. In addition to that seen in Colossians and in John’s letters, acquaintance with early Gnosticism is reflected in 1,2 Timothy,Titus, and 2 Peter and perhaps 1 Corinthians.
Occasion and Purpose
John’s readers were confronted with an early form of Gnostic teaching of the Cerinthian variety (see Gnosticism above). This heresy was also libertine, throwing off all moral restraints.
Consequently, John wrote this letter with two basic purposes in mind: (1) to expose false teachers (see 2:26 and note) and (2) to give believers assurance of salvation (see 5:13 and note).
In keeping with his intention to combat Gnostic teachers, John specifically struck at their total lack of morality (3:8–10); and by giving eyewitness testimony to the incarnation, he sought to confirm his readers’ belief in the incarnate Christ (1:3). Success in this would give the writer joy (1:4).
Here's another:
4. 1 John:
In the First Epistle of John there is a distinct polemical purpose. There is no book of the New Testament which is more purposeful in its attack of error. There is "the spirit of error" (1John 4:6), opposing the Spirit of truth. "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1John 4:1), and this from the church itself.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us" (1John 2:19); and these false prophets are distinctly named "the antichrist" (1John 2:22) and "the liar" (same place), and "the deceiver and the antichrist" (2John 1:7).
And another:
There is debate whether or not this is a Christian heresy or simply an independent development. The evidence seems to point to the later. Nevertheless, the Gnostics laid claim to Jesus as a great teacher of theirs and as such requires some attention. It is possible that 1 John was written against some of the errors that Gnosticism promoted.
And another:
The purpose of the letter is to combat certain false ideas, especially about Jesus, and to deepen the spiritual and social awareness of the Christian community (1 Jn 3:17).
Some former members (1 Jn 2:19) of the community refused to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ (1 Jn 2:22) and denied that he was a true man (1 Jn 4:2).
The specific heresy described in this letter cannot be identified exactly, but it is a form of docetism or gnosticism; the former doctrine denied the humanity of Christ to insure that his divinity was untainted, and the latter viewed the appearance of Christ as a mere stepping-stone to higher knowledge of God.
These theological errors are rejected by an appeal to the reality and continuity of the apostolic witness to Jesus. The author affirms that authentic Christian love, ethics, and faith take place only within the historical revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
The fullness of Christian life as fellowship with the Father must be based on true belief and result in charitable living; knowledge of God and love for one another are inseparable, and error in one area inevitably affects the other. Although the author recognizes that Christian doctrine presents intangible mysteries of faith about Christ, he insists that the concrete Christian life brings to light the deeper realities of the gospel.
Unquote:
4. 1 John:
In the First Epistle of John there is a distinct polemical purpose. There is no book of the New Testament which is more purposeful in its attack of error. There is "the spirit of error" (1John 4:6), opposing the Spirit of truth. "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1John 4:1), and this from the church itself.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us" (1John 2:19); and these false prophets are distinctly named "the antichrist" (1John 2:22) and "the liar" (same place), and "the deceiver and the antichrist" (2John 1:7).
This peril, against which the apostle writes, and from which he seeks to defend the church, was Gnosticism, as is proved by what is said again and again in the epistle of the characteristics of this insidious and deadly teaching.
And another:
There is debate whether or not this is a Christian heresy or simply an independent development. The evidence seems to point to the later. Nevertheless, the Gnostics laid claim to Jesus as a great teacher of theirs and as such requires some attention. It is possible that 1 John was written against some of the errors that Gnosticism promoted.
And another:
The purpose of the letter is to combat certain false ideas, especially about Jesus, and to deepen the spiritual and social awareness of the Christian community (1 Jn 3:17).
Some former members (1 Jn 2:19) of the community refused to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ (1 Jn 2:22) and denied that he was a true man (1 Jn 4:2).
The specific heresy described in this letter cannot be identified exactly, but it is a form of docetism or gnosticism; the former doctrine denied the humanity of Christ to insure that his divinity was untainted, and the latter viewed the appearance of Christ as a mere stepping-stone to higher knowledge of God.
These theological errors are rejected by an appeal to the reality and continuity of the apostolic witness to Jesus. The author affirms that authentic Christian love, ethics, and faith take place only within the historical revelation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
The fullness of Christian life as fellowship with the Father must be based on true belief and result in charitable living; knowledge of God and love for one another are inseparable, and error in one area inevitably affects the other. Although the author recognizes that Christian doctrine presents intangible mysteries of faith about Christ, he insists that the concrete Christian life brings to light the deeper realities of the gospel.
Unquote:
That's enough but a simple search brought up over 25 of them.
P
You fail to understand that James said that to claim you are saved but have no works is to have a dead faith that CAN NOT SAVE.
James 2:14
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
The answer to his rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. The (so-called) faith that has no works is the faith that can not save you. Why does the church insist James is wrong?
If you have a 'faith' that produces no work, then you have a faith that can not save you. That's how 'works' are necessary in salvation. Not to earn salvation, but because work is what faith does. Obedience is the footprint of faith, just as it was for Abraham. John goes so far as to call the person who says they know God but does not obey God a LIAR.
1 John 2: NASB
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him...
James 2:14
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
The answer to his rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. The (so-called) faith that has no works is the faith that can not save you. Why does the church insist James is wrong?
If you have a 'faith' that produces no work, then you have a faith that can not save you. That's how 'works' are necessary in salvation. Not to earn salvation, but because work is what faith does. Obedience is the footprint of faith, just as it was for Abraham. John goes so far as to call the person who says they know God but does not obey God a LIAR.
1 John 2: NASB
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him...
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