Not By Works

[Desertsrose]

No, I'm not saying that at all. It is more than strong enough.
The problem is the believer still has the freedom to choose not to use that power if he wants to willingly go back to his old life of unbelief and sin. I wish we were all robots that couldn't go back but that's just not the way it is.

Hi Phart,

I agree a person can go back as well.

But I believe that this person is either the 2nd or 3rd soil in the sower parable ....... he never had genuine faith.

The seed was planted in his heart, but his soil was bad soil and so he can't continue in the faith. It's impossible for him to do so because his soil won't allow the fruit to come to fruition and so he backs away eventually either because of persecution he falls away or because the worries and cares of this world makes him unfruitful.

So when someone says they were once saved and then leaves the faith, I believe they represent one of the 3 soils in the sower parable. The only one who will produce and be fruitful is the one with good soil.

I use to think that a true believer could fall away and there are many passages that caused me to believe that way. But when passages seem to contradict, I always tell myself that the scriptures are true, it's my understand that's in error. So I keep at it until I find the missing piece of the puzzle.

Because if you go through the scriptures and see what God says about the saved person, they are faithful all the way through. So that caused me to rethink what I had been taught. And when I came to the sower parable that helped explain things for me.

There are 4 types of people. Three of them don't remain faithful, only the good soil. So she I see a person fall away from the faith, they must be 1 of the three bad soils. It can't be any other way.

But I don't use osas for this very reason because let's say we have people represented in our churches that have the four different soils. And let's say we begin to preach to them that once they're saved they always will be saved. Well that just isn't true. It's only the one that preservers to the end that is saved. The one with the good soil. The others do fall away.

I could say to them and be biblically accurate that we can be assured of salvation, if we remain in the vine and if we hold fast and all the others scriptures that describe the true believers in Christ. They are the ones who remain and hold fast and abide in the vine, etc.

 

[PHart]

God gives you the faith, then seals you, and then takes away your belief in Jesus?

No. Believers don't become unbelievers because God takes away the gift of faith. Faith is the power of God given to you to know that something is true that you can not know for yourself is true (Hebrews 11:1). Then, once you know what God says is true, you then can place your trust, your believing, in what he showed you through the gracious gift of faith to be true. That is how salvation happens through faith. You trust in what God has shown you through faith to be true (Hebrews 11:1) and you receive what you believe.

When you believe you are then sealed with the Holy Spirit. Your believing is what solicits the indwelling protection of the Holy Spirit. For the former believer who falls into unbelief, he didn't fall because Jesus took away his faith. He fell because he stopped believing in what God has shown him through the gift of faith to be true. He stops trusting in the truth that God showed him.

YOU are able to break the seal that God has put on you?

You are able to stop believing.
Believing is what solicits the protection and seal of the Holy Spirit in salvation. If you stop believing you will no longer have that through which the Holy Spirit is given.

Don't confuse your own choice to stop believing and be removed from the protection of God's Spirit as a result with the inability of anything else to thrust you against your will from the seal and protection of God's Spirit.

 

[Meggido]

So let me get this straight. You hear THE Gospel. God gives you the faith to believe: Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift from God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. You accept Jesus and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

God gives you the faith, then seals you, and then takes away your belief in Jesus? YOU are able to break the seal that God has put on you?

Have you really thought this through and prayed on it?

I am confused but not upset with people that suggest in EPh 2.8-9 that the faith is the gift of God and not eternal life....eternal life is described as a gift everywhere else in the Bible and everywhere else in the Bible saving faith is described as your own, not a gift....the supernatural gift of faith found 1 Cor 12, is not at all about salvation.....

I already made a pretty long post about the definition of perosnal saving faith, earlier today....I do not personally live this life in the flesh by the Faith OF Jesus, I live in the flesh by my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me....

I do not view the gift of God spoke of in EPh 2.8-9 as faith, I view the gift as eternal life appropriated by my perosnal measure of faith, activated by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, showing me I need a savior...

 

[UnderGrace]

PHart this is not what scripture teaches.

The act of belief in the good news is a singular event, we are born again a singular event.

Unbelief cannot undo the result of being born again ...because the result is we are justified and declared righteous by God at that moment.

No. Believers don't become unbelievers because God takes away the gift of faith. Faith is the power of God given to you to know that something is true that you can not know for yourself is true (Hebrews 11:1). Then, once you know what God says is true, you then can place your trust, your believing, in what he showed you through the gracious gift of faith to be true. That is how salvation happens through faith. You trust in what God has shown you through faith and you receive what you believe.

When you believe you are then sealed with the Holy Spirit. Your believing is what solicits the indwelling protection of the Holy Spirit. For the former believer who falls into unbelief, he didn't fall because Jesus took away his faith. He fell because he stopped believing in what God has shown him through the gift of faith to be true. He stops trusting in the truth that God showed him.


You are able to stop believing.
Believing is what solicits the protection and seal of God in salvation. If you stop believing you will no longer have that through which the Holy Spirit is given.

Don't confuse your own choice to stop believing and be removed from the protection of God's Spirit with the inability of anything else to thrust you against your will from the seal and protection of God's Spirit.

 

[Meggido]

Jesus was also equally clear....

The spirit is indeed willing, but the FLESH IS WEAK

Yes Jesus did admonish us the flesh is weak, but Romans 6, 8 and 12 is the remedy to that flesh being weak issue...you are either alive to God/dead to sin and a slave to righteousness of you are dead to God and slave to SIN....this does not mean we will not struggle and never sin, because we will, but it does mean that we have power over the flesh and have crucified it and its passions...The Spirits role is more than just sealing you...he empowers you and activates enabling grace in you....Romans 8.11/Titus 2.11-15


There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

 

[UnderGrace]

On this I absolutely agree...the gift is eternal life not faith.

Faith is what we bring to receive the gift. It is not a work and therefore we cannot boast.

I am confused but not upset with people that suggest in EPh 2.8-9 that the faith is the gift of God and not eternal life....eternal life is described as a gift everywhere else in the Bible and everywhere else in the Bible saving faith is described as your own, not a gift....the supernatural gift of faith found 1 Cor 12, is not at all about salvation.....

I already made a pretty long post about the definition of perosnal saving faith, earlier today....I do not personally live this life in the flesh by the Faith OF Jesus, I live in the flesh by my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me....

I do not view the gift of God spoke of in EPh 2.8-9 as faith, I view the gift as eternal life appropriated by my perosnal measure of faith, activated by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, showing me I need a savior...

 

[Meggido]

PHart this is not what scripture teaches.

The act of belief in the good news is a singular event, we are born again a singular event.

Unbelief cannot undo the result of being born again ...because the result is we are justified and declared righteous by God at that moment.

If this is singular event of belief is not from the heart, it is just mental assent and the parable of the sower and worldly sorrow fulfills itself......and I have heard you state this....

 

[Desertsrose]

Yes Jesus did admonish us the flesh is weak, but Romans 6, 8 and 12 is the remedy to that flesh being weak issue...you are either alive to God/dead to sin and a slave to righteousness of you are dead to God and slave to SIN....this does not mean we will not struggle and never sin, because we will, but it does mean that we have power over the flesh and have crucified it and its passions...The Spirits role is more than just sealing you...he empowers you and activates enabling grace in you....Romans 8.11/Titus 2.11-15

There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

Hi Megiddo,

I agree with what you're saying here. My only question would be how do we come to understand the scriptures that talk of putting off the old man and putting on the new?

How do you explain the difference of believing in 2 natures and what you're proposing above? What do the two look like in contrast to one another?

And how do we explain what it means about the old man/new man?

Thanks!!!

 

[PennEd]

Phone issues!

 

[UnderGrace]

I only speak of the born again believer. There are only two groups the saved and the lost.

If a born again believer should come under some teaching that pulls him/her away from their walk to unbelief then it is up to God to deal with them....

But I can say this.... He does not make them unborn again,
nor does He unseal them,
nor does He take away their justified status,
nor does He uncleanse them,
nor does He disown them,
nor does He toss them in the Lake of Fire,
nor does He make them an old creation
nor does He make them unrighteous........however I am sure at some point He will deal with them according to His own wisdom and knowledge.

Only God ultimately knows who they are.

If this is singular event of belief is not from the heart, it is just mental assent and the parable of the sower and worldly sorrow fulfills itself......and I have heard you state this....

 

[PennEd]

I am confused but not upset with people that suggest in EPh 2.8-9 that the faith is the gift of God and not eternal life....eternal life is described as a gift everywhere else in the Bible and everywhere else in the Bible saving faith is described as your own, not a gift....the supernatural gift of faith found 1 Cor 12, is not at all about salvation.....

I already made a pretty long post about the definition of perosnal saving faith, earlier today....I do not personally live this life in the flesh by the Faith OF Jesus, I live in the flesh by my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me....

I do not view the gift of God spoke of in EPh 2.8-9 as faith, I view the gift as eternal life appropriated by my perosnal measure of faith, activated by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, showing me I need a savior...

That's fine brother. I just don't know how the "that" in the verse can refer to anything else than the "faith" IMMEDIATELY preceding, which God gave us.
It is further explained WHY the faith is a gift. "lest anyone should boast".

[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


[/FONT]

 

[PennEd]

If this is singular event of belief is not from the heart, it is just mental assent and the parable of the sower and worldly sorrow fulfills itself......and I have heard you state this....

Are you saying that being born is NOT a singular event?

 

[Meggido]

Hi Megiddo,

I agree with what you're saying here. My only question would be how do we come to understand the scriptures that talk of putting off the old man and putting on the new?

How do you explain the difference of believing in 2 natures and what you're proposing above? What do the two look like in contrast to one another?

And how do we explain what it means about the old man/new man?

Thanks!!!

Hey DR-

This is the hardest thing to do in the body....Colossians 3.1-17 deep dives this in great detail....2 Peter 1.1-15 shows us as well.

this revelation truth has to come with a complete change in understanding....

We can start by properly understanding Romans 1-8....Those that say Paul always wrestled with his 2 natures and state this is what he was saying in Romans 7, usually and no offense, know 1 verse in Romans 6 and it is VS 23...For the ages of sin is death....One cannot read all of Romans 6 and truly gain Holy Spirit led Revelation truth and then declare Paul struggled all the time in Romans 7....to do so would contradict everything Paul wrote in Romans 6, Colossians 3, Galatians 2 and other Epistles that talk about the new man....

Many will get upset when I say this, but it has to be said....The Romans Road to salvation is bad news, not good news and takes so much of Romans out of context....anyone using Romans road to witness should cease and desist immediately...

Many need to be taught to understand that righteousness is a gift and is position....when people really come to learn what Romans 4-5 and exactly what Romans 5.17 really means it starts to remove the mind set that the new man still falls short...


We also have to teach people they are a 3 part being, spirit, mind, body/flesh and that the new man's spirit is made perfect at conversion....

This truth befuddles people and they cannot grab it, because it is nearly to good to be true...

This truth is shown very clearly in the OT, but people miss it...One cannot read Psalms and Proverbs with seeing that they are constantly all about contrasting the wicked and the righteous......old man/new man....even the Exodus illustrates this....

The sin-consciousness doctrine keeps people bound and from being an overcomer now and keeps from liberating them to be who God says they are called them to be....and do do what he destined them to do....

At its core, it places continual self improvement over kingdom advancement.....if Satan can keep your eyes on yourself and below....he knows you will never overcome and be liberated... and continue to falls for his one single trick....deception about who you are in Christ....

Many that do not understand this truth label others they see with a powerful hand of God on their Spiritual life as fake, fraudulent and self righteous, but cannot see they, themselves have bought a lie from Satan and are engaging in false humility....and are actually only self centered, not kingdom minded about their identity in Christ...and the real truth is, they are being more self-righteous than those they perceive as such, because they are blinded by the god of this world to believe the lie they always fall short and are a wretch, when the new man is anything but in his spirit....


This is why Paul said in this Col 3.1-4

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.


If you teach/preach this truth the correct way, people on one side will accuse you of giving people a license to sin and people on the other side will say your preaching sinless-perfection, but this truth sets people free....

 

[Meggido]

Are you saying that being born is NOT a singular event?

No,I am saying we have thousands who have mental assent about Jesus and worldly sorrow they do bad things, but will not believe with their heart and confess with their mouth...

 

[Meggido]

I only speak of the born again believer. There are only two groups the saved and the lost.

If a born again believer should come under some teaching that pulls him/her away from their walk to unbelief then it is up to God to deal with them....

But I can say this.... He does not make them unborn again,
nor does He unseal them,
nor does He take away their justified status,
nor does He uncleanse them,
nor does He disown them,
nor does He toss them in the Lake of Fire,
nor does He make them an old creation
nor does He make them unrighteous........however I am sure at some point He will deal with them according to His own wisdom and knowledge.

Only God ultimately knows who they are.

The idea that only God knows the true condition of someone's salvation is not found anywhere in the Bible...The Spirit knows all things and reveals them to us and we have the mind of Christ... 1 Corinthians 2.....

This part of the Holy Spirits ministry is regarded by many today as not needed for today, since the Bible is all we need, but it is very much alive today today....and we are not talking about tongues and interpretation..

 

[Meggido]

That's fine brother. I just don't know how the "that" in the verse can refer to anything else than the "faith" IMMEDIATELY preceding, which God gave us.
It is further explained WHY the faith is a gift. "lest anyone should boast".

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

if we suggest that exercising personal saving faith is a work, then throw out the whole Bible.....and free choice...
1/3 of the angels fell because they chose to fall....they exercised their own faith and followed Lucifer....how are we any different?

Some say grace is the gift here and that has Biblical support in Romans 12.6-8...


Saving faith is something we are born with, not given at conversion....Romans 1 teaches this...

Without being insulting, if saving faith was a gift given to men, Jesus did not have to die....now think about that and reflect before you throw rocks and hurl defenses....

 

[PennEd]

if we suggest that exercising personal saving faith is a work, then throw out the whole Bible.....and free choice...
1/3 of the angels fell because they chose to fall....they exercised their own faith and followed Lucifer....how are we any different?

Some say grace is the gift here and that has Biblical support in Romans 12.6-8...


Saving faith is something we are born with, not given at conversion....Romans 1 teaches this...

Without being insulting, if saving faith was a gift given to men, Jesus did not have to die....now think about that and reflect before you throw rocks and hurl defenses....

Fair enough. But I'd like to know. If our faith doesn't come from God, where does it come from?
Do we muster it up in our own minds, with our own strength?

 

[PennEd]

if we suggest that exercising personal saving faith is a work, then throw out the whole Bible.....and free choice...
1/3 of the angels fell because they chose to fall....they exercised their own faith and followed Lucifer....how are we any different?

Some say grace is the gift here and that has Biblical support in Romans 12.6-8...


Saving faith is something we are born with, not given at conversion....Romans 1 teaches this...

Without being insulting, if saving faith was a gift given to men, Jesus did not have to die....now think about that and reflect before you throw rocks and hurl defenses....

Why would you think I'd hurl insults or rocks? You have a point of view just as valid as mine. I truly love everybody here. I can I can GUARANTEE that comes from the changed heart GOD GAVE ME. That free gift again, so I can't boast!

 

[Meggido]

Fair enough. But I'd like to know. If our faith doesn't come from God, where does it come from?
Do we muster it up in our own minds, with our own strength?

I did a lousy job of explaining this PennEd, long day...


God gives us a measure of personal saving faith when we are physically born[Romans 12.3]...but that faith is not activated to believe until the Holy Spirit convicts you.....Romans 1 says that all men are without excuse for they given faith, but have to chose to acknowledge the creator , but instead believe in the creation....if this is what you are calling a gift of faith, we might be saying the same thing....

Eph 2.8-9 is saying the free gift is salvation[saved] and 1 Cor 12 is not talking about saving faith...eternal life and positional righteousness are the gifts freely given through grace...not faith....

what I do not believe the Bible says is this...

Man has no faith at all and is saved by Grace and through a gift of Faith God gives him when he draws him in.......if you believe this...no big deal and we will not lose fellowship over a difference....

 

[Meggido]

Why would you think I'd hurl insults or rocks? You have a point of view just as valid as mine. I truly love everybody here. I can I can GUARANTEE that comes from the changed heart GOD GAVE ME. That free gift again, so I can't boast!

Was not directed at you per se...just others that cannot seem to discuss things as spiritually maturely as we are...I should probably have taken that off, sorry if it offended or indicted...not my intention