Not By Works
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They are all commandments but it must be determined which one are used as parables to represent a shadow and which ones govern the moral world as that seen
What you offered would be turning things up side down as if it was the shadow of the rest we do rest in of the real substance we will receive in full when we receive our new bodies. Shadows are not the source of the true rest. The word Sabbath is a rest term .It is not time sensitive. Trying to divide one shadow from another and hoping a person is not offering a work that they perform would point to the Mathew 7 context. Notice Christ did not say he did not perform the work. but those who do despite to His Spirit of grace He never knew.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Ceremonial laws govern ceremonies that point to the true. Moral laws govern a behavior that can be judged. It is why he used a parable, the word translated figure in the verse below. Parables take the things seen and use them to point to the unseen needed to give us the spiritual unseen understanding. Its when men do not veiw them as a parable that they make it into a sign that comes from them performing it as walking by sight and not walking(understanding) by faith.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hi garee,
Thanks for your post
I think these are good questions to think about as follows; If there was no difference between God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses why did God need to make these Laws himself? Why couldn't he just give them to Moses like all the other laws? But no God wrote His the 10 commandments himself with His own finger on two Tables of Stone and when he finished he went and spoke them to his people himself personally.
God's Law (the 10 commandments) are the Work of God, written by God with His own finger on two tables of stone and placed in the Ark of the Covenant hence God's Law separate from anything else. The laws of Moses written by Moses in a book included the civil Laws of Israel as well as all the ceremonial and Levitical laws in relation to the Sanctuary, burnt offerings for sin, feast days, new moons, holy days and health laws most of which pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation and were nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). The reason why God made the 10 commandments Himself is that they are forever. The reason the laws of Moses were made is because they were shadows.
This is the point. The ceremonial laws are the laws of Moses not God's 10 commandments and as such the laws of Moses are shadows. The Law of God (10 commandments) are forever and are the foundation of the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Judgement to come.
Ecc 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.
God bless you all
Thanks for your post
I think these are good questions to think about as follows; If there was no difference between God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses why did God need to make these Laws himself? Why couldn't he just give them to Moses like all the other laws? But no God wrote His the 10 commandments himself with His own finger on two Tables of Stone and when he finished he went and spoke them to his people himself personally.
God's Law (the 10 commandments) are the Work of God, written by God with His own finger on two tables of stone and placed in the Ark of the Covenant hence God's Law separate from anything else. The laws of Moses written by Moses in a book included the civil Laws of Israel as well as all the ceremonial and Levitical laws in relation to the Sanctuary, burnt offerings for sin, feast days, new moons, holy days and health laws most of which pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation and were nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). The reason why God made the 10 commandments Himself is that they are forever. The reason the laws of Moses were made is because they were shadows.
This is the point. The ceremonial laws are the laws of Moses not God's 10 commandments and as such the laws of Moses are shadows. The Law of God (10 commandments) are forever and are the foundation of the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Judgement to come.
Ecc 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.
God bless you all
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Hi UG,
I am resting in God's Word. How about you? Today is actually God's Sabbath where I am from
God bless you all
I am resting in God's Word. How about you? Today is actually God's Sabbath where I am from
God bless you all
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Not saved by works,hmmm.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Church of Ephesus.Jesus said they have fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or Jesus will remove their candlestick out of its place.
The Lord Jesus has a different outlook than some people that claim Christ have,for He said to do the first works,and because they were not doing those works,they have fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent,their candlestick would be removed.
But works do not mean anything,hmmm.
Maybe it is not clear enough for some people to understand,but coming from Jesus it would be clear.
Can a person believe what they want to believe so much that what Jesus says does not matter,and if they offend does not apply to them.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus did not find their works perfect before God,which Jesus told them to repent,and if not He will come upon them as a thief,and they will not know when He comes.
Not saved by works,hmmm.
They say not saved by works,but if they do not do the works they are not right with Jesus,and they say but a person that is saved will do the works,then how did these people lack works,and not have right works,after they were saved,which Jesus told them to repent,so they could still be saved,but also if they did not repent Jesus would go against them,which shows they would not obtain salvation,for Jesus would not give that possibility if it is OSAS.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,but they say,nea,but God chose who would be saved,and not saved.
Many are called but few are chosen,and if God chose who would be saved,and not saved,why is He calling people that cannot be chosen,and all the people He called would be chosen,but many are called but few are chosen,so it appears that it takes place on earth.
And if we have a choice in our salvation,then we must decide to do the works of the Spirit,for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,or there would not be any sin,or hypocrisy,and that is how works can lack,and not be perfect before God,because we have a choice after we are saved,and must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
For many are called but few are chosen,and some do not get chosen because they like some things of the flesh,and worldliness.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Church of Ephesus.Jesus said they have fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or Jesus will remove their candlestick out of its place.
The Lord Jesus has a different outlook than some people that claim Christ have,for He said to do the first works,and because they were not doing those works,they have fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent,their candlestick would be removed.
But works do not mean anything,hmmm.
Maybe it is not clear enough for some people to understand,but coming from Jesus it would be clear.
Can a person believe what they want to believe so much that what Jesus says does not matter,and if they offend does not apply to them.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus did not find their works perfect before God,which Jesus told them to repent,and if not He will come upon them as a thief,and they will not know when He comes.
Not saved by works,hmmm.
They say not saved by works,but if they do not do the works they are not right with Jesus,and they say but a person that is saved will do the works,then how did these people lack works,and not have right works,after they were saved,which Jesus told them to repent,so they could still be saved,but also if they did not repent Jesus would go against them,which shows they would not obtain salvation,for Jesus would not give that possibility if it is OSAS.
God says He wants all people to repent,and come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,but they say,nea,but God chose who would be saved,and not saved.
Many are called but few are chosen,and if God chose who would be saved,and not saved,why is He calling people that cannot be chosen,and all the people He called would be chosen,but many are called but few are chosen,so it appears that it takes place on earth.
And if we have a choice in our salvation,then we must decide to do the works of the Spirit,for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,or there would not be any sin,or hypocrisy,and that is how works can lack,and not be perfect before God,because we have a choice after we are saved,and must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
For many are called but few are chosen,and some do not get chosen because they like some things of the flesh,and worldliness.
A
The above sounds a lot like the below...
God calls us to different ministries. One of which is tewardship.
You ask people to be like the early church.....who then will be entrusted with the power and responsibility of the apostles to be faithful stewards of the blessings God provides?
Many people can give a person a fish...,how many people will take the time to teach them to fish?
God's calling to His people is MORE than jusT MORALISTIC good deeds.
Jesus told his disciples two different things concerning coin purses. Do you know the scriptures and WHY JESUS told them at first to travel without a coin purse or change of clothes and then later to carry a change of clothes, coin purse and sword?
Following the Holy spirit means listening not to a set formula given to all people but walking the unique path that God wants us to walk at a specific moment in our lives.
It's more than reading Bible stories and applying them to our lives...,it's praying and listening to God and following the paths He has made straight for us to walk.
In conclusion, if God calls you to sell all and become a missionary, then do it. If God calls you to be a faithful steward and give as you can at home, then that is good too.
Pray and follow God's leading,
Don't jump off cliffs to "prove" that you are a child of God. Instead follow Him and rest in His love.
God calls us to different ministries. One of which is tewardship.
You ask people to be like the early church.....who then will be entrusted with the power and responsibility of the apostles to be faithful stewards of the blessings God provides?
Many people can give a person a fish...,how many people will take the time to teach them to fish?
God's calling to His people is MORE than jusT MORALISTIC good deeds.
Jesus told his disciples two different things concerning coin purses. Do you know the scriptures and WHY JESUS told them at first to travel without a coin purse or change of clothes and then later to carry a change of clothes, coin purse and sword?
Following the Holy spirit means listening not to a set formula given to all people but walking the unique path that God wants us to walk at a specific moment in our lives.
It's more than reading Bible stories and applying them to our lives...,it's praying and listening to God and following the paths He has made straight for us to walk.
In conclusion, if God calls you to sell all and become a missionary, then do it. If God calls you to be a faithful steward and give as you can at home, then that is good too.
Pray and follow God's leading,
Don't jump off cliffs to "prove" that you are a child of God. Instead follow Him and rest in His love.
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When it comes to sabbath keeping this Pauls view
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
col 2:16
A day of rest is good for everyone, it is meant to refresh the soul. When you take it is up
to you, but it makes sense we all take it at the same time so can celebrate the Lord together.
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
col 2:16
A day of rest is good for everyone, it is meant to refresh the soul. When you take it is up
to you, but it makes sense we all take it at the same time so can celebrate the Lord together.
Hi Peter
Have you considered the following...Paul is talking about the annual feastival Sabbaths connected to New moons and drink offerings which could fall on any day of the week. Not the weekly Sabbath from God's Commandments (Lev 23. Ex 20:8-11). The feasts and Holy days were shadows showing the plan of salvation pointing to Jesus and were nailed to the cross.
Scripture proof;
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Col 2 Sabbath and Shadows of things to come (3)
There is no scripture in the bible that says that we no longer need to keep God's 4th commandments Holy anymore. Sunday worship is a man made teaching and traditions that has no basis in God's Word and many people have been deceived into following it. Jesus says if we do this we break God's Law....
Mat 15:3-9,
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honours me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
God Bless
Have you considered the following...Paul is talking about the annual feastival Sabbaths connected to New moons and drink offerings which could fall on any day of the week. Not the weekly Sabbath from God's Commandments (Lev 23. Ex 20:8-11). The feasts and Holy days were shadows showing the plan of salvation pointing to Jesus and were nailed to the cross.
Scripture proof;
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Col 2 Sabbath and Shadows of things to come (3)
There is no scripture in the bible that says that we no longer need to keep God's 4th commandments Holy anymore. Sunday worship is a man made teaching and traditions that has no basis in God's Word and many people have been deceived into following it. Jesus says if we do this we break God's Law....
Mat 15:3-9,
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honours me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
God Bless
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Sorry the last link did not work for some reason.
[FONT="]Colossians 2 a shadow of things to come (3)
God bless.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Colossians 2 a shadow of things to come (3)
God bless.
[/FONT]
Hi LoveGodForever thanks for the reply.
All scripture is written by one author. Therefore inspiring Moses to write His law according to the will of God is no less considered the finger of God as the interpretation of God not of a private interpretation of Moses a sinner. Moses is a prophet that brings the word of God according to the will of God and not by the will of man (Moses)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
I would think what God has joined together as one let no man separate.
Again you are separating the word of God as the law of God from the law of God. It’s why the Holy Spirit called His word the book of the law. It is not a book of Moses theories coming from his own mind. Moses placed it there to be a witness against us .The thee in that verse (26) included Moses. The book placed on the outside was a witness to metaphors used inside. God performed that work so that men would not attribute the finger of God to Moses a sinner.
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.Deu 31:26-29
I would suggest as it is written whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever is not in respect to Moses opinions called private interpretation but is according to His interpretion. By it, He measures out His faith and gives it to men
It seems you are trying to divide his law from his law as you divide one shadow of it to anther. The whole Bible is the book of the law that he commands us to believe. It is not limited to those laws especially those that show a reason to be used as a parable as to why we are to guard the ceremonial and not confuse them with the moral laws in which Christ dies for. Ceremonial laws as shadows used to give us the unseen spiritual understanding govern ceremonies. When the substance comes the shadows disappear.
The Deuteronomy reference as to a reason is different than the Exodus account. Both are used as parable or figures. Again there is no reasoning given to moral laws the ones we can judge or evaluate a situation .
Shadows can give temporal comfort seeing they are used to preach the gospel in respect to the substance. They are not meant to be a source of anger because God is gracious and tender hearted to those who do not deserve His grace. There is no separating of a shadow from a shadow or a ceremonial law from another ceremonial law
I think the portion of scripture I am offering below shows how shadows are used to comfort like a medicine but is not the cure for washing away or sin. When looking at it note Job was angry at God because of His grace in regard to it. God is kind and tender hearted towards those who do not think they deserve his mercy. So angry that he wanted to die every time God called him back tuning Jonahs to repent (ease himself like a shadow)
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Knowing God is graciuos and resisting it is doing despite the Spirit of grace. Because Jonas was a child of God God did not send a strong deliusin so that Jonas would belive the lie
Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live. And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more then sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?Jon 4:1-11
Again by hoping to die it shows Job did do despite to the Spirit of grace. God who began the good work of salvation promises us He will finishes it. He is our comfort or shadow of our ease because he has washed away our sin, we rest in His good works that work in us to both will an do His good pleasure.
Its what moved Moses to write the law of God ,not of Moses .If we attribute it to Moses we would be blaspheming the Holy name by which we are drawn to or God.
All scripture is written by one author. Therefore inspiring Moses to write His law according to the will of God is no less considered the finger of God as the interpretation of God not of a private interpretation of Moses a sinner. Moses is a prophet that brings the word of God according to the will of God and not by the will of man (Moses)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
I would think what God has joined together as one let no man separate.
Again you are separating the word of God as the law of God from the law of God. It’s why the Holy Spirit called His word the book of the law. It is not a book of Moses theories coming from his own mind. Moses placed it there to be a witness against us .The thee in that verse (26) included Moses. The book placed on the outside was a witness to metaphors used inside. God performed that work so that men would not attribute the finger of God to Moses a sinner.
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.Deu 31:26-29
I would suggest as it is written whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever is not in respect to Moses opinions called private interpretation but is according to His interpretion. By it, He measures out His faith and gives it to men
It seems you are trying to divide his law from his law as you divide one shadow of it to anther. The whole Bible is the book of the law that he commands us to believe. It is not limited to those laws especially those that show a reason to be used as a parable as to why we are to guard the ceremonial and not confuse them with the moral laws in which Christ dies for. Ceremonial laws as shadows used to give us the unseen spiritual understanding govern ceremonies. When the substance comes the shadows disappear.
The Deuteronomy reference as to a reason is different than the Exodus account. Both are used as parable or figures. Again there is no reasoning given to moral laws the ones we can judge or evaluate a situation .
Shadows can give temporal comfort seeing they are used to preach the gospel in respect to the substance. They are not meant to be a source of anger because God is gracious and tender hearted to those who do not deserve His grace. There is no separating of a shadow from a shadow or a ceremonial law from another ceremonial law
I think the portion of scripture I am offering below shows how shadows are used to comfort like a medicine but is not the cure for washing away or sin. When looking at it note Job was angry at God because of His grace in regard to it. God is kind and tender hearted towards those who do not think they deserve his mercy. So angry that he wanted to die every time God called him back tuning Jonahs to repent (ease himself like a shadow)
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Knowing God is graciuos and resisting it is doing despite the Spirit of grace. Because Jonas was a child of God God did not send a strong deliusin so that Jonas would belive the lie
Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live. And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more then sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?Jon 4:1-11
Again by hoping to die it shows Job did do despite to the Spirit of grace. God who began the good work of salvation promises us He will finishes it. He is our comfort or shadow of our ease because he has washed away our sin, we rest in His good works that work in us to both will an do His good pleasure.
Its what moved Moses to write the law of God ,not of Moses .If we attribute it to Moses we would be blaspheming the Holy name by which we are drawn to or God.
P
Okay, good. You got my point--it's possible to keep the law of Moses without it meaning categorically and without exception that you are trying to justify yourself. That's exactly why I brought up the example of Paul. He proves you can keep the Law of Moses and it not have to be for the reason of trying to justify yourself.
For some reason if you mention 'law', or 'works' in the Protestant church people instantly slap their hands over their ears and start screaming 'Works don't save! Works don't save!" as if that's the only way to understand our spiritual obligation to 'do' things in our believing. For them it is the only way to understand works, because that is what the church is teaching them.
This is true. That's why I stopped bashing them years ago. They love God and they know they can't earn their salvation. They want to keep God's commandments because they love him. Who are we to tell them to stop, right?
In all the Messianic believers that I've talked to on line, only one said he was literally justified by keeping the law of Moses. Only one. And so far I don't see anyone here saying we are justified (made righteous) by keeping the ceremonial law of Moses.
For some reason if you mention 'law', or 'works' in the Protestant church people instantly slap their hands over their ears and start screaming 'Works don't save! Works don't save!" as if that's the only way to understand our spiritual obligation to 'do' things in our believing. For them it is the only way to understand works, because that is what the church is teaching them.
This is true. That's why I stopped bashing them years ago. They love God and they know they can't earn their salvation. They want to keep God's commandments because they love him. Who are we to tell them to stop, right?
In all the Messianic believers that I've talked to on line, only one said he was literally justified by keeping the law of Moses. Only one. And so far I don't see anyone here saying we are justified (made righteous) by keeping the ceremonial law of Moses.
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No sense in going past this skewed and twisted scripture.....he is speaking of their work and authority collectively as a church not their individual salvation....
The tragic truth is, that workers for know no bounds when it comes to twisting context to prove their satanic doctrines that are false and misleading.....
The tragic truth is, that workers for know no bounds when it comes to twisting context to prove their satanic doctrines that are false and misleading.....