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Hi JaumeJ,
Yes that is a good point JJ. I don't know how many times we tell these people that no one believes we are saved by the things we do ("the Works of the Law"), we still get accused of the same. I do not think they can see that it is only through the Law of God that we can see ourselves just as God sees us, as sinners in need of a savior and that all of our own righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). It is only here as sinners, that we can see our need of help and cry out to Jesus "Lord save us we perish" (Matt 8:25). It is only in this conditions looking into the perfect Law of liberty (James 1:25) as our mirror that God's Law can be our schoolmaster that leads us to find Jesus as our very own Lamb of God that takes away our sins. God's Law shows us that all we can do without him is sin and that this disease is in us and that there is nothing that we can do in our own strength to save ourselves. It is only here that we can lay hold of the promises of God alone and by Faith alone completely depend on the Word of God to do what it says it will do that we see the love of God towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and washed us in His own blood and that by His stripes we are healed and it is here that we love him because he first loved us (Rev 1:5; John 3:16; 1Pet 2:24; 1John 4:19)
People do not realize that it is only as we continue in his Word the very same way that we found Jesus by complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it will do in us by faith that we are His disciples (John 8:31). It is only here that we can see the God of Love and by beholding by faith we become changed into his image so that we can love as he has loved us (2Cor 3:18). Now finally we do not keep God's law for salvation but God works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure as we have complete dependence and faith in His Word to do what it says it will do (Phil 2:13) and it is because we love Jesus that we follow him (John 14:15). Salvation is by Faith in God's Word alone. Only the Law of God can bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith (Gal 3:24). Do away with God's Law you do away with salvation because Jesus did not come to call the righteous but sinners (Matt 9:13) It is sinners that God makes into saints so that God can show the world "here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12). It is only as God writes His Law of Love in us as we walk in the Spirit that we can follow Jesus (Rom 8:1-5). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law and is the New Covenant (Rom 13:10; Heb 8:10-12).
God's Word tells us that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Each one of us needs to decide for ourselves do we want to follow God's Word or the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. We can only find God through His Word as we seek him and ask him (Isa 55:6-7; Jer 29:13; John 14:26). It is here he promises to help us and guide us and reveal himself to us.
It is God's Word that teaches that His 7th Day Sabbath is just as much a part of God's Law as the other 9 and God tells us if we break one of these commandments (10) we are guilty before God as sinners because sin is the transgression of God's Law (James 2:10-12; 1John 3:4)
These linked posts below are just for those that are interested. Everything Grace777 and Grandpa have posted recently have already been answered elsewhere in this thread. They just close their eyes and do not want to see. This is just for those that may be new and interested in God's Word.
The real Gospel?
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Col 2 Sabbath and Shadows of things to come (3)
What is the difference between God's Law and the laws of Moses ?
God's Law and the laws of Moses (1)
God's Law and the laws of Moses (2)
God bless you all.
Yes that is a good point JJ. I don't know how many times we tell these people that no one believes we are saved by the things we do ("the Works of the Law"), we still get accused of the same. I do not think they can see that it is only through the Law of God that we can see ourselves just as God sees us, as sinners in need of a savior and that all of our own righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). It is only here as sinners, that we can see our need of help and cry out to Jesus "Lord save us we perish" (Matt 8:25). It is only in this conditions looking into the perfect Law of liberty (James 1:25) as our mirror that God's Law can be our schoolmaster that leads us to find Jesus as our very own Lamb of God that takes away our sins. God's Law shows us that all we can do without him is sin and that this disease is in us and that there is nothing that we can do in our own strength to save ourselves. It is only here that we can lay hold of the promises of God alone and by Faith alone completely depend on the Word of God to do what it says it will do that we see the love of God towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and washed us in His own blood and that by His stripes we are healed and it is here that we love him because he first loved us (Rev 1:5; John 3:16; 1Pet 2:24; 1John 4:19)
People do not realize that it is only as we continue in his Word the very same way that we found Jesus by complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it will do in us by faith that we are His disciples (John 8:31). It is only here that we can see the God of Love and by beholding by faith we become changed into his image so that we can love as he has loved us (2Cor 3:18). Now finally we do not keep God's law for salvation but God works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure as we have complete dependence and faith in His Word to do what it says it will do (Phil 2:13) and it is because we love Jesus that we follow him (John 14:15). Salvation is by Faith in God's Word alone. Only the Law of God can bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith (Gal 3:24). Do away with God's Law you do away with salvation because Jesus did not come to call the righteous but sinners (Matt 9:13) It is sinners that God makes into saints so that God can show the world "here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12). It is only as God writes His Law of Love in us as we walk in the Spirit that we can follow Jesus (Rom 8:1-5). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law and is the New Covenant (Rom 13:10; Heb 8:10-12).
God's Word tells us that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Each one of us needs to decide for ourselves do we want to follow God's Word or the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. We can only find God through His Word as we seek him and ask him (Isa 55:6-7; Jer 29:13; John 14:26). It is here he promises to help us and guide us and reveal himself to us.
It is God's Word that teaches that His 7th Day Sabbath is just as much a part of God's Law as the other 9 and God tells us if we break one of these commandments (10) we are guilty before God as sinners because sin is the transgression of God's Law (James 2:10-12; 1John 3:4)
These linked posts below are just for those that are interested. Everything Grace777 and Grandpa have posted recently have already been answered elsewhere in this thread. They just close their eyes and do not want to see. This is just for those that may be new and interested in God's Word.
The real Gospel?
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Col 2 Sabbath and Shadows of things to come (3)
What is the difference between God's Law and the laws of Moses ?
God's Law and the laws of Moses (1)
God's Law and the laws of Moses (2)
God bless you all.
You said "So, in reality you are saying that Christians who don't follow the Sabbath as outlined in the Old testament are in fact sinning and dis-obeying God. Thank you. Now we know what is really believed. "
I find his amusing because this and similar claims are always cited. But you guys actually do the exact same thing. You call us Antichrist which means you are suggesting we are not saved because we suggest all Gods people should stop sinning.
Its called projection, you see in us what is actually in you.
In the end it is a mute argument, you are like Israel saying, well if Ezekiel says we are not saved unless we all do this then he is Antichrist. you are like your fathers in this.
I find his amusing because this and similar claims are always cited. But you guys actually do the exact same thing. You call us Antichrist which means you are suggesting we are not saved because we suggest all Gods people should stop sinning.
Its called projection, you see in us what is actually in you.
In the end it is a mute argument, you are like Israel saying, well if Ezekiel says we are not saved unless we all do this then he is Antichrist. you are like your fathers in this.
Grandpa you have said a lot here but you have not really established any of it form the word. You concept of working at the law I find foreign to the Bible teachings. I know of many places that speak about our works being useless for salvation etc. but nothing that defines it the way you have above. I will reply above to specifics in blue.
Anyway I said enough I wont go through the whole post, What is most important is this. I do not work at the law. You need to accept that so we can actually get to the problem. This has nothing to do with law vs works. everyone knows that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. the issue here is what is the result of that grace and faith.
Anyway I said enough I wont go through the whole post, What is most important is this. I do not work at the law. You need to accept that so we can actually get to the problem. This has nothing to do with law vs works. everyone knows that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. the issue here is what is the result of that grace and faith.
A"Jew" according to scripture...
Paul or Shaul as he would have been known said a true Jew is one on the inside. Referring to a circumcised heart.
Who is Israel in God's word? Israel or "my people " as reported by Hosea and others "my people " die for lack of knowledge and acknowledging Elohim and his ways. So "my people" or Israel the name of God given to Jacob and his children as the name Elohim calls them.
The next two are actually tradition of men.
New and Old Testament idea.
In a nutshell this is a very poor translation at least or at worst could be an attempt to usurp God's authority. The Torah or Old Testament as many know it was given life giving spirit and lived as a man who suffered for our sins and is risen from the dead to bring all close to the promise of the covenant with the people of Elohim and His Messiah. Interesting how we forget that the name of Messiah is literally Yeah Saves.
Paul or Shaul as he would have been known said a true Jew is one on the inside. Referring to a circumcised heart.
Who is Israel in God's word? Israel or "my people " as reported by Hosea and others "my people " die for lack of knowledge and acknowledging Elohim and his ways. So "my people" or Israel the name of God given to Jacob and his children as the name Elohim calls them.
The next two are actually tradition of men.
New and Old Testament idea.
In a nutshell this is a very poor translation at least or at worst could be an attempt to usurp God's authority. The Torah or Old Testament as many know it was given life giving spirit and lived as a man who suffered for our sins and is risen from the dead to bring all close to the promise of the covenant with the people of Elohim and His Messiah. Interesting how we forget that the name of Messiah is literally Yeah Saves.
ok Grandpa I am going to address the text you gave and we will see if they actually say what you are saying.
you quoted these texts:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
you seem to suggest the following is in line with these texts:
"If you look back to the OT and say "we need to do that" that is working at the law. If you look at the 10 commandments and say "that still has authority over a Christian" you are working at the law."
So the question is do the verses given indicate what you said above? Lets look and see if they say anything like that.
First verse you sited: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
so far we have the term "works of the law" but no real explanation as to what that term means. However its clear that to be of the works of the law is to be under a curse and Paul quotes scripture:
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Context is the whole book of Deuteronomy which was a book of the law written by Moses:
Deu_31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
This book of the law was placed in the side of the ark:
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It acted as a witness that they had accepted the rules of this law before entering the promised land and also that they accepted the conditions.
So we see that Paul is most clearly referring to the book of Deuteronomy specifically.
So does Paul mean anyone who does anything that is in the book of the law is turning from Christ?
Notice this part:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
We could quote many things but this one will make the point and keep it shorter. Is Paul suggesting that anyone who loves the Lord with all their heart and soul and strength is now of the law and must keep it all to be safe?
No of course not, Jesus even taught to love the lord in this manner with these words.
So it is established that Paul is not simply trying to say that obeying any of the law means you have to do everything. He is also not saying that faith is against loving God. Paul was a proponent for loving God and our fellow man.
So clearly this text does not support your view that doing something from the OT means your working at the law.
Then Paul says this:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Did you realise this is a reference to the OT?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I guess the problem you have here is Paul is backing his points up with looking back to the OT. So should Paul now obey everything the OT says because he uplifts one part? The reality is in all his letters he uplifts many parts.
The prophets were there to correct Israel when they went wrong, This tells us that the Just shall live by faith as Paul is clearly showing here is exactly how Israel were meant to live. They were not saved by works and thus Paul establishes his teaching of faith vs works form the OT.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Did Paul say you can't keep the law in faith? no
Did he say that the law and faith are against each other? No
Read what it says not what you want it to say.
Paul also said:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So don't read what is not there. Don't make up meanings that Paul did not say.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Notice again "for it is written"
Paul again is referencing the book of the law/Deut.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
What is the curse of the law?
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
So the curse is for the people if they do not do all the words of this book of the law.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Here is the point Paul is making, We are not saved by following rules, we are saved by faith. Here is what Paul did not say, He did not say there are no rules or everything in the law is bad.In fact Paul quite clearly taught from the law and upheld the law.
He makes the point that salvation by faith is actually OT. The fact that he references the book of the law is revealing, Because if you follow all of it you would have to reject Christs sacrifice and continue to offer animal sacrifices as the book of the law says. That is the point, the Galatians are not being made to sacrifice, There is no hint that the Jews are pushing them to offer sacrifice. But Galatians speaks of circumcision and obeying the law of Moses/ The book of the law.
Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
We see here the law of Moses is in fact the book of the law or Deuteronomy which Moses wrote and charged Israel before they entered the promised land.
Here is where Joshua is refering:
Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.
Deu 27:6 Thou shalt build the altar of the LORD thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD thy God:
Deuteronomy is the law of Moses.
Thus we see that the issue here is in regards to the book of the law/ Deuteronomy otherwise known as the law of Moses.
They pushed on top of this the idea of circumcision. as see else where and here.
Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
SO when you actually go and look at the points Paul is trying to make and see where he is getting his points from it paints a much clearer picture of what He means and why.
By the way they were also pushing circumcision in Galatians also. Same issue.
I have noticed that you have as far as I have seen never once used the references Paul is using to explain your position. This seems to me that you don't know them and thus have mistakenly made Paul say something He really was not saying.
You seem to do the same for Hebrews. Every time you quote Hebrews 4 I have never seen you give attention to the references that Hebrews 4 does. Ill get on to Hebrews 4, but it references, Joshua, Duet, Exodus, the psalms, Genesis. Without knowing these things we make the NT say things it never meant because we ignore the very foundation of their argument.
you quoted these texts:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
you seem to suggest the following is in line with these texts:
"If you look back to the OT and say "we need to do that" that is working at the law. If you look at the 10 commandments and say "that still has authority over a Christian" you are working at the law."
So the question is do the verses given indicate what you said above? Lets look and see if they say anything like that.
First verse you sited: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
so far we have the term "works of the law" but no real explanation as to what that term means. However its clear that to be of the works of the law is to be under a curse and Paul quotes scripture:
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Context is the whole book of Deuteronomy which was a book of the law written by Moses:
Deu_31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
This book of the law was placed in the side of the ark:
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It acted as a witness that they had accepted the rules of this law before entering the promised land and also that they accepted the conditions.
So we see that Paul is most clearly referring to the book of Deuteronomy specifically.
So does Paul mean anyone who does anything that is in the book of the law is turning from Christ?
Notice this part:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
We could quote many things but this one will make the point and keep it shorter. Is Paul suggesting that anyone who loves the Lord with all their heart and soul and strength is now of the law and must keep it all to be safe?
No of course not, Jesus even taught to love the lord in this manner with these words.
So it is established that Paul is not simply trying to say that obeying any of the law means you have to do everything. He is also not saying that faith is against loving God. Paul was a proponent for loving God and our fellow man.
So clearly this text does not support your view that doing something from the OT means your working at the law.
Then Paul says this:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Did you realise this is a reference to the OT?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I guess the problem you have here is Paul is backing his points up with looking back to the OT. So should Paul now obey everything the OT says because he uplifts one part? The reality is in all his letters he uplifts many parts.
The prophets were there to correct Israel when they went wrong, This tells us that the Just shall live by faith as Paul is clearly showing here is exactly how Israel were meant to live. They were not saved by works and thus Paul establishes his teaching of faith vs works form the OT.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Did Paul say you can't keep the law in faith? no
Did he say that the law and faith are against each other? No
Read what it says not what you want it to say.
Paul also said:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So don't read what is not there. Don't make up meanings that Paul did not say.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Notice again "for it is written"
Paul again is referencing the book of the law/Deut.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. What is the curse of the law?
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
So the curse is for the people if they do not do all the words of this book of the law.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Here is the point Paul is making, We are not saved by following rules, we are saved by faith. Here is what Paul did not say, He did not say there are no rules or everything in the law is bad.In fact Paul quite clearly taught from the law and upheld the law.
He makes the point that salvation by faith is actually OT. The fact that he references the book of the law is revealing, Because if you follow all of it you would have to reject Christs sacrifice and continue to offer animal sacrifices as the book of the law says. That is the point, the Galatians are not being made to sacrifice, There is no hint that the Jews are pushing them to offer sacrifice. But Galatians speaks of circumcision and obeying the law of Moses/ The book of the law.
Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
We see here the law of Moses is in fact the book of the law or Deuteronomy which Moses wrote and charged Israel before they entered the promised land.
Here is where Joshua is refering:
Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.
Deu 27:6 Thou shalt build the altar of the LORD thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD thy God:
Deuteronomy is the law of Moses.
Thus we see that the issue here is in regards to the book of the law/ Deuteronomy otherwise known as the law of Moses.
They pushed on top of this the idea of circumcision. as see else where and here.
Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
SO when you actually go and look at the points Paul is trying to make and see where he is getting his points from it paints a much clearer picture of what He means and why.
By the way they were also pushing circumcision in Galatians also. Same issue.
I have noticed that you have as far as I have seen never once used the references Paul is using to explain your position. This seems to me that you don't know them and thus have mistakenly made Paul say something He really was not saying.
You seem to do the same for Hebrews. Every time you quote Hebrews 4 I have never seen you give attention to the references that Hebrews 4 does. Ill get on to Hebrews 4, but it references, Joshua, Duet, Exodus, the psalms, Genesis. Without knowing these things we make the NT say things it never meant because we ignore the very foundation of their argument.
Hello Jaume. Have you ever tried a text to speech app? Here is one: https://www.naturalreaders.com/ I am just trying out the different voices, which you can adjust the speed of also. I think English (US) Tracy at minus 2 is pretty good. You could even listen in Spanish You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box
You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box God bless you my sister. I will go to and download onee and install it for when and if I really need it. For now I stay away from those "lifeless" but necessary apps. Some of the renditions are funny, especially when a homonym pops up..oftimes it give the wrong pronunciation, but it is easy to discern the meanins.
OK, here I go to get one. I will even try it out. You are always a cool drink of water in a desert place.......j
OK, here I go to get one. I will even try it out. You are always a cool drink of water in a desert place.......j
Hello Jaume. Have you ever tried a text to speech app? Here is one: https://www.naturalreaders.com/ I am just trying out the different voices, which you can adjust the speed of also. I think English (US) Tracy at minus 2 is pretty good. You could even listen in Spanish You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box
You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box Dear B.........
That is so cool. The technology has truly improved since I first heard one of these apps. Now I copied and passted your maile here and listened to it, and it was so easy to follow. I caught things I did not actually register when I read your post, the part about the voice choices. So perhaps I should use thismoe frequently. I will try it with some .pdf's I like and get frustrated with.
PS.ñ.now I can "hear your Magenta script." God bless you always.
That is so cool. The technology has truly improved since I first heard one of these apps. Now I copied and passted your maile here and listened to it, and it was so easy to follow. I caught things I did not actually register when I read your post, the part about the voice choices. So perhaps I should use thismoe frequently. I will try it with some .pdf's I like and get frustrated with.
PS.ñ.now I can "hear your Magenta script." God bless you always.
Hello Jaume. Have you ever tried a text to speech app? Here is one: https://www.naturalreaders.com/ I am just trying out the different voices, which you can adjust the speed of also. I think English (US) Tracy at minus 2 is pretty good. You could even listen in Spanish You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box
You just copy and paste the text you want to hear into the provided text box Please bear always in mind that Torah referes to the five Books written down by Moses, not to the entire Old Testament.
That in mind, the word that includes all of the books of the Old Testament is Tanakh, or, the five Books of Moses, the writings and the Prophets.
For myself I have studed and researched the name Yahweh and I am safe in saying the most accurated translation of this gerund is "Self-existing." This is whay it is translated, I am that I am. Only the Maker of all that is may use this title in all its power and honesty.
God, Yahweh, has declared throughout the Old Testament that He is Israe's Husband, He is the King and He is the Savior. Now since Yahweh has given us all prophecy concering our Savior by His Prophets, we know the Jesus, Yeshua is our Husband, King and Savior.... Do not try to explain this, it is a mystery to be blieved unti the Holy Spiti imparts this understanding, probably come the Kingdom.
Yeshua, Jesus, may be copetently translated as "The Salvation of the Self-exissting."
All the aboe stated plainely, when we read in Isaiah of the Child to be born to us Who would be called such things as Everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Comforter, Coundelor, Almight God, we know it is safe to say God, theSelf-Existing, Yahweh, is One, though no man can explain the total understanding of this for it is not yet fully understood.
We believe Jesus Christ.......God. No further explanation on the Oneness of God should be necessary once we realize the Three are the same......
Do not dispute or contend with me, go to Isaiah 9:6 and dispute and contend.
That in mind, the word that includes all of the books of the Old Testament is Tanakh, or, the five Books of Moses, the writings and the Prophets.
For myself I have studed and researched the name Yahweh and I am safe in saying the most accurated translation of this gerund is "Self-existing." This is whay it is translated, I am that I am. Only the Maker of all that is may use this title in all its power and honesty.
God, Yahweh, has declared throughout the Old Testament that He is Israe's Husband, He is the King and He is the Savior. Now since Yahweh has given us all prophecy concering our Savior by His Prophets, we know the Jesus, Yeshua is our Husband, King and Savior.... Do not try to explain this, it is a mystery to be blieved unti the Holy Spiti imparts this understanding, probably come the Kingdom.
Yeshua, Jesus, may be copetently translated as "The Salvation of the Self-exissting."
All the aboe stated plainely, when we read in Isaiah of the Child to be born to us Who would be called such things as Everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Comforter, Coundelor, Almight God, we know it is safe to say God, theSelf-Existing, Yahweh, is One, though no man can explain the total understanding of this for it is not yet fully understood.
We believe Jesus Christ.......God. No further explanation on the Oneness of God should be necessary once we realize the Three are the same......
Do not dispute or contend with me, go to Isaiah 9:6 and dispute and contend.
Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 25:9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
Act 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged:to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Act 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refusenot to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works ofthe law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it isevident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall livein them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a cursefor us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through JesusChrist; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Maybe, just maybe we don’t understand everything Paul wrote. He clearly kept the Torah (law) and that cannot be disputed by anybody.
I know we have many followers of Paul and people that will quote him all day and all night. That in itself is not a problem but when we are using him as a miss guided weapon, I do believe it to be a problem. So the followers of Paul will either believe he had double standards or will look at his teachings again and figure out why he still kept the law (while being a Christian). I think this will be detrimental to us all if we ignore both sides of Paul’s teachings.
God bless friends
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 25:9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
Act 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged:to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Act 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refusenot to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works ofthe law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it isevident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall livein them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a cursefor us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through JesusChrist; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Maybe, just maybe we don’t understand everything Paul wrote. He clearly kept the Torah (law) and that cannot be disputed by anybody.
I know we have many followers of Paul and people that will quote him all day and all night. That in itself is not a problem but when we are using him as a miss guided weapon, I do believe it to be a problem. So the followers of Paul will either believe he had double standards or will look at his teachings again and figure out why he still kept the law (while being a Christian). I think this will be detrimental to us all if we ignore both sides of Paul’s teachings.
God bless friends
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Indeed we must humble ourselves and ask for the Truth to be revealed.
Where did we each hear that which we share?
Contend for the Faith... times past stoning was acceptable if any came along and preached...
Be sure you are of Heavenly Father and the Messiah.
The Paul said crowd better make sure they know what Paul said.... if the Holy Spirit is not guiding and Comforting then we have modern day Pharisees at work... yet they say it is We that teach and keep the Commandments even to the least.. knowing not that our Faith is at work through the Testimony of the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 1
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Excellent selection of text for this and all threads.
How often have I posted in order to stress the need for all to be of the Gospel of Jesus Christ only for there is no other gospel..according to Paul.
The wisdom of this age, this world, could not bring any to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, yet people continue to expound each's own wisdom in lieu of the wisdom from God by the Holy Spirit. How foolish we can be.
Many post here thinking the words in abundance will convince others of their wisdom, and some may be deceived by such, but as always it is the Holy Spirit Who confirms truth SEPARATing and straining what should not be received.
Blessed be theWord of God, for the Word is God, and God is Jesus Chrsit, amen.
How often have I posted in order to stress the need for all to be of the Gospel of Jesus Christ only for there is no other gospel..according to Paul.
The wisdom of this age, this world, could not bring any to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, yet people continue to expound each's own wisdom in lieu of the wisdom from God by the Holy Spirit. How foolish we can be.
Many post here thinking the words in abundance will convince others of their wisdom, and some may be deceived by such, but as always it is the Holy Spirit Who confirms truth SEPARATing and straining what should not be received.
Blessed be theWord of God, for the Word is God, and God is Jesus Chrsit, amen.
Hebrews 10
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]Hebrews 10King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Clearly states Moses law and GOD's law.......
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Through the Messiah we know that love fullfills the law.
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]Hebrews 10King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Clearly states Moses law and GOD's law.......
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Through the Messiah we know that love fullfills the law.
ok Grandpa I am going to address the text you gave and we will see if they actually say what you are saying.
you quoted these texts:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
you seem to suggest the following is in line with these texts:
"If you look back to the OT and say "we need to do that" that is working at the law. If you look at the 10 commandments and say "that still has authority over a Christian" you are working at the law."
So the question is do the verses given indicate what you said above? Lets look and see if they say anything like that.
First verse you sited: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
so far we have the term "works of the law" but no real explanation as to what that term means. However its clear that to be of the works of the law is to be under a curse and Paul quotes scripture:
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Context is the whole book of Deuteronomy which was a book of the law written by Moses:
Deu_31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
This book of the law was placed in the side of the ark:
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It acted as a witness that they had accepted the rules of this law before entering the promised land and also that they accepted the conditions.
So we see that Paul is most clearly referring to the book of Deuteronomy specifically.
So does Paul mean anyone who does anything that is in the book of the law is turning from Christ?
Notice this part:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
We could quote many things but this one will make the point and keep it shorter. Is Paul suggesting that anyone who loves the Lord with all their heart and soul and strength is now of the law and must keep it all to be safe?
No of course not, Jesus even taught to love the lord in this manner with these words.
So it is established that Paul is not simply trying to say that obeying any of the law means you have to do everything. He is also not saying that faith is against loving God. Paul was a proponent for loving God and our fellow man.
So clearly this text does not support your view that doing something from the OT means your working at the law.
Then Paul says this:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Did you realise this is a reference to the OT?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I guess the problem you have here is Paul is backing his points up with looking back to the OT. So should Paul now obey everything the OT says because he uplifts one part? The reality is in all his letters he uplifts many parts.
The prophets were there to correct Israel when they went wrong, This tells us that the Just shall live by faith as Paul is clearly showing here is exactly how Israel were meant to live. They were not saved by works and thus Paul establishes his teaching of faith vs works form the OT.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Did Paul say you can't keep the law in faith? no
Did he say that the law and faith are against each other? No
Read what it says not what you want it to say.
Paul also said:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So don't read what is not there. Don't make up meanings that Paul did not say.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Notice again "for it is written"
Paul again is referencing the book of the law/Deut.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
What is the curse of the law?
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
So the curse is for the people if they do not do all the words of this book of the law.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Here is the point Paul is making, We are not saved by following rules, we are saved by faith. Here is what Paul did not say, He did not say there are no rules or everything in the law is bad.In fact Paul quite clearly taught from the law and upheld the law.
He makes the point that salvation by faith is actually OT. The fact that he references the book of the law is revealing, Because if you follow all of it you would have to reject Christs sacrifice and continue to offer animal sacrifices as the book of the law says. That is the point, the Galatians are not being made to sacrifice, There is no hint that the Jews are pushing them to offer sacrifice. But Galatians speaks of circumcision and obeying the law of Moses/ The book of the law.
Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
We see here the law of Moses is in fact the book of the law or Deuteronomy which Moses wrote and charged Israel before they entered the promised land.
Here is where Joshua is refering:
Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.
Deu 27:6 Thou shalt build the altar of the LORD thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD thy God:
Deuteronomy is the law of Moses.
Thus we see that the issue here is in regards to the book of the law/ Deuteronomy otherwise known as the law of Moses.
They pushed on top of this the idea of circumcision. as see else where and here.
Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
SO when you actually go and look at the points Paul is trying to make and see where he is getting his points from it paints a much clearer picture of what He means and why.
By the way they were also pushing circumcision in Galatians also. Same issue.
I have noticed that you have as far as I have seen never once used the references Paul is using to explain your position. This seems to me that you don't know them and thus have mistakenly made Paul say something He really was not saying.
You seem to do the same for Hebrews. Every time you quote Hebrews 4 I have never seen you give attention to the references that Hebrews 4 does. Ill get on to Hebrews 4, but it references, Joshua, Duet, Exodus, the psalms, Genesis. Without knowing these things we make the NT say things it never meant because we ignore the very foundation of their argument.
you quoted these texts:
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
you seem to suggest the following is in line with these texts:
"If you look back to the OT and say "we need to do that" that is working at the law. If you look at the 10 commandments and say "that still has authority over a Christian" you are working at the law."
So the question is do the verses given indicate what you said above? Lets look and see if they say anything like that.
First verse you sited: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
so far we have the term "works of the law" but no real explanation as to what that term means. However its clear that to be of the works of the law is to be under a curse and Paul quotes scripture:
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Context is the whole book of Deuteronomy which was a book of the law written by Moses:
Deu_31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
This book of the law was placed in the side of the ark:
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
It acted as a witness that they had accepted the rules of this law before entering the promised land and also that they accepted the conditions.
So we see that Paul is most clearly referring to the book of Deuteronomy specifically.
So does Paul mean anyone who does anything that is in the book of the law is turning from Christ?
Notice this part:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
We could quote many things but this one will make the point and keep it shorter. Is Paul suggesting that anyone who loves the Lord with all their heart and soul and strength is now of the law and must keep it all to be safe?
No of course not, Jesus even taught to love the lord in this manner with these words.
So it is established that Paul is not simply trying to say that obeying any of the law means you have to do everything. He is also not saying that faith is against loving God. Paul was a proponent for loving God and our fellow man.
So clearly this text does not support your view that doing something from the OT means your working at the law.
Then Paul says this:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Did you realise this is a reference to the OT?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I guess the problem you have here is Paul is backing his points up with looking back to the OT. So should Paul now obey everything the OT says because he uplifts one part? The reality is in all his letters he uplifts many parts.
The prophets were there to correct Israel when they went wrong, This tells us that the Just shall live by faith as Paul is clearly showing here is exactly how Israel were meant to live. They were not saved by works and thus Paul establishes his teaching of faith vs works form the OT.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Did Paul say you can't keep the law in faith? no
Did he say that the law and faith are against each other? No
Read what it says not what you want it to say.
Paul also said:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So don't read what is not there. Don't make up meanings that Paul did not say.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Notice again "for it is written"
Paul again is referencing the book of the law/Deut.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. What is the curse of the law?
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
So the curse is for the people if they do not do all the words of this book of the law.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Here is the point Paul is making, We are not saved by following rules, we are saved by faith. Here is what Paul did not say, He did not say there are no rules or everything in the law is bad.In fact Paul quite clearly taught from the law and upheld the law.
He makes the point that salvation by faith is actually OT. The fact that he references the book of the law is revealing, Because if you follow all of it you would have to reject Christs sacrifice and continue to offer animal sacrifices as the book of the law says. That is the point, the Galatians are not being made to sacrifice, There is no hint that the Jews are pushing them to offer sacrifice. But Galatians speaks of circumcision and obeying the law of Moses/ The book of the law.
Jos_8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos_8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
We see here the law of Moses is in fact the book of the law or Deuteronomy which Moses wrote and charged Israel before they entered the promised land.
Here is where Joshua is refering:
Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.
Deu 27:6 Thou shalt build the altar of the LORD thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD thy God:
Deuteronomy is the law of Moses.
Thus we see that the issue here is in regards to the book of the law/ Deuteronomy otherwise known as the law of Moses.
They pushed on top of this the idea of circumcision. as see else where and here.
Act_15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
SO when you actually go and look at the points Paul is trying to make and see where he is getting his points from it paints a much clearer picture of what He means and why.
By the way they were also pushing circumcision in Galatians also. Same issue.
I have noticed that you have as far as I have seen never once used the references Paul is using to explain your position. This seems to me that you don't know them and thus have mistakenly made Paul say something He really was not saying.
You seem to do the same for Hebrews. Every time you quote Hebrews 4 I have never seen you give attention to the references that Hebrews 4 does. Ill get on to Hebrews 4, but it references, Joshua, Duet, Exodus, the psalms, Genesis. Without knowing these things we make the NT say things it never meant because we ignore the very foundation of their argument.
Just because Paul is referencing Deuteronomy doesn't mean that works of the law aren't works of the law. Nothing changes.
Those who are of the works of the law are under the curse. The Just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.
Romans 9:31-32
[FONT="]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
If you can't be honest with yourself I don't see how you can be honest with anyone else. If you don't know what working at the law is then you will be hopelessly lost in your work at the law.
You'll have to figure out the difference between the fruit of the Spirit and working at the law. The fruit of the Spirit is received by faith in Christ. Working at the law has nothing to do with faith in Christ.
Which fruit of the spirit is 'not stealing'?
If you are given the fruit of 'not stealing' you will naturally not steal. But if you think you must work at not stealing by your own strength and your own will then you have brought this fruit of the Spirit down to a carnal commandment.
This should be simple.
Colossians 2:14-17
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Apply this to the whole concept of a carnal commandment, ie working at the law.
The Lord said not ONE jot or tittle would be removed until ALL was fulfilled. So all must have been fulfilled in order for any of the jots or tittles to be removed. Right?????????[/FONT]
You said "So, in reality you are saying that Christians who don't follow the Sabbath as outlined in the Old testament are in fact sinning and dis-obeying God. Thank you. Now we know what is really believed. "
I find his amusing because this and similar claims are always cited. But you guys actually do the exact same thing. You call us Antichrist which means you are suggesting we are not saved because we suggest all Gods people should stop sinning.
Its called projection, you see in us what is actually in you.
In the end it is a mute argument, you are like Israel saying, well if Ezekiel says we are not saved unless we all do this then he is Antichrist. you are like your fathers in this.
The key is defining the use the word Sabbath as a rest term and not to try and turn it into a time sensitive word like “week
destroying the gospel in a hope of someones work rightousness hoping to be found with a righteousness of their own.
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It destroys the way the word Sabbath is used as a shadow (temporal) it pointed to the unseen eternal rest we will receive whe we rceive our promised new bodies....just as in any ceremonial law. The paraphrases in most cased added to the word Sabbaths (plural) as rests again not week a time sensitive word