Not By Works

[gb9]

dc - the point of quoting scripture is to show the summary of a position.
I was providing the meaning and background behind the words. After seeing some using
only one brain cell draw the wrong conclusions, interpreting words in the wrong way, you
have got to wonder whether they have anything for breakfast.

And as I demonstrated, the word does imply obedience, listening and following is what
believing means.

see when you add words, you are NOT quoting Scripture, you are giving your opinion on what it means. now, if you use an amplified Bible verse, say so, to be clear.

but, it seems you have no desire to be clear, that seems to be why your posts are wordy , with hyperbole and figurative language. it keeps things muddled, where you try to slip stuff in, as d.c. caught you doing.

and I quite frankly do not care what you THINK scripture says, I care about the words on the page. so when you street minister, especially to non - Christians, do NOT call the Gospel by it's Name if you are giving out opinions that are not there.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Fruit of the Spirit is for your character/spiritual maturity and eventually for others to eat and not for you....The world needs mature believers who produce fresh fruit...the world should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Likewise fellow saints, need mature believers and Pastors who produce fresh fruit...fellow saints should be able to be attracted by the scent of your fruit and then come and dine....maybe they eat your peace, your goodness, your self control....

Instead of giving you verses, dig this one up for yourself...you study well Ariel....and I am not being silly....find this out for yourself...it will open your eyes.

Hint, John 12, 1 Cor 15 and Romans 8

Jesus made what? and his own disciples made what.....

Love the way you explained about the fruit of the Spirit, i did not know it was or even will be part of our character , i love little nuggets like that, thank you Meggido...xox...I tried to look for what you have asked Ariel to look for and i do not have a clue, but i am eager to learn so shall wait for her reply then learn some more...xox...

 

[dcontroversal]

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Notice the following verses....

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Acts 26:16-18 Jesus to Saul/Paul-->But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; om darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 3:22-23 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

2nd Peter 1:1 New American Standard Bible
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

King James Bible
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The bible is replete with such comments about faith......people with NO faith, people with little faith, people with great faith, people who have been DEALT faith in measure, people who have OBTAINED faith, Hebrews 11 uses BY faith and THROUGH faith, faith that COMES by the word of God, faith that can be increased and grown etc......

ALL I am saying is the source of ANYTHING is GOD.......including faith......!

 

[dcontroversal]

hearing the spoken word of Christ, not the Bible... The Greek for Word here is Rhema not logos....

Oh really....have you heard JESUS speak lately....? Last time I check the bible is the MIND of Christ and the very words of the bible are the words of Christ......you cannot distinguish between the two....the implication is the report or gospel of Christ.....that seems to be very disingenuous bro.

héma: a word, by impl. a matterOriginal Word: ῥῆμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: rhéma
Phonetic Spelling: (hray'-mah)
Short Definition: a thing spoken
Definition: a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise, (b) a thing, matter, business.

 

[Meggido]

Romans 8

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

More than Conquerors
(Psalm 44:1-26)

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

*****

No offense, though I love all the scriptures referenced I don't see how it says our "fruit" is "disciples". I do know that the FRUIT of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness and self control.

John 12.24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. [SUP]26 [/SUP]If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

1 Cor 15.20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Romans 8.29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

John 15.8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

keep going youa re doing great

 

[Ariel82]

Love the way you explained about the fruit of the Spirit, i did not know it was or even will be part of our character , i love little nuggets like that, thank you Meggido...xox...I tried to look for what you have asked Ariel to look for and i do not have a clue, but i am eager to learn so shall wait for her reply then learn some more...xox...

Sorry but I don't see what he implies is in the text. Disciple making is a work of the Body of Christ and not individual members.

I have found the whole lone ranger evangelism and notches in the belt mentality to be troublesome.

Not saying that Meggido is preaching this.just that the stressing of disciplemaking as the fruit of believers cant be found in the Bible.

Older men are to mentor younger men and older women should,mentor younger women...that is watering.

Evangelism is planting the seed.

We all have special gifts and callings to work within God's body, but we aren't effective until we gain some spiritual maturity..

Would you ask a person with a gunshot wound in the leg to bandage someone else as they bleed to death?

The term "it takes a village to raise a child" comes to mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am confused but not upset with people that suggest in EPh 2.8-9 that the faith is the gift of God and not eternal life....eternal life is described as a gift everywhere else in the Bible and everywhere else in the Bible saving faith is described as your own, not a gift....the supernatural gift of faith found 1 Cor 12, is not at all about salvation.....

I already made a pretty long post about the definition of perosnal saving faith, earlier today....I do not personally live this life in the flesh by the Faith OF Jesus, I live in the flesh by my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me....

I do not view the gift of God spoke of in EPh 2.8-9 as faith, I view the gift as eternal life appropriated by my perosnal measure of faith, activated by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, showing me I need a savior...

I agree, the gift is eternal life, In Jesus Christ our lord. Or salvation (by grace we have been saved)

Of course, is the life eternal or not? Here is where faith comes in I think, Is this life eternal like God promised, or conditional.

 

[Ariel82]

John 12.24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. [SUP]26 [/SUP]If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

1 Cor 15.20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Romans 8.29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

John 15.8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

keep going youa re doing great

That just tells us that we must first die (let our flesh and desires for this world go) before we can truly be born again and live the life God intends for us to live.

Firstfruits is the change in our spirit..,later we will get resurrected bodies.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sorry but I don't see what he implies is in the text. Disciple making is a work of the Body of Christ and not individual members.

I have found the whole lone ranger evangelism and notches in the belt mentality to be troublesome.

Not saying that Meggido is preaching this.just that the stressing of disciplemaking as the fruit of believers cant be found in the Bible.

Older men are to mentor younger men and older women should,mentor younger women...that is watering.

Evangelism is planting the seed.

We all have special gifts and callings to work within God's body, but we aren't effective until we gain some spiritual maturity..

Would you ask a person with a gunshot wound in the leg to bandage someone else as they bleed to death?

The term "it takes a village to raise a child" comes to mind.

Paul was clear....one plants, one waters but it is God that gives the increase......ALL glory to God.......I have heard men boast...well I have won xxxx number to the LORD like it was some great deed....NOT that I AM dissing leading someone to the LORD....but to boast of numbers is foolish...it is God that gives the increase and lest we all forget......NOAH preached 120 years and won how many? Just saying and NOT implying anyone is boasting of numbers........

 

[Meggido]

Oh really....have you heard JESUS speak lately....? Last time I check the bible is the MIND of Christ and the very words of the bible are the words of Christ......you cannot distinguish between the two....this implication is the report or gospel of Christ.....that seems to be very disingenuous bro.

héma: a word, by impl. a matterOriginal Word: ῥῆμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: rhéma
Phonetic Spelling: (hray'-mah)
Short Definition: a thing spoken
Definition: a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise, (b) a thing, matter, business.

The Bible is not the only thing that speaks to you today, is it? Does the Holy Spirit speak to you without the Bible today?..Does Jesus speak to us through his Holy Spirit , even today? He does to me all the time....

The Bible speaks to us today for sure bro, but the real disingenuous act is believing that is all we have. The Spirit speaks to men today just as he did at Pentecost and after, but we must tune our minds and spiritual ears to hear him....

Now what is the difference between the Greek words Rhema and Logos? they are 2 very different things and are very distinguishable

John 1.1 is not the rhema word of God it is the logos, and the 2 are very different and very distinguishable....I say this with respect, so it is not misunderstood...you are an ardent student of the word....I know you know this....

 

[Meggido]

That just tells us that we must first die (let our flesh and desires for this world go) before we can truly be born again and live the life God intends for us to live.

Firstfruits is the change in our spirit..,later we will get resurrected bodies.

keep digging, what is fruit....what was Jesus' fruit?

 

[Meggido]

Paul was clear....one plants, one waters but it is God that gives the increase......ALL glory to God.......I have heard men boast...well I have won xxxx number to the LORD like it was some great deed....NOT that I AM dissing leading someone to the LORD....but to boast of numbers is foolish...it is God that gives the increase and lest we all forget......NOAH preached 120 years and won how many? Just saying and NOT implying anyone is boasting of numbers........

Noah was not under the mandate of the new Covenant or the great commission, was he?

Totally agree on the numbers thing....we take numbers just to have a record...

 

[Magenta]

As Christians, we are exhorted to bear fruit.

We know we are not trees, but only {metaphorical} branches, offshoots of the true vine, Jesus Christ. I believe He was the {metaphorical} tree of Life placed in the garden of Eden; He holds the keys to life and death; all life is in Him; He is author and giver of life etc, and eternal life is promised to those who surrender to and abide in Him (John 15:4-5).

The fruit we are to bear has different aspects to it. One is character building: the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Peter adds to this: make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately.

So our life surrendered to God, and our works through faith are fruit, and so are people who come to Christ through us (Rom 1:13), and there is also the fruit of our lips as we praise God and witness to others (Heb 13:15).

These are good fruits, partaken of when aligned with the will of God.

Evil fruits would be the result of disobeying God, defying God, following self will in opposition to God's will, severing ourselves from fellowship with Him, etc. That is the fruit Adam and Eve bore and ate (lived). They followed the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life, in turning away from God after being in fellowship with Him. It is what we all do before being regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God.

Proverbs 11:20 says, “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who is wise wins souls.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes Jesus did admonish us the flesh is weak, but Romans 6, 8 and 12 is the remedy to that flesh being weak issue...you are either alive to God/dead to sin and a slave to righteousness of you are dead to God and slave to SIN....this does not mean we will not struggle and never sin, because we will, but it does mean that we have power over the flesh and have crucified it and its passions...The Spirits role is more than just sealing you...he empowers you and activates enabling grace in you....Romans 8.11/Titus 2.11-15


There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

Paul did not write romans 7 for nothing, (it is not his presaved state as many want to say) He spoke of his present state (thus the present tense verbs) of when he was writing the very words he wrote. and the battle we all have daily, The more mature in Christ we get, the less this battle effects us, But it is still there, to deny it is to risk not looking for it, and to risk failing to mature. or think you are more mature than you are.

 

[Meggido]

That just tells us that we must first die (let our flesh and desires for this world go) before we can truly be born again and live the life God intends for us to live.

Firstfruits is the change in our spirit..,later we will get resurrected bodies.

Unless something dies it cannot bear much fruit.....it is not talking about fruit of the spirit here, is it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's fine brother. I just don't know how the "that" in the verse can refer to anything else than the "faith" IMMEDIATELY preceding, which God gave us.
It is further explained WHY the faith is a gift. "lest anyone should boast".

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Hey Brother, I see this as saying we have been SAVED (the gift) by faith, not of ourselves (works) where salvation is the gift.

 

[PeterJens]

gb9 - again you are not actually saying anything other than your theology differs.
Exegesis is the bringing out of theology from the scripture. Saying this involves
interpretation is not new, it is as old a preaching itself.

Now I disagree and agree with many, but I do not aggressively talk like you do.
You will not manage to progress well.

[video=youtube;rgqicv3nRdg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgqicv3nRdg[/video]

The above video is a summary about the split between Wesley (armenian) and
Whitefield ( calvanist ) and how love still bound them as brothers in the Lord.

There is much about understanding Gods work in us and through us, which is a
mystery, though we take different views, still God works in us all.

 

[PennEd]

The faith at the point of salvation, I cannot see as being a gift from God, that was not my experience, although experience is subjective so I will leave that aside.

Faith at the point of salvation is believing the gospel, God does not do that for us, we have to believe.

The word conjure is not appropriate, we do make a decision to believe, this belief is faith in what God says is true, that we are totally lost and we need a Saviour. I choose to believe, that is not a boast because faith is not a work and all can choose to believe so I have done nothing beyond what any other person can do.

Our faith pleases God.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6

If faith is a gift, and grace is from God and eternal life is from God then the statement above is a lie and God is only a master puppeteer choosing who to save and who to damn.

Now as a born again believer Romans 12 twelve tells about a measure of faith given to the believer, that is different, that is for service.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. To continue would be to run over the same old ground. I believe God gave, and by definition, giving means it's a gift I didn't earn, faith.

I absolutely believe that I chose to act on that faith that HE gave me, and believed THE Gospel. BUT I couldn't do that unless HE gave me the faith to.

I'll give you a quick run down of how I believed.

My whole family was/is catholic. I went to 8 yrs of catholic school. Took (really forced) my timecard each week and punched in for mass. Was filled with the heresies of catholicism. Then wanted NOTHING to do with church, and although I knew there was God, proceeded to put ME on the throne of my life.

Fast forward 10-15 yrs and my brother who became born again and attended a Christian Non-denom, spoke to me about Jesus and the Gospel, and asked me to attend a service.

It was some time later I decided to go. I STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHY I WENT!!

From the moment I stepped in, I KNEW there was something different going on that I'd never experienced in a catholic church.
The HOLY SPIRIT was Present!!

I went several more times, even though at first my wife didn't want to go, and acknowledged Jesus as Lord, confessing my sin, and KNOWING He Lives after His resurrection!

I wish I could tell you "I served happily ever after", but that is another story.

The point is, I really had no reason to go to that Church. I heard my brother talk, I responded, BUT it HAD to be the Lord who drew me there.

So I don't know what to tell ya. I LOVE Jesus more today than yesterday, but not as much as tomorrow!! LOL

 

[Meggido]

Paul did not write romans 7 for nothing, (it is not his presaved state as many want to say) He spoke of his present state (thus the present tense verbs) of when he was writing the very words he wrote. and the battle we all have daily, The more mature in Christ we get, the less this battle effects us, But it is still there, to deny it is to risk not looking for it, and to risk failing to mature. or think you are more mature than you are.

we disagree and will move on EG, we have covered this with each other many times....If this is not your take, I respect that, but I will move on and not touch it with you.....fair enough?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The idea that only God knows the true condition of someone's salvation is not found anywhere in the Bible...The Spirit knows all things and reveals them to us and we have the mind of Christ... 1 Corinthians 2.....

This part of the Holy Spirits ministry is regarded by many today as not needed for today, since the Bible is all we need, but it is very much alive today today....and we are not talking about tongues and interpretation..

You may think so,but when we get to heaven, I believe we will find many we thought would never get there will be there, and many we thought would surly be there we find will not be.