The Rapture

[VCO]

@Burninglight

You are equating the unveiling of the antichrist with the great tribulation, why?

BECAUSE the Bibles says this Antichrist, that rider on the WHITE HORSE, with a bow and no arrows, symbolizing conquering Peacefully; VERY QUICKLY after coming to POWER, starts WWIII Rider of the Red Horse, which if it goes full scale nuclear will kill outright one third of the World's population. And who knows how many more from the radioactive fallout.


Revelation 6:1-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!”
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.


Revelation 9:15-18 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions’ heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.

 

[VCO]

But who told you that the rapture was in Revelation 14? I am not someone who likes suffering; I like pleasure and that is my problem. I am just sharing what I believe the Lord showed me. I could be wrong and hope I am about that.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.



Revelation 6:15-17 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

 

[Burninglight]

Simple. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and the sheep and goats thing in Matt25.
And the people coming out of their graves when Jesus returns in premillennialism will not be all people, but only the saved people. The unsaved will be resurrected after the 1000 years have passed.

This is my main issue with premillennialism as much as I like to see it there, but unfortunately it is only there in Rev20.

Maybe the reigning with Christ during the first resurrection is not over people but over angels and heavenly host. it does say we'll judge angels in Scripture. Bottomline, pre trib rapture must be ruled out completely.

 

[KJV1611]

BECAUSE the Bibles says this Antichrist, that rider on the WHITE HORSE, with a bow and no arrows, symbolizing conquering Peacefully; VERY QUICKLY after coming to POWER, starts WWIII Rider of the Red Horse, which if it goes full scale nuclear will kill outright one third of the World's population. And who knows how many more from the radioactive fallout.


Revelation 6:1-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!”
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.


Revelation 9:15-18 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions’ heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.

The bible doesn't say anything about an antichrist riding a horse, nor that a bow without arrows symbolizes peace. But the bible does sayJesus rode in to Jerusalem on a white horse carrying a battle bow going to conquer our enemies... I don't understand you lol. It's like you crave war and destruction on everybody so you can look down from heaven and laugh at them.

Why do you pervert the scripture so? You do realize your making this stuff up don't you?

 

[VCO]

John 18:36 KJV
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

He's ALWAYS been king of his world... he brought his world (kingdom) to us. But what your point in this, are you saying Jesus isn't the first white horse rider?

My kingdom is not of this world. What part of that do you not understand? I say His position as King of HEAVEN, IS NOT His future position of KING is this World. THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT REALMS. THE THOUSAND YEAR KINGDOM AS KING OF THIS WORLD IS AN EARTHLY REALM. KING OF HEAVEN, is NOT AN EARTHLY REALM.


Daniel 4:36-37 (HCSB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] At that time my sanity returned to me, and my majesty and splendor returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and my nobles sought me out, I was reestablished over my kingdom, and even more greatness came to me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt, and glorify the King of heaven, because all His works are true and His ways are just. He is able to humble those who walk in pride.


Earthly Kingdom in the Bible is the Heavenly Kingdom, and neither is the Heavenly Kingdom the Earthly Kingdom. Those to verse make that VERY PLAIN and Simple to understand.

THUS:



Zechariah 14:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.


Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.


TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT REALMS.

 

[Burninglight]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yes, "Not for Wrath" but it doesn't say not for tribulation. There is a difference between wrath and tribulation. We are promised tribulations throughout Scripture.

Revelation 3:10 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

This is saying trail not tribulation. They too are different. Trails are like temptations. Believe me when your life is threaten for your faith, you'll be going through trails and temptations, but God will give you the grace and power for the time you need it and not before.(Power to over come tribulation). We are promised power for the hour that is all that is saying. You are reading into it what it isn't saying.

Revelation 6:15-17 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Yes, while the evil government is attacking God's elect, He will be attacking them, but we'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. We don't know the day or hour, but when those things happen we can look up for our redemption draws near as stated in Scripture

 

[PlainWord]

Except end of the world. When will it happen in the preterist scheme of things? I just outright reject any view where this planet just keeps on going on as it is forever without sin and death being stopped and nature restored.

So, when you go to heaven (whenever and however you get there) and receive your crown (which implies that you will be reigning), under your scenario, who will you be reigning over if the world has ended?

 

[PlainWord]

Ironically it was Paul that taught them " the dead in Christ shall rise first,followed by us alive ones"

Since rev 14 has a rapture DURING THE GT,your ENTIRE DEAL is way,way off.

Your entire doctrine,the whole thing,is debunked,defunct,and needs complete reinvention.

Not if it all happened in the first century which contained the end of the second earth age.

You see, there are three earth ages taught.

Adam to covenant given to Abraham
Abraham to Destruction of Jerusalem
Destruction of Jerusalem to now and continuing

Each earth age has in focus a single "man," Adam, Abraham and Jesus who were all transitional figures. The Bible speaks very little about the 1st and 3rd earth age. The focus of the Bible is almost exclusively on the second earth age. Each earth age lasts 2,000 years. Each earth age ended during periods of intense sin/wickedness.

 

[PlainWord]

Except end of the world. When will it happen in the preterist scheme of things? I just outright reject any view where this planet just keeps on going on as it is forever without sin and death being stopped and nature restored.

Back to this my good friend. What makes you think it is/was nature to be restored? Let's go back to the Garden and the fall:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

When they ate of the "tree," did they die on that day? No, they lived another 900+ years, right? So what died? What if it was a spiritual death that happened on that day of the original sin? At the Cross, would not that spiritual death be restored?

You see it isn't the curse that's reversed (as just about everyone wrongly believes), rather it's the spiritual death that gets reversed making a path once again to the "Tree of Life." A curse, in the OT, is the opposite of a blessing. A curse is a punishment for bad or forbidden behavior.

The "Curse" is also associated with the Law. Because of sin, those of the OT were placed under the Law. Gal 3 teaches that Christ redeems us from the Curse.

So again, it isn't the curse that's reversed or restored. Christ redeems us from the curse (punishment of sin). It's the spiritual life that's restorative in the "restoration of all things." Thorns and labor pains were part of the curse of that sin and they still continue. Does this make sense?

 

[KJV1611]

Back to this my good friend. What makes you think it is/was nature to be restored? Let's go back to the Garden and the fall:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

When they ate of the "tree," did they die on that day? No, they lived another 900+ years, right? So what died? What if it was a spiritual death that happened on that day of the original sin? At the Cross, would not that spiritual death be restored?

You see it isn't the curse that's reversed (as just about everyone wrongly believes), rather it's the spiritual death that gets reversed making a path once again to the "Tree of Life." A curse, in the OT, is the opposite of a blessing. A curse is a punishment for bad or forbidden behavior.

The "Curse" is also associated with the Law. Because of sin, those of the OT were placed under the Law. Gal 3 teaches that Christ redeems us from the Curse.

So again, it isn't the curse that's reversed or restored. Christ redeems us from the curse (punishment of sin). It's the spiritual life that's restorative in the "restoration of all things." Does this make sense?

Nobody spiritually died in the garden of Eden PW, they died physical deaths in the 1000 year day that they ate of the fruit.

 

[PlainWord]

Nobody spiritually died in the garden of Eden PW, they died physical deaths in the 1000 year day that they ate of the fruit.

That is spiritualizing the "day." I respectfully resubmit, they died spiritually on that day meaning that once they died, they did not have a clear and immediate path to heaven. Rather, their souls had to go to Sheol and wait for Christ's redemptive work. Look at this:

And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Christ is represented by the "tree of life." We see the TOL found again in Revelation:

To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Christ went where? To Paradise. Nobody comes to the Father except by Him, right? A literal tree cannot save you, only Christ can. Therefore, Christ = the TOL.

 

[KJV1611]

That is spiritualizing the "day." I respectfully resubmit, they died spiritually on that day meaning that once they died, they did not have a clear and immediate path to heaven. Rather, their souls had to go to Sheol and wait for Christ's redemptive work. Look at this:

And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Christ is represented by the "tree of life." We see the TOL found again in Revelation:

To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Christ went where? To Paradise. Nobody comes to the Father except by Him, right? A literal tree cannot save you, only Christ can. Therefore, Christ = the TOL.

It's not spirtualizing PW it's believing every word of God is right and means exactly what it says. If 1 literal day doesn't fit then it has no choice but to be the spritual version. OR you can do like you're doing and make the verse mean whatever you want it to mean. There is no such thing as a human being's spirit dying, turning evil maybe but dying no. AND that verse doesn't say anything about Adam and Eve dying spiritually.

 

[KJV1611]

Also PW the way was made from the beginning. God wasn't wringing his hands and wondering how he could save them, it was the plan for them to fall from the get go.

 

[Bogadile]

Back to this my good friend. What makes you think it is/was nature to be restored? Let's go back to the Garden and the fall:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

When they ate of the "tree," did they die on that day? No, they lived another 900+ years, right? So what died? What if it was a spiritual death that happened on that day of the original sin? At the Cross, would not that spiritual death be restored?

You see it isn't the curse that's reversed (as just about everyone wrongly believes), rather it's the spiritual death that gets reversed making a path once again to the "Tree of Life." A curse, in the OT, is the opposite of a blessing. A curse is a punishment for bad or forbidden behavior.

The "Curse" is also associated with the Law. Because of sin, those of the OT were placed under the Law. Gal 3 teaches that Christ redeems us from the Curse.

So again, it isn't the curse that's reversed or restored. Christ redeems us from the curse (punishment of sin). It's the spiritual life that's restorative in the "restoration of all things." Thorns and labor pains were part of the curse of that sin and they still continue. Does this make sense?

Why would not the curse be reversed? This world is horrible, and to say it remains like this forever is something I just do not see God doing.
This is more like atheism where death reigns forever.
If this is the restored new earth and new heaven that we are living in currently, I am not seeing it, and to be honest it is trash.

What do you do with passages that say "Death is swallowed up in victory"? Or Rev 21 in totality.

 

[PlainWord]

It's not spirtualizing PW it's believing every word of God is right and means exactly what it says. If 1 literal day doesn't fit then it has no choice but to be the spritual version. OR you can do like you're doing and make the verse mean whatever you want it to mean. There is no such thing as a human being's spirit dying, turning evil maybe but dying no. AND that verse doesn't say anything about Adam and Eve dying spiritually.

You obviously get your 1000 year/day principle from this verse:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Notice that this principle only works for God, not us. Since God promised Adam that he would die the day he ate of that tree and Adam didn't physically die, then we either have to assume the day=1,000 year principle as you're doing or we spiritualize the death. A day is always a day to Adam.

I content a spiritual death occurred, but not the spirit or soul, that's not what I mean because neither die. Spiritual death is the absence from God. Spiritual death is NEVER the literal death of the spirit or soul. At judgment, the spirit is far removed from the Father.

Fortunately it wasn't a permanent punishment for them as it will be at the final judgment when the wicked are forever removed from the Kingdom and presence of God and the Lamb. My dear friend, let me give you this verse to consider. If it doesn't alter your thinking, let's leave this topic and not divide.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Interesting, tell me more.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."

Hello Bogadile,

When in history has Jesus arrive in his glory and all the angels with him?

When were all the nations gathered before him and separated?

This judgment of the sheep and goats is an event which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. There isn't going to be many judgements of the sheep and goats, which is what you would have if this event has already taken place and that because there are surely other goats to separate from the time KJV1611 is thinking that it happened. In other words, if the separation of the sheep and the goats happened say, at the destruction of the temple, then 2000 years later there would surely need to be another separation of sheep and goats. But as I said, this is a one time judgment which takes place at the end of the age.

The truth is that, this judgment is a one time judgment which will involve those who make it alive through the entire seven years. The sheep will enter into the millennial period and repopulate it, along with those who survive of Israel and the goats will be killed.

The Lord arriving in his glory would be referring to Matt.24:30-31, which is the end of the age. That said, the world would have also had to have seen all of those signs that Christ revealed to his disciples, as well as experienced all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues of the two witnesses, the reign of the beast and much more. All of this would have to take place prior to the judgment of the sheep and goats. The following will also take place when the Lord arrives in his glory when He ends the age:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

When has the above happened?

Is the idea that the judgment of the sheep and the goats having already taken place still interesting?

 

[KJV1611]

You obviously get your 1000 year/day principle from this verse:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Notice that this principle only works for God, not us. Since God promised Adam that he would die the day he ate of that tree and Adam didn't physically die, then we either have to assume the day=1,000 year principle as you're doing or we spiritualize the death. A day is always a day to Adam.

I content a spiritual death occurred, but not the spirit or soul, that's not what I mean because neither die. Spiritual death is the absence from God. Spiritual death is NEVER the literal death of the spirit or soul. At judgment, the spirit is far removed from the Father.

Fortunately it wasn't a permanent punishment for them as it will be at the final judgment when the wicked are forever removed from the Kingdom and presence of God and the Lamb. My dear friend, let me give you this verse to consider. If it doesn't alter your thinking, let's leave this topic and not divide.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

When God said Adam would die in the day he ate the fruit, was God talking from his perspective or man's persepective? In other words was God saying his days (1000 years) or man's days? And how do we know which God meant?

God SHED the BLOOD and clothed Adam and Eve with HIS righteous sacrifice when they were naked. Do you not believe that Adam and Eve were saved by grace like RIGHTEOUS Able was saved by grace? If so then why would God abandon them if they were saved by grace?

 

[PlainWord]

Why would not the curse be reversed? This world is horrible, and to say it remains like this forever is something I just do not see God doing.
This is more like atheism where death reigns forever.
If this is the restored new earth and new heaven that we are living in currently, I am not seeing it, and to be honest it is trash.

What do you do with passages that say "Death is swallowed up in victory"? Or Rev 21 in totality.

There is the physical world where we now reside where death occurs to us all. There is heaven, which is in the spiritual realm, where we will all one day reside. I think you are confusing the two.

The "death" that gets swallowed up in victory is the death I was just discussing with KJV, the spiritual death. KJV rightly states that the soul and spirit do not die as in end. However, the spirit can be forever removed from God and that is what's known as "spiritual death." Christ restored this separation that Adam caused.

Consider the words of the wisest man in history. How do you reconcile Solomon's words with your position?

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Or the words of his father, David?

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever.

The truth is, we don't know how many more earth ages there will be when this one ends (which I think is coming soon). We have to reign over someone. Those who are last into heaven would have nobody to reign over if the earth actually and completely ends.

 

[PlainWord]

When God said Adam would die in the day he ate the fruit, was God talking from his perspective or man's persepective? In other words was God saying his days (1000 years) or man's days? And how do we know which God meant?

God SHED the BLOOD and clothed Adam and Eve with HIS righteous sacrifice when they were naked. Do you not believe that Adam and Eve were saved by grace like RIGHTEOUS Able was saved by grace? If so then why would God abandon them if they were saved by grace?

Unfortunately, the Bible gives very few details of the first earth age, just as it gives very few details on the age we are in. Can you refresh my memory on Abel? To what passage do you refer?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why would not the curse be reversed? This world is horrible, and to say it remains like this forever is something I just do not see God doing.
This is more like atheism where death reigns forever.
If this is the restored new earth and new heaven that we are living in currently, I am not seeing it, and to be honest it is trash.

What do you do with passages that say "Death is swallowed up in victory"? Or Rev 21 in totality.

Hello Bogadile,

Don't listen to any of their false teachings. Below is the future for those whose names are written in the book of life:

"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

When the Lord appears to gather his church, the dead will be resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies, i.e. bodies that will live forever and with the absence of the sinful nature. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be transformed into their immoral and glorified bodies. In another scripture Jesus said that in the resurrection we will become like the angels in heaven.

Therefore, it is not just the spiritual life that is changed, but the body, soul and spirit that will be renewed. God is not going to start eternity with people who still have the sinful nature in them. In that case, no one would be able to enter into the new Jerusalem.

These people that suggest such things are false teachers that scripture warns us about.