Sabbath

[oldethennew]

His Grace becomes our only real strength/bread after 'conversion', this is what our
brand new lives become, it's about pleasing Him and obeying His every command -
when we do these things, we begin to feel our Holy Connection and Bond with
Him becoming stronger and stronger... our Love for Him grows and grows through
our over-coming what used to separate us...

 

[gotime]

I didn't disagree with any of your points. But they are a little simplistic and leave some important stuff out.

They are simplistic for the sake of focus.

Now I said I would be logical with this approach. So here is my point in so doing.

point 1 was the law shows sin by that which is good. That is simple for example thou shalt not steal is a good things to steal is to sin. apply the same for all 10 including the Sabbath commandment. To not keep the day is sin according to the law.

Point 2 the law is for both Jew and Gentile, Simple again that means that all 10 are for all people that includes the Sabbath.

Point 3 keeping the law is impossible for slaves to the law of sin. that is a problem, If i can't keep the law then that is what shows me I need saving. Take note, its my inability to keep the law that shows I need saving. Saving from what? Form my inability to keep the law and thus my sin. So salvation must involve a process of where I am changed and enabled to keep the law.

It can not be any other way if logic is to be applied here. I break the the law which is sin. the law reveals that fact that I sin and break the law. I try to keep it and fail thus I find I need saving. So I am now looking for a saviour that can save me from sinning/breaking the law. I am looking for someone who can do for me what I can't do for myself. I am looking for someone who can cause me to keep the law somehow. Anything short of this is no salvation at all. If I am left breaking the law then I am still in sin and not saved. If the law is taken away it changes nothing as I am still sinning I just don't have writing telling me anymore.

Point 4, Christ happens to be the only one who has the ability to do the above. He not only forgives by his death, but he transforms by the power of His Resurrection. Thus in Christ I find exactly what I need, Mercy for the sins I have committed and freedom from committing sin in the future.

Point 5 is connected. It is indeed Sin/breaking the law that Jesus saves us from. Sin as well established,is breaking the law and thus to be saved from sin is to be saved from breaking the law. Thus there is only one logical conclusion based on the revelation of scripture.

Christ Jesus saves by transforming disobedient sinners to obedient saints so to speak. This absolutely has to include the Sabbath as the Sabbath day is given in the law sin not to keep it both to Jew and Gentile as you have confessed. Thus it is as binding on us as it was on Israel. Not as a law to earn salvation but as a reprover of sin and showing us our need of a saviour.

Anything less than being empower to be obedient to the law is not salvation at all because it does not address the problem.

 

[Grandpa]

Reconciled nothing changes..... all are good and True but do not nul anything... they reinforce... but if you come to believe they are........
against Keeping the Commandments of God and having the Testimony of the Messiah then you have not the Truth of GOD in you.

Scripture is not against Scripture but only understanding.. precept upon precept.... now after all your verses comes Revelation.... if what you believe is True then it would not be written... Matthew, Galatians and Romans comes after the Old Testament.... So it is no surprise those things are written.... We need to hear and receive them.

Do you know the Father and the Son?

I realize scripture is not against scripture. I just wondered how you reconciled those scriptures.

I guess you don't. You just disregard them.

 

[Grandpa]

They are simplistic for the sake of focus.

Now I said I would be logical with this approach. So here is my point in so doing.

point 1 was the law shows sin by that which is good. That is simple for example thou shalt not steal is a good things to steal is to sin. apply the same for all 10 including the Sabbath commandment. To not keep the day is sin according to the law.

Point 2 the law is for both Jew and Gentile, Simple again that means that all 10 are for all people that includes the Sabbath.

Point 3 keeping the law is impossible for slaves to the law of sin. that is a problem, If i can't keep the law then that is what shows me I need saving. Take note, its my inability to keep the law that shows I need saving. Saving from what? Form my inability to keep the law and thus my sin. So salvation must involve a process of where I am changed and enabled to keep the law.

It can not be any other way if logic is to be applied here. I break the the law which is sin. the law reveals that fact that I sin and break the law. I try to keep it and fail thus I find I need saving. So I am now looking for a saviour that can save me from sinning/breaking the law. I am looking for someone who can do for me what I can't do for myself. I am looking for someone who can cause me to keep the law somehow. Anything short of this is no salvation at all. If I am left breaking the law then I am still in sin and not saved. If the law is taken away it changes nothing as I am still sinning I just don't have writing telling me anymore.

Point 4, Christ happens to be the only one who has the ability to do the above. He not only forgives by his death, but he transforms by the power of His Resurrection. Thus in Christ I find exactly what I need, Mercy for the sins I have committed and freedom from committing sin in the future.

Point 5 is connected. It is indeed Sin/breaking the law that Jesus saves us from. Sin as well established,is breaking the law and thus to be saved from sin is to be saved from breaking the law. Thus there is only one logical conclusion based on the revelation of scripture.

Christ Jesus saves by transforming disobedient sinners to obedient saints so to speak. This absolutely has to include the Sabbath as the Sabbath day is given in the law sin not to keep it both to Jew and Gentile as you have confessed. Thus it is as binding on us as it was on Israel. Not as a law to earn salvation but as a reprover of sin and showing us our need of a saviour.

Anything less than being empower to be obedient to the law is not salvation at all because it does not address the problem.

The Lord Jesus didn't save us so we could go back to our work at the law.

That is a mis-representation of who Christ is and what He does for us. Its also a mis-representation of what Christianity is.

Keeping a saturday sabbath according to the OT as a Christian is a farce. Our Rest is in Christ, not in the 10 commandments the ministry of Death and Condemnation.

When a Christian is saved they aren't perfected yet. So they have the same ability to fulfill the 10 commandments through their carnal work and carnal understanding as before they were saved.

But when a Christian Rests in Christ then it is Christ and the Holy Spirit that fulfill the actual spiritual law in them.

Galatians 5:1 [FONT=&quot]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

[/FONT]This one verse refutes all your conclusions about Christians supposedly going back to their work at the law.

Christians are literally dead to the law. They no longer look back to it to try and work at it for any reason. Otherwise they would be entangling themselves again in the yoke of bondage.

 

[Grace777x70]

Going back to the Law for living after coming to Christ is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:14-18 is saying that to this day people that read Moses and in Moses is the 10 commandments - including the 4th one ( I think the Sabbath is the 4th one? )- there is a veil that covers their eyes and they can't see the real substance which is Christ.

The Law is a mere shadow of the real thing. When we turn to the Lord - the veil is lifted and we can now behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror and the Hoy Spirit transforms us. - not the carnal keeping of Moses's law.

Going back to the Law for life and transformation is committing spiritual adultery on the Lord. Romans 7:1-6 - we have died to the Law so that we could be joined to another - our Lord Jesus.

Going back to the Law after coming to Christ is like a husband looking at the pictures that his wife sent to him before they were married - but now he is married to his wife and she wants him to be with "her" now - not him looking at her pictures.

The Law was merely a picture, a type of the reality which is Christ and He is in us now and we are to be led by the Holy Spirit because we are now children of God.

Don't let anyone try to pervert the gospel of the grace of Christ. Paul had his Judaizers come in after he preached the gospel to try to get people to go now and follow the Law. He had some very strong words to say about these types. These Judaizers are around in this day and age too.

 

[Gabriel2020]

The law is good to those that have been saved, but a curse to the wicked because they cannot obey them.

 

[LoveGodForever]

The law is good to those that have been saved, but a curse to the wicked because they cannot obey them.

Nice post it sums up the Gospel.

God bless

 

[LoveGodForever]

Going back to the Law for living after coming to Christ is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus Christ.Cor 3:14-18 is saying that to this day people that read Moses and in Moses is the 10 commandments - including the 4th one ( I think the Sabbath is the 4th one? )- there is a veil that covers their eyes and they can't see the real substance which is Christ. The Law is a mere shadow of the real thing. When we turn to the Lord - the veil is lifted and we can now behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror and the Hoy Spirit transforms us. - not the carnal keeping of Moses's law. Going back to the Law for life and transformation is committing spiritual adultery on the Lord. Romans 7:1-6 - we have died to the Law so that we could be joined to another - our Lord Jesus.Going back to the Law after coming to Christ is like a husband looking at the pictures that his wife sent to him before they were married - but now he is married to his wife and she wants him to be with "her" now - not him looking at her pictures.The Law was merely a picture, a type of the reality which is Christ and He is in us now and we are to be led by the Holy Spirit because we are now children of God.Don't let anyone try to pervert the gospel of the grace of Christ. Paul had his Judaizers come in after he preached the gospel to try to get people to go now and follow the Law. He had some very strong words to say about these types. These Judaizers are around in this day and age too.

Here you go.... already answered for you in these posts below (linked)

Col 2 and Shadows of things to come (1)

Col 2 and Shadows of things to come (2)

Colossians 2 (a must read God's Word)

Counterfeit Gospel


Hope this helps

 

[Grace777x70]

Don't let anyone try to pervert the gospel of the grace of Christ. Paul had his Judaizers come in after he preached the gospel to try to get people to go now and follow the Law. He had some very strong words to say about these types. These Judaizers are around in this day and age too.



Exhibit "A".....

 

[gotime]

The Lord Jesus didn't save us so we could go back to our work at the law. This is a straw man argument. I have not said anywhere that Jesus does this. so this is irrelevant to the conversation and offers no insight.

That is a mis-representation of who Christ is and what He does for us. Its also a mis-representation of what Christianity is.

Keeping a saturday sabbath according to the OT as a Christian is a farce. Our Rest is in Christ, not in the 10 commandments the ministry of Death and Condemnation. Again straw man, you counter here our rest in Christ with the 10 commandments. I do not nore have I argued any such point. We can sure deal with that issue at some point If you would like but lets stay to one place for now.

When a Christian is saved they aren't perfected yet. So they have the same ability to fulfill the 10 commandments through their carnal work and carnal understanding as before they were saved.

But when a Christian Rests in Christ then it is Christ and the Holy Spirit that fulfill the actual spiritual law in them. Again straw man arguments, I have not made these arguments, They are yours alone.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

This one verse refutes all your conclusions about Christians supposedly going back to their work at the law. Again you based your whole point on a point I have not made nor taught. you have pulled down nothing except your own straw man.

Christians are literally dead to the law. They no longer look back to it to try and work at it for any reason. Otherwise they would be entangling themselves again in the yoke of bondage.

Your reply is lacking any conviction or evidence contrary to what I have said. Not only have you not responded to my post in any constructive way, you set up straw man arguments which is always the sign of a weak position.

No offence intended, But I am calling you to be internally logical and consistent with scripture. and your reply is anything but logical or consistent. You have not demonstrated anything you have said in your response eg, its your view with no backing. I backed my position with scripture on which you agreed with before I broke down the logical result of said position. You have not offered anything the goes against my position at all.

The only way you can show my position is wrong in a logical way that is consistent with scripture is to do one of two things.
1, Demonstrate that my conclusions are not in harmony with said facts/scriptures I used.
2, Demonstrate that I have in fact left out important data that effects said data presented.

You have yet to offer anything form either of those options.

I will address your post in blue above.

Here is a definition of a strawman argument in case people don't know.

straw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
  
  
  You have not spoken to my post at all and so the post stands still. You agreed with my points and the post only outlines the logical conclusions of the post you agreed with. Unless you can offer one of the two points of objection as stated above you must admit you are unable to go against my position.
  
  There is not much point replying to this post as all it does is demonstrate that you have not addressed my post. So can you speak to my point/post before this one and show it to be in error by one of the two or both methods given above?
  
  
  
  

 

[Grandpa]

The Lord Jesus didn't save us so we could go back to our work at the law. This is a straw man argument. I have not said anywhere that Jesus does this. so this is irrelevant to the conversation and offers no insight.

Your reply is lacking any conviction or evidence contrary to what I have said. Not only have you not responded to my post in any constructive way, you set up straw man arguments which is always the sign of a weak position.

You've got to be kidding...

Go back and read your own points 1-3 and 5.

You are saying that the Lord Jesus Christ saves us so we can work at the law. I combined all your faulty conclusions into one giant faulty conclusion and then showed why it wasn't true.

That's why I told you to begin with that your points were too simplistic, because I knew you could draw a faulty conclusion from them.

I didn't know it was going to be quite as faulty as you made it...

 

[gotime]

You've got to be kidding...

Go back and read your own points 1-3 and 5.

You are saying that the Lord Jesus Christ saves us so we can work at the law. I combined all your faulty conclusions into one giant faulty conclusion and then showed why it wasn't true.

That's why I told you to begin with that your points were too simplistic, because I knew you could draw a faulty conclusion from them.

I didn't know it was going to be quite as faulty as you made it...

Ok this is a communication problem.

I did not use the term "work at the law" so if you are going to use that term you must define its meaning and demonstrate that I am actually doing it and then also back up your point with scripture.

I know we have talked about this before but I am still confused at what you mean when you say "work at the law"

What I am actually saying was Jesus saves us from sin which is breaking the law. and thus we don't break the law anymore because of his power.


I am simply saying that a person who needs saving may be a thief for example. But when they are saved they are no longer a thief. Then simply apply the same to Sabbath and all 10 commandments. This is straight common sense.

All you are doing is straw man again by saying something I did not say. If you are going to use your own jargon then you must define it so that I know what you are saying. work at the law could mean a number of things be more specific.

 

[gotime]

You agreed that the law shows sin, that sin is breaking the law

Law shows Sin. Sin=breaking the law.

Jesus came to save us from sin. thus Jesus came to save us from breaking the law. its not hard its internally logical .

 

[gotime]

Actually come to think about it, you should use a term the bible uses and show its meaning from the bible that would simplify things.

 

[gotime]

Going back to the Law for living after coming to Christ is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:14-18 is saying that to this day people that read Moses and in Moses is the 10 commandments - including the 4th one ( I think the Sabbath is the 4th one? )- there is a veil that covers their eyes and they can't see the real substance which is Christ.

The Law is a mere shadow of the real thing. When we turn to the Lord - the veil is lifted and we can now behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror and the Hoy Spirit transforms us. - not the carnal keeping of Moses's law.

Going back to the Law for life and transformation is committing spiritual adultery on the Lord. Romans 7:1-6 - we have died to the Law so that we could be joined to another - our Lord Jesus.

Going back to the Law after coming to Christ is like a husband looking at the pictures that his wife sent to him before they were married - but now he is married to his wife and she wants him to be with "her" now - not him looking at her pictures.

The Law was merely a picture, a type of the reality which is Christ and He is in us now and we are to be led by the Holy Spirit because we are now children of God.

Don't let anyone try to pervert the gospel of the grace of Christ. Paul had his Judaizers come in after he preached the gospel to try to get people to go now and follow the Law. He had some very strong words to say about these types. These Judaizers are around in this day and age too.

This again is a classic bait and switch straw man argument. What you argue against here no one is saying.

Let me ask you this, If a thief comes to Christ to be free form his sinful nature and then Jesus saves Him so that he is no longer a thief is he now committing adultery because he now keeps thou shalt not steal?

Or do you feel that Christs salvation does not have enough power to convert the sinner and free them?

Or is it something else?

 

[JaumeJ]

​

Anyone can post an image; even I did it. Anyone can cut and pste. The same goes for inserting print,.

I believe my version but only with the explanation from Galatians. God bless allw ith His understanding..the Godpel of
Jesus Christ, amen.

 

[JaumeJ]

​

Always remember, sin is breaking the Law, otherwise we would not have a clue as to what sin is, but you knew that!

 

[gotime]

View attachment 172124
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Always remember, sin is breaking the Law, otherwise we would not have a clue as to what sin is, but you knew that!

This is a point that I find a total lack of consistency in their argument.

 

[JaumeJ]

Hello grace only folks.

We are all saved by the grace of God, by the mercy giv en by Christ on the cross.

Yes, all are saved by grace only but learn this, and learn it well,

Our obedience is our due. This means obedience is expected of us, and all who have come to Jesus Christ
in spirit and truth know what He did and continues to do is so wonderful it c ommands respect.

So, though our obedience neither adds nor takes away from the Cross, disobedience can cause disaster.

Do not teach the law is dead for once we know Jesus Christ we know which laws are of love, mercy, justice and faith, and which are not.

Do not attempt to confuse the weak in these points for that is the work of Satan, and that is work.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, our Salvation, amen.

 

[JaumeJ]

I must add, does not the Holy Spirit witness that it is good to obey God, and evil to purposely and habitually disobe?