Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Fair enough. But I'd like to know. If our faith doesn't come from God, where does it come from?
Do we muster it up in our own minds, with our own strength?

The way I see it, Where is our faith rooted in.

If it is in God, God did all the work, He did all the things necessary, and he is the trustworthy one

If your faith is not in God to do this, then your faith must turn to self. And you either must do it all yourself, or you must help God because he did not do enough.

John said it was the work of God I believe (have faith) yes it is, because God did all the work.

When I repent, I stop trusting in self, and switch my complete trust to God.

 

[Meggido]

Sorry but I don't see what he implies is in the text. Disciple making is a work of the Body of Christ and not individual members.

I have found the whole lone ranger evangelism and notches in the belt mentality to be troublesome.

Not saying that Meggido is preaching this.just that the stressing of disciplemaking as the fruit of believers cant be found in the Bible.

Older men are to mentor younger men and older women should,mentor younger women...that is watering.

Evangelism is planting the seed.

We all have special gifts and callings to work within God's body, but we aren't effective until we gain some spiritual maturity..

Would you ask a person with a gunshot wound in the leg to bandage someone else as they bleed to death?

The term "it takes a village to raise a child" comes to mind.

So Jesus made 82 disciples with the body of the church, eh? show me where....
Oh and Do not tell me he did it because he was , just Jesus....

I am stretching you here, not being obtuse or mean spirited....

 

[Meggido]

You may think so,but when we get to heaven, I believe we will find many we thought would never get there will be there, and many we thought would surly be there we find will not be.

The Bible does not teach this.....It is very clear who will and who won't.....we need to stop making ourselves feel better and telling people we cannot discern their condition....the Holy Spirit and his ministry is for today and is more than most modern theologies admit or understand...and for the record, I am not talking about His gifts or tongues or any of that stuff....I am talking about his role as helper, comforter and spirit of truth....

The ministry of the Holy Spirit did not change, stop or transition after the Apostles...

 

[UnderGrace]

I am just curious then do you believe in total depravity?

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Notice the following verses....

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Acts 26:16-18 Jesus to Saul/Paul-->But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; om darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 3:22-23 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

2nd Peter 1:1 New American Standard Bible
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

King James Bible
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The bible is replete with such comments about faith......people with NO faith, people with little faith, people with great faith, people who have been DEALT faith in measure, people who have OBTAINED faith, Hebrews 11 uses BY faith and THROUGH faith, faith that COMES by the word of God, faith that can be increased and grown etc......

ALL I am saying is the source of ANYTHING is GOD.......including faith......!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting observation too. Have you noticed that religious people, for example catholics, never tend to "witness" to others, they don't try to convert people to catholicism. For the most part they keep to themselves... they show up to mass, partake in the sacraments, don't interact with anyone, then they leave. There is no fellowship of any sort.

Just using this as an example, because religious non believers don't have any assurance. They would not look to "convert" others when they have no assurance themselves. This is a pattern in many religions. The only ones that reach out to others are born again believers who have been set free, who have assurance of eternal life, and they want others to look to Jesus to set them free also.

Those who haven't had that inner change, who haven't been born of the Spirit, don't naturally do these things. Well this is my observation anyway, having attended the catholic church and from being around various religious people.

I know alot of baptist churches which are the same way. It is not just catholic.

 

[dcontroversal]

Noah was not under the mandate of the new Covenant or the great commission, was he?

Totally agree on the numbers thing....we take numbers just to have a record...

Regardless...Noah was a preacher of righteousness, and No one believed his message.....that was the point....not so much what the message was per se....

 

[dcontroversal]

I know alot of baptist churches which are the same way. It is not just catholic.

S.S.P......Saved...satisfied....and petrified.........

 

[dcontroversal]

I am just curious then do you believe in total depravity?

I do not subscribe to TULIP if that is what your asking....but will say the following is my stance...

For by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and death passed unto all men for.....ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God
There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT
There is none good, no not one
ALL our righteousnessess are as filthy rags and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.

Only one without sin....Jesus

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The failure is not in Jesus. His ministry is perfect. That is why we are exhorted to hold firmly to our faith:

Hebrews 4:14 NASB
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[SUP]f[/SUP] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

See it? Since Jesus is great, hold fast the faith you have. Don't give up. Your confidence is well placed, so don't give up.

The sureness and perfection of Jesus' ministry gives us the confidence and the surety we need to believe to the very end in order to be saved on the day of judgment. Jesus' perfect ministry doesn't mean you can not be unsaved no matter what.

No, But eternal life does, God did not place conditions on it, If one can "lose faith" and lose eternal life, then it is not eternal life, it should rightly be called conditional life
The seal of the spirit which is said to be our pledge until the day of redemption does (it does not give any other condition in which this can be lost)
The fact it says we have been justified does
The fact it says we have been perfected, while we are being sanctified does
The fact there is no condemnation to those who believe does
The fact Jesus said whoever has faith will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, Has eternal life, and will be risen by him on the last day. does
The fact that we have been given every perfect gift does
The fact we have been born of incorruptible seed does.
The fact we have been predestined since before time, to be conformed to his image does
The fact that we who were dead in sin, has been made alive in Christ does
The fact that we do not have a spirit of fear. but an abba father does


I am sure i can come up with so many more reasons that if we are not eternally saved based on these and so many other promised God made, then God is a liar.

 

[dcontroversal]

I know alot of baptist churches which are the same way. It is not just catholic.

Will also say that the case in most churches it seems....is that very few actively witness because that is the "preacher's job"

 

[Meggido]

Will also say that the case in most churches it seems....is that very few actively witness because that is the "preacher's job"

Kinda puts on a whole different level of understanding on who the sower is now doesn't it....

 

[dcontroversal]

No, But eternal life does, God did not place conditions on it, If one can "lose faith" and lose eternal life, then it is not eternal life, it should rightly be called conditional life
The seal of the spirit which is said to be our pledge until the day of redemption does (it does not give any other condition in which this can be lost)
The fact it says we have been justified does
The fact it says we have been perfected, while we are being sanctified does
The fact there is no condemnation to those who believe does
The fact Jesus said whoever has faith will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, Has eternal life, and will be risen by him on the last day. does
The fact that we have been given every perfect gift does
The fact we have been born of incorruptible seed does.
The fact we have been predestined since before time, to be conformed to his image does
The fact that we who were dead in sin, has been made alive in Christ does
The fact that we do not have a spirit of fear. but an abba father does


I am sure i can come up with so many more reasons that if we are not eternally saved based on these and so many other promised God made, then God is a liar.

So many biblical truths must be rejected
So many words must be rejected
Verb tense must be rejected
The promises of Jesus must be rejected
The nature of God must be rejected
The power of God must be rejected

and on and on and on.....to teach the loss of salvation....!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we disagree and will move on EG, we have covered this with each other many times....If this is not your take, I respect that, but I will move on and not touch it with you.....fair enough?

Thats fine, I just put it out for others to see.. If you do not agree that is fine,, But others should see the other side. then they can chose.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - again you are not actually saying anything other than your theology differs.
Exegesis is the bringing out of theology from the scripture. Saying this involves
interpretation is not new, it is as old a preaching itself.

Now I disagree and agree with many, but I do not aggressively talk like you do.
You will not manage to progress well.

[video=youtube;rgqicv3nRdg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgqicv3nRdg[/video]

The above video is a summary about the split between Wesley (armenian) and
Whitefield ( calvanist ) and how love still bound them as brothers in the Lord.

There is much about understanding Gods work in us and through us, which is a
mystery, though we take different views, still God works in us all.

yes I do aggressively talk when people distort the Word of God, and I make no apologies for it.

and where am I supposed to " progress " ( if that was not a typo ) ?? to a point where I redefine what the Bible says so it fits with my thoughts and emotions?? to a point where I let feelings and emotions to determine reality, instead of facts, where I convince ( deceive ) myself that I do not sin, and if someone suggest that no one is sinless, I refuse to believe that that applies to me, and attack the person for saying it, instead of owning up to my own sin??

sorry peter, this is not what in would define in any way as " progress " I define it as new-age psycho babble that I want no part of. i'll take simple straight forward truths.

 

[FranC]

Will also say that the case in most churches it seems....is that very few actively witness because that is the "preacher's job"

Saw this when I was starting a new thread.
Am leaving again right after...


Catholics do not witness for two basic reasons:

1. They are not ever told to.

2. They woulnd't be able to anyway because they don't study the bible and do not know any Christian doctrine or concepts.

They're just starting to study the bible now and most of the persons I know don't understand why they'd have to study it. There are only about 60 persons in my ENTIRE area that go to bible study. That's less than 1% of the population immediately around me, to say nothing of all the other towns all around.

I attended a Discipleship class for a year and it made a big difference to my Christian walk.
Everyone should do this.
Some concepts could not be gleaned from the bible.

Bye!

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes that is true.

But even when we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He loves us, how humbling.

I do not subscribe to TULIP if that is what your asking....but will say the following is my stance...

For by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and death passed unto all men for.....ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God
There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT
There is none good, no not one
ALL our righteousnessess are as filthy rags and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.

Only one without sin....Jesus

 

[dcontroversal]

Kinda puts on a whole different level of understanding on who the sower is now doesn't it....

Make no mistake.....it fires me up to no end.....bro....I witness every chance I get....I never cram it and God always seems to open the door......Just flying from St. Louis to Dallas and then to Sydney and back 6 times I have had a chance to witness to probably 100 people or more....I love the truth and have no problem nor shame when it comes to speaking about JESUS.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible does not teach this.....It is very clear who will and who won't.....we need to stop making ourselves feel better and telling people we cannot discern their condition....the Holy Spirit and his ministry is for today and is more than most modern theologies admit or understand...and for the record, I am not talking about His gifts or tongues or any of that stuff....I am talking about his role as helper, comforter and spirit of truth....

The ministry of the Holy Spirit did not change, stop or transition after the Apostles...

I disagree, I think we have to stop trusting self and not think everyone we thinks is saved or not saved. Many people can act like Christians, And we would never know otherwise.

If you walked up on a prodigal child chances are if you did not know his past. you would never know he was a child of God. Yet he is just a much a child of God than a person going to church 4 times a week. and has been adopted.

In the same token, I think there are people in our churches who are not saved, and we may never know it, Unless they just fall of the face of the earth, And even then, We can not know if their faith was real or not. Only God does.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes that is true.

But even when we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He loves us, how humbling.

I could be wrong, but I think that is written in a present active indicative form of the verb....even while we are yet SINNING Christ died for us.....yes indeed.....we should all be humbled by that truth...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am just curious then do you believe in total depravity?

depends on how you interpret it,,

The cavanist way? No I do not agree