Not By Works

[PeterJens]

And this is the final outcome of this foul belief system.

Labels are a dangerous thing. If you begin to take a certain perspective and put a lot
of loaded emotion on to it, you are indoctrinating peoples thoughts to be antagonistic
against one perspective.


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:2-3

John is saying firstly, faith has led to new birth and transformation, testified to by obedience.
It is this fellowship with God, this communion which is life that goes on eternally.

It is not a promise that because you have tasted this life, if you leave it, you are part of the
promise still. Rather the opposite, to abide shows you love God and know Him and understand
His walk and reality. If you leave you demonstrate that it failed to take root for whatever
reason, and you have gone back into darkness.

But people are so desperate to deny it is possible to lose love and walk away, they will argue
to suggest love has its opposite is evil.

But in truth, the opposite of love is evil, and denying its existance and danger is the work of
the enemy in peoples lives.

It reminds me of a conversation with a muslim this morning, denying scripture and love, and
creating their own structure of revelation, against which for them there is no argument, because
they trust it, even though you can show it is all invented and illogical, they will just say the
opposite. So emotional manipulation is just that, nothing more.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am confused but not upset with people that suggest in EPh 2.8-9 that the faith is the gift of God and not eternal life....eternal life is described as a gift everywhere else in the Bible and everywhere else in the Bible saving faith is described as your own, not a gift....the supernatural gift of faith found 1 Cor 12, is not at all about salvation.....

I already made a pretty long post about the definition of perosnal saving faith, earlier today....I do not personally live this life in the flesh by the Faith OF Jesus, I live in the flesh by my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me....

I do not view the gift of God spoke of in EPh 2.8-9 as faith, I view the gift as eternal life appropriated by my perosnal measure of faith, activated by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, showing me I need a savior...

Just questions....

a. Does the description of a lost man found in Romans sound like anyone who has faith?
b. What does God dealing to everyman a measure of faith mean?
c. What does Jesus being dealt faith without measure mean?
d. Is God the source of ALL things spiritual?
e. What does FAITH to FAITH mean?
f. What does the following mean..JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of OUR faith?

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes Jesus did admonish us the flesh is weak, but Romans 6, 8 and 12 is the remedy to that flesh being weak issue...you are either alive to God/dead to sin and a slave to righteousness of you are dead to God and slave to SIN....this does not mean we will not struggle and never sin, because we will, but it does mean that we have power over the flesh and have crucified it and its passions...The Spirits role is more than just sealing you...he empowers you and activates enabling grace in you....Romans 8.11/Titus 2.11-15


There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

The first bolded seems to contradict your second bolded.........

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry, it was not to put you in a box, but that the concept comes from Calvinism, as a point of fact nothing more.

I try not to discuss other doctrines too much, I find it is enough work on CC just keeping the gospel clear, against those who want to add works to it.

I really try not to be put in a labeled box. I have no idea how to square predestination vs. free will choice. I truly believe both.

If you read my previous post, I DO believe God gives a measure of faith to all. Why you, and me, and all our other brothers and sisters in Christ Chose to act on that measure, and so many others do not, is truly above my pay grade.

God is not willing for any to perish. That verse tells me that those who do reject Him do so of their own free will. Yet I can make an equally strong case that HE was the One who chose us.

Have a Blessed day sister!

 

[PennEd]

Sorry, it was not to put you in a box, but that the concept comes from Calvinism, as a point of fact nothing more.

I try not to discuss other doctrines too much, I find it is enough work on CC just keeping the gospel clear, against those who want to add works to it.

No need to apologize sister. I was really speaking in general terms and should have made that clear. The reason I rarely use terms like Calvinism, Arminianism, Wesleyism, and a whole bunch of other "isms", is because they all have elements that I believe.

You can make arguments from Scripture to support and suppress all of them.

I am simply going to trust in the Lord to work all that out. And if He reveals a Spiritual Truth to me so be it. But I'm not going to let those differences divide us.

I just can't compromise on THE Gospel unto Salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's fine brother. I just don't know how the "that" in the verse can refer to anything else than the "faith" IMMEDIATELY preceding, which God gave us.
It is further explained WHY the faith is a gift. "lest anyone should boast".

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I agree..................

 

[gb9]

Labels are a dangerous thing. If you begin to take a certain perspective and put a lot
of loaded emotion on to it, you are indoctrinating peoples thoughts to be antagonistic
against one perspective.


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:2-3

John is saying firstly, faith has led to new birth and transformation, testified to by obedience.
It is this fellowship with God, this communion which is life that goes on eternally.

It is not a promise that because you have tasted this life, if you leave it, you are part of the
promise still. Rather the opposite, to abide shows you love God and know Him and understand
His walk and reality. If you leave you demonstrate that it failed to take root for whatever
reason, and you have gone back into darkness.

But people are so desperate to deny it is possible to lose love and walk away, they will argue
to suggest love has its opposite is evil.

But in truth, the opposite of love is evil, and denying its existance and danger is the work of
the enemy in peoples lives.

It reminds me of a conversation with a muslim this morning, denying scripture and love, and
creating their own structure of revelation, against which for them there is no argument, because
they trust it, even though you can show it is all invented and illogical, they will just say the
opposite. So emotional manipulation is just that, nothing more.

the last paragraph, some of us do this with you on a regular basis. and, the last paragraph is what you do, perfectly described, so it seems as if you got " a taste of your own medicine" !

by the way, maybe you could ask some of the muslims you talk with to stop destroying Europe, then get into the Gospel after they are not actively trying to conquer and kill you......

 

[dcontroversal]

It's the difference between a true believer and a false believer. Both say they have faith, but one is born of the Spirit and the other is not. A dead faith - a completely dead tree that's dead at the roots, and produces nothing. This is not a true believer who has been born of the Spirit.

God prunes believers, that they may bear more fruit. He doesn't prune dead trees that don't belong to Him.

The disconnect here is that (from what I've seen from some of your posts), you believe that it's possible for wheat to become tares. You believe that a believer can go from being made alive in Christ, to then ending up completely dead. What does that say about Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith? That He will fail to keep us as promised?

Tares have a dead faith. The wheat have the true faith... they're children of God, heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ (Romans 8) (and the "if indeed we suffer" bit confirming that true believers are not of the world, so we will suffer persecution as Jesus also suffered. A servant is not greater than their master. The "if indeed" being confirmation and not a condition).

The works are not for our salvation sake. God already knows who His children are. Why do we need works to prove this to Him when He already knows? The works are for non believers, that they may see our works and glorify God.... so the purpose is to point them to Jesus. These works were prepared beforehand for us.

Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.... Jesus will not fail in keeping us. It's not possible for a believer who has been made alive in Christ, to then go back to being dead inside. Sure, you might hear people say that they used to be a christian and now they're an atheist, but one doesn't go from being a new creature to then saying that there is no God. Just not possible. So the person saying this was never truly saved to begin with.

Amen and I fully agree....a child by birth will always be a child by birth.....especially when it is of INCORRUPTABLE seed and it is a work that CHRIST has began and has promised to finish........

 

[Meggido]

I did a study years ago in Romans. It was a precept study and Kay Arthur taught that Paul was speaking of himself and his struggle under the law in chapter 7. 6 and 8 make no sense if we take it that he was talking about his struggle as a born again experience in chapter 7. It's the new birth that saved him from the struggle he had with the law.

So this is why I understand about there not being the two nature battle as Paul described in Romans 7.

I'll take some time and read the references you gave. I just never understood how I can make the way I believe mesh with the verses that talk about putting off the old man. My guess though is that we're being told to put off our old manner and life and not go back to it and continue on in the faith.......continue on in the new birth.......the new person you are in Christ.

Thanks for your kind response and all the references. I'll be back probably tomorrow after reading them all. Appreciate the time it took to get them for me.

The new man and how he is raised into newness of life is described in detail in Romans 6....

You were taught Romans 6-8 the correct way...many will come against you...but do not let go of the truth....Paul is absolutely talking about his struggle under the law and not under grace in Romans 7, he gives the antidote to that struggle in Romans 8>

This is lost on people because we have marginalized the Holy Spirit to convictor and sealer unto redemption and not what his ministry does for the saint today. I am not even talking about his gifts, just his resurrection power to unleash and manifest empowering grace in our lives as Titus 2.11-15 tells us.....People get stuck at the cross and saving grace, but to enter into empowering grace, you have to see yourself as God sees you as the new man. You have been raised into newness of life, you are new creation, not the old man...now to be clear this is in reference to our spirit, our mind, will, emotions and flesh/body have to be renewed and transformed to match the spirit...this is usually rejected because of the false teaching on Romans 1-8 and that certain theologies do not agree that man is a 3 part being...

a wise old preacher mentor told me years agfo that if you avhe 2 old dogs fighting

 

[Meggido]

Interesting observation too. Have you noticed that religious people, for example catholics, never tend to "witness" to others, they don't try to convert people to catholicism. For the most part they keep to themselves... they show up to mass, partake in the sacraments, don't interact with anyone, then they leave. There is no fellowship of any sort.

Just using this as an example, because religious non believers don't have any assurance. They would not look to "convert" others when they have no assurance themselves. This is a pattern in many religions. The only ones that reach out to others are born again believers who have been set free, who have assurance of eternal life, and they want others to look to Jesus to set them free also.

Those who haven't had that inner change, who haven't been born of the Spirit, don't naturally do these things. Well this is my observation anyway, having attended the catholic church and from being around various religious people.

This observation is also noticed among many reformed denominations as well , especially Calvinism...

 

[UnderGrace]

We have been here before but it pains me not to respond.

It is concluded in

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

that eternal life is the gift.

The Bible clearly shows that saved speaks to eternal life in this passage (by grace you are saved) and we are saved through faith. Salvation/eternal life is the gift of God, it is not of us, not of works.


Ephesians 2:8-9: [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.



John 4:10: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.



John 6:37-39: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Acts 2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



The Gift of God is identified throughout scripture as eternal life itself or as the Holy Spirit who regenerates us (imparts eternal life to us) and indwells us, when we believe (Titus 3:4-7; Rom 8:9; Eph 1:13) not before (which would have to be the case if one was ‘gifted’ faith’). The measure of faith spoken to in Rom 12 does not have anything to do with receiving eternal life.

Scripture is clear. Eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God. One receives the free gift of eternal life the moment he believes in Jesus as his Savior. Once received by faith, eternal life can never be lost or forfeited.

https://redeemingmoments.com/2016/04/03/faith-is-not-the-gift-of-god/

I agree..................

 

[Ariel82]

I agree Maggedo that many do not see themselves as God does. If they did then their lives would truly be transformed because they would realise the power and glory God has created them to bem

 

[dcontroversal]

What is your point?....I fully agree salvation and eternal life are gifts of God.......I also know that faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts from God.....as a matte of fact...anything GOOD is a gift from God

We have been here before but it pains me not to respond.

It is concluded in

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

that eternal life is the gift.

The Bible clearly shows that saved speaks to eternal life in this passage (by grace you are saved) and we are saved through faith. Salvation/eternal life is the gift of God, it is not of us, not of works.


Ephesians 2:8-9: [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.



John 4:10: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.



John 6:37-39: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Acts 2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



The Gift of God is identified throughout scripture as eternal life itself or as the Holy Spirit who regenerates us (imparts eternal life to us) and indwells us, when we believe (Titus 3:4-7; Rom 8:9; Eph 1:13) not before (which would have to be the case if one was ‘gifted’ faith’). The measure of faith spoken to in Rom 12 does not have anything to do with receiving eternal life.

Scripture is clear. Eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God. One receives the free gift of eternal life the moment he believes in Jesus as his Savior. Once received by faith, eternal life can never be lost or forfeited.

https://redeemingmoments.com/2016/04/03/faith-is-not-the-gift-of-god/

 

[PeterJens]

the last paragraph, some of us do this with you on a regular basis. and, the last paragraph is what you do, perfectly described, so it seems as if you got " a taste of your own medicine" !

by the way, maybe you could ask some of the muslims you talk with to stop destroying Europe, then get into the Gospel after they are not actively trying to conquer and kill you......

gb9 - God bless you. But as always, what are you talking about?

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in
Him ( listens, understands and follows Him ) may not perish but have everlasting life.

The fact you see me as an enemy, while following the same Lord and desiring to walk in
His image, demonstrates how you cannot tell friend from foe, which suggests to me whatever
you are following it is a case of friendly fire. But as history shows, there is nothing more riled
than someone who feels their friend is destroying the very thing they hold most dear, not
realising it is they themselves that are destroying it.

God bless you, and I pray that you might see our fight is with sin and to let the Light Christ
gives us to shine in this dark place.

 

[Meggido]

We have fruit of the Spirit.

I would like to see the Bible verses that say your fruit is your disciples...I thought we were all disciples of Jesus and brethren to one another?

Fruit of the Spirit is for your character/spiritual maturity and eventually for others to eat and not for you....The world needs mature believers who produce fresh fruit...the world should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Likewise fellow saints, need mature believers and Pastors who produce fresh fruit...fellow saints should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Instead of giving you verses, dig this one up for yourself...you study well Ariel....and I am not being silly....find this out for yourself...it will open your eyes.

Hint, John 12, 1 Cor 15 and Romans 8

Jesus made what? and his own disciples made what.....

 

[dcontroversal]

gb9 - God bless you. But as always, what are you talking about?

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in
Him ( listens, understands and follows Him ) may not perish but have everlasting life.

The fact you see me as an enemy, while following the same Lord and desiring to walk in
His image, demonstrates how you cannot tell friend from foe, which suggests to me whatever
you are following it is a case of friendly fire. But as history shows, there is nothing more riled
than someone who feels their friend is destroying the very thing they hold most dear, not
realising it is they themselves that are destroying it.

God bless you, and I pray that you might see our fight is with sin and to let the Light Christ
gives us to shine in this dark place.

Nice embellishment..........par for the course with those who work their way to no where....

 

[Meggido]

I believe that both are operational - simultaneously!

It is just another example of lots of apparent contradictions in the Bible.
The fact that God is omnipresent and omniscient is not really understandable by ourselves since we caught in a timeline and can only be at one point in time at any one time - not so with God!
The nature of our salvation is another puzzle since there is a definite element of "complete" yet "not yet complete" - this one causes all sorts of problems with folk who insist on one or the other but the Bible is insistent that this duality of salvation is real.
The very nature of God, we term it the Trinity, is another puzzle that cannot be worked out by us, individuals who are limited to four dimensions, three of space and one of time, whereas God and His nature and operations are not!

To me these somewhat insoluble puzzles are actually a very comforting reminder that God is God, and as such, if we could fully work these things out, then, well, God would not be God, if He was completely understandable by mortal limited man!

I truly look forward to going to God, for the reason that all these things that are not fully comprehensible now, will become fully apparent in heaven. I worship Him now but really feel that once I fully comprehend all these things then God is going to get a lot "bigger" because we will be worshipping Him for eternity in the fullness of knowledge and truth!
And it will take eternity - and even that concept is not understandable to us who are limited by a timeline - yet we will worship and fellowship with God for eternity!

There is no really mystery or puzzle to a triune nature of God...If you look at yourself...you are a 3 part being...

spirit, mind, body.....this is confirmed in Genesis...

 

[PennEd]

We have been here before but it pains me not to respond.

It is concluded in

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

that eternal life is the gift.

The Bible clearly shows that saved speaks to eternal life in this passage (by grace you are saved) and we are saved through faith. Salvation/eternal life is the gift of God, it is not of us, not of works.


Ephesians 2:8-9: [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.



John 4:10: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.



John 6:37-39: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Acts 2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



The Gift of God is identified throughout scripture as eternal life itself or as the Holy Spirit who regenerates us (imparts eternal life to us) and indwells us, when we believe (Titus 3:4-7; Rom 8:9; Eph 1:13) not before (which would have to be the case if one was ‘gifted’ faith’). The measure of faith spoken to in Rom 12 does not have anything to do with receiving eternal life.

Scripture is clear. Eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God. One receives the free gift of eternal life the moment he believes in Jesus as his Savior. Once received by faith, eternal life can never be lost or forfeited.

https://redeemingmoments.com/2016/04/03/faith-is-not-the-gift-of-god/

Well sister, the same question to you then. As stated, it is kind of semantical, but WHERE does YOUR Faith come from if it is not a gift from God?
I mean the answer is pretty self evident. We don't conjure up that faith in our own mind and strength do we?

And why can't God give more than one gift?

 

[blue_ladybug]

When are people gonna realize that there is no such thing as hyper grace?? The bible says NOTHING about hyper grace at all. Grace is grace, and that's all. Nothing hyper to it. We cannot add to or take away from grace, just as we cannot add to or take away from the Word of God.. People who believe in hyper grace are sorely and gravely deluding themselves..

 

[Ariel82]

Fruit of the Spirit is for your character/spiritual maturity and eventually for others to eat and not for you....The world needs mature believers who produce fresh fruit...the world should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Likewise fellow saints, need mature believers and Pastors who produce fresh fruit...fellow saints should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Instead of giving you verses, dig this one up for yourself...you study well Ariel....and I am not being silly....find this out for yourself...it will open your eyes.

Hint, John 12, 1 Cor 15 and Romans 8

Jesus made what? and his own disciples made what.....

We do not have the power to make disciples alone. God sends His holy spirit before us and we are just a small part of the Body. One plants the seed, another waters and we give glory to God for the increase.

I am not trying to argue but for me the fruit of adding disciples to God's kingdom is not a personal fruit but a collective fruit of being a part of the Body of Christ.

If that makes any sense.

We are each called to do our part to grow and mature with one another to have a deeper more fullfilling relationship with God and one another.

Love is learning how to help one another be the people God created us to be.