Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

You can't live without us...... admit it ....

I really do not like second hand news ...I like to get it straight from the source itself.

2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that the servant of God[SUP][a][/SUP] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Saw this when I was starting a new thread.
Am leaving again right after...


Catholics do not witness for two basic reasons:

1. They are not ever told to.

2. They woulnd't be able to anyway because they don't study the bible and do not know any Christian doctrine or concepts.

They're just starting to study the bible now and most of the persons I know don't understand why they'd have to study it. There are only about 60 persons in my ENTIRE area that go to bible study. That's less than 1% of the population immediately around me, to say nothing of all the other towns all around.

I attended a Discipleship class for a year and it made a big difference to my Christian walk.
Everyone should do this.
Some concepts could not be gleaned from the bible.

Bye!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Will also say that the case in most churches it seems....is that very few actively witness because that is the "preacher's job"

or the deacons when they go out on visitation.

 

[UnderGrace]

I see what you mean...let me check...

here is what the KJV bible says....

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It is important because I know there are those that teach we have to stop sinning to be saved.
Like that makes any sense!!!

I could be wrong, but I think that is written in a present active indicative form of the verb....even while we are yet SINNING Christ died for us.....yes indeed.....we should all be humbled by that truth...

 

[PeterJens]

yes I do aggressively talk when people distort the Word of God, and I make no apologies for it.

and where am I supposed to " progress " ( if that was not a typo ) ?? to a point where I redefine what the Bible says so it fits with my thoughts and emotions?? to a point where I let feelings and emotions to determine reality, instead of facts, where I convince ( deceive ) myself that I do not sin, and if someone suggest that no one is sinless, I refuse to believe that that applies to me, and attack the person for saying it, instead of owning up to my own sin??

sorry peter, this is not what in would define in any way as " progress " I define it as new-age psycho babble that I want no part of. i'll take simple straight forward truths.

gb9 - The more I learn the more humble I become as I miss various points that others
have balanced and thought through. There are many issues that have developed and then
balanced through out history, which I need to appreciate.

You obviously are beyond the body and its contemplations.
Now I have been exposed to anglicans, brethren, congregationalists, house church, charismatic,
baptist. I appreciate many strengths and can see weaknesses in these positions.
You appear to be beyond this, which is certainly a move away from traditional faith.

But I wonder if you are aware of this.

 

[dcontroversal]

or the deacons when they go out on visitation.

Exactly...........and on occasion (like my grandma) a day of ladies visitations.....HAH

 

[Ariel82]

The Bible is not the only thing that speaks to you today, is it? Does the Holy Spirit speak to you without the Bible today?..Does Jesus speak to us through his Holy Spirit , even today? He does to me all the time....

The Bible speaks to us today for sure bro, but the real disingenuous act is believing that is all we have. The Spirit speaks to men today just as he did at Pentecost and after, but we must tune our minds and spiritual ears to hear him....

Now what is the difference between the Greek words Rhema and Logos? they are 2 very different things and are very distinguishable

John 1.1 is not the rhema word of God it is the logos, and the 2 are very different and very distinguishable....I say this with respect, so it is not misunderstood...you are an ardent student of the word....I know you know this....

Spoken word versus written word?

 

[Meggido]

I disagree, I think we have to stop trusting self and not think everyone we thinks is saved or not saved. Many people can act like Christians, And we would never know otherwise.

If you walked up on a prodigal child chances are if you did not know his past. you would never know he was a child of God. Yet he is just a much a child of God than a person going to church 4 times a week. and has been adopted.

In the same token, I think there are people in our churches who are not saved, and we may never know it, Unless they just fall of the face of the earth, And even then, We can not know if their faith was real or not. Only God does.

Disagreement is fine, but I never stated I trusted in myself to discern, did I? I said I let the Holy Spirit show and lead me....Are you stating the Holy Spirit does not reveal things to us anymore?

Paul & Peter correctly discerned people and their motives, did this just stop when the Bible got printed up? I mean really EG, are you saying the same Holy Spirit then , is not the same Holy Spirit now...

Allowing the Spirit to discern for us and help us identify conditions of people is paramount in our walk...This will hurt, but if you allow people to stay in their sinful condition then later claim ignorance, that you had no clue about their condition at BEMA seat is going to be rough, Jesus is going to have serious issues with any teacher/Pastor that misses this....

We like to say we do not know because we do not want to be accused or engage in judgement....if you are Godly enough to let the Holy Spirit seal you, you better be Godly enough to let him work in you and through you....the problem is and thanks to many Pentecostal and Charismatic foolishness and deceit and trouble over 2 gifts[tongues and interpretation], many have not been properly taught the role and ministry of the Holy Spirit and who he is....worse, we do not teach people how to be led by the Spirit, listen to what he says and then operate in instant obedience to his directives......many simply state what you do out of complete ignorance....no offense.....The Bible tells us that when someone speaks to someone under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, the receiving person knows it, because it confirms what they already know.....

Saying we do not know people are saved or not is an excuse because we actually do trust yourself and not the leading of the Holy Spirit and acting boldly, yet in love. to what he has revealed to you...I will state that I spend much time in prayer, listening and fasting before approaching anyone about their condition.



John 14.16, 25-26

[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. [SUP]25 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15.25-26

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16.5-15

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; [SUP]9 [/SUP]concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; [SUP]11 [/SUP]and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[dcontroversal]

Saw this when I was starting a new thread.
Am leaving again right after...


Catholics do not witness for two basic reasons:

1. They are not ever told to.

2. They woulnd't be able to anyway because they don't study the bible and do not know any Christian doctrine or concepts.

They're just starting to study the bible now and most of the persons I know don't understand why they'd have to study it. There are only about 60 persons in my ENTIRE area that go to bible study. That's less than 1% of the population immediately around me, to say nothing of all the other towns all around.

I attended a Discipleship class for a year and it made a big difference to my Christian walk.
Everyone should do this.
Some concepts could not be gleaned from the bible.

Bye!

Yeah...I do not recall referencing Catholics........although I will say....a family I am closely connected to in Australia buried a family member yesterday....he happened to be Catholic and the priest after numerous hail Mary's and the "Eucharist" implored the people to pray the man into heaven......religion at it's worst........and as tragic as can be.

 

[Meggido]

Thats fine, I just put it out for others to see.. If you do not agree that is fine,, But others should see the other side. then they can chose.

Good stuff

 

[Meggido]

Make no mistake.....it fires me up to no end.....bro....I witness every chance I get....I never cram it and God always seems to open the door......Just flying from St. Louis to Dallas and then to Sydney and back 6 times I have had a chance to witness to probably 100 people or more....I love the truth and have no problem nor shame when it comes to speaking about JESUS.....

I know you do...I was not singling you out or anything, just that some people think the sower is God or a preacher, and you correctly stated it is all of us...

 

[dcontroversal]

Spoken word versus written word?

And both have equal power in my mind.....Jesus as a man is the physical manifestation of the word in man....the bible states clearly that EVERY word (spoken or written) is under inspiration and profitable for.......even Jesus said that the words he spoke were the words of the his Heavenly Father that sent him.........

 

[Desertsrose]

I agree. I dislike the term hyper grace...

The Bible does say that grace was and is being turned into lasciviousness [Jude 4]

This means that certain men teach that it is ok to do whatever you want to and live like hell, because Grace covers the sin. It also means that people put grace above Jesus Christ and what he did for them and we are starting to see that and big time in several well known public ministries...

So maybe we need a new term, a biblical term ......... lascivious grace?

 

[Ariel82]

So Jesus made 82 disciples with the body of the church, eh? show me where....
Oh and Do not tell me he did it because he was , just Jesus....

I am stretching you here, not being obtuse or mean spirited....

I feel like we are talking past one another...,the sower is God....we are just caretakers entrusted to tending the fields,

12 apostles plus 70 people went to preach the gospel = 82

What is your point?

I believe Jesus made every born again person.

Therefore you should at the very least include Saul/Paul in your tally, though I include all who are members of His body.

 

[dcontroversal]

So maybe we need a new term, a biblical term ......... lascivious grace?

I go for what has been given.....just simply grace.......

 

[Ariel82]

And both have equal power in my mind.....Jesus as a man is the physical manifestation of the word in man....the bible states clearly that EVERY word (spoken or written) is under inspiration and profitable for.......even Jesus said that the words he spoke were the words of the his Heavenly Father that sent him.........

I believe the spoken word holds more power because it is often directly from the heart of the person who speaks it.

However one word written and inspired by the Holy spirit has more power than a million spoken without the Holy spirit wisdom and grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disagreement is fine, but I never stated I trusted in myself to discern, did I? I said I let the Holy Spirit show and lead me....Are you stating the Holy Spirit does not reveal things to us anymore?

Paul & Peter correctly discerned people and their motives, did this just stop when the Bible got printed up? I mean really EG, are you saying the same Holy Spirit then , is not the same Holy Spirit now...

Allowing the Spirit to discern for us and help us identify conditions of people is paramount in our walk...This will hurt, but if you allow people to stay in their sinful condition then later claim ignorance, that you had no clue about their condition at BEMA seat is going to be rough, Jesus is going to have serious issues with any teacher/Pastor that misses this....

We like to say we do not know because we do not want to be accused or engage in judgement....if you are Godly enough to let the Holy Spirit seal you, you better be Godly enough to let him work in you and through you....the problem is and thanks to many Pentecostal and Charismatic foolishness and deceit and trouble over 2 gifts[tongues and interpretation], many have not been properly taught the role and ministry of the Holy Spirit and who he is....worse, we do not teach people how to be led by the Spirit, listen to what he says and then operate in instant obedience to his directives......many simply state what you do out of complete ignorance....no offense.....The Bible tells us that when someone speaks to someone under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, the receiving person knows it, because it confirms what they already know.....

Saying we do not know people are saved or not is an excuse because we actually do trust yourself and not the leading of the Holy Spirit and acting boldly, yet in love. to what he has revealed to you...I will state that I spend much time in prayer, listening and fasting before approaching anyone about their condition.



John 14.16, 25-26

[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. [SUP]25 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15.25-26

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16.5-15

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; [SUP]9 [/SUP]concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; [SUP]11 [/SUP]and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

again, we will have to disagree. as friends,

I am not out to try to figure out who is saved and who is not, I do not think that is part of my job as a believer, I need to find the lost. If people are going to church, or appear to be walking, I will treat them accordingly, and if in my sphere of influence will try to help grow.

as for the passages you shared, this is the way I see them,

John 14, The helper will teach us all things concerning God and Jesus, and remind us of things Jesus said

John 15, says he will testify of Christ, Not of other people who may or not be saved

John 16, says that HS will show us biblical truth, and help us understand that,

I do not see in any of those passages where Jesus said the HS will tell me who is saved and who is not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So maybe we need a new term, a biblical term ......... lascivious grace?

No such thing,, A liscentious person thinks they have earned salvation too. By saying a prayer and they earned the right to live however they want.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - The more I learn the more humble I become as I miss various points that others
have balanced and thought through. There are many issues that have developed and then
balanced through out history, which I need to appreciate.

You obviously are beyond the body and its contemplations.
Now I have been exposed to anglicans, brethren, congregationalists, house church, charismatic,
baptist. I appreciate many strengths and can see weaknesses in these positions.
You appear to be beyond this, which is certainly a move away from traditional faith.

But I wonder if you are aware of this.

no, I am not aware of this. in fact, I have no clue what you mean here. ( I doubt if anyone else does either ). nor do I care.

this has NOTHING to do with my post #19774, on that post I commented on your behavior, which you exhibit on a regular basis.

 

[Desertsrose]

Sorry but I don't see what he implies is in the text. Disciple making is a work of the Body of Christ and not individual members.

I have found the whole lone ranger evangelism and notches in the belt mentality to be troublesome.

Not saying that Meggido is preaching this.just that the stressing of disciplemaking as the fruit of believers cant be found in the Bible.

Older men are to mentor younger men and older women should,mentor younger women...that is watering.

Evangelism is planting the seed.

We all have special gifts and callings to work within God's body, but we aren't effective until we gain some spiritual maturity..

Would you ask a person with a gunshot wound in the leg to bandage someone else as they bleed to death?

The term "it takes a village to raise a child" comes to mind.

Hi Ariel,

The first thing that came to mind when Megiddo shared this was the passage in Matthew.

Matthew 13:23
And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

We all understand about the fruit of the Spirit and what's produce in us is the total opposite of the fruit of the carnal flesh. We have this fruit immediately and we continue to grow in it as our fruit matures.

I think Megiddo is going further......what do we do with that fruit? Does that fruit of the Spirit take that fruit mentioned in Galatians even further? Is there more fruit produced, through the fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit is for a purpose. I guess we can begin to bring works into this example. We don't sit around producing fruit so that we can all admire each others fruit. What do we do with love and kindness? What do we do with patience and not keeping a record of wrongs?

The fruit is expressed to other believers, but it's also expressed to a lost world who need to see Jesus in us, the hope of glory. This is the way others are saved, through the fruit of the Spirit. We love people into the kingdom. The great commission is to go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to obey all of the commandment of the Lord.

So with the fruit of the Spirit, we are to go out into the world and saves souls. So in the Matthew scripture we see that the fruit each one of us brings forth are saved lives.....some one hundred fold, some 60, some 30. The fruit of the Gospel of the Kingdom is saved souls. \o/ Glory Hallelujah!!!

 

[Ariel82]

So "bearing fruit" is an analogy to "birthing children"?