No sense in going past this skewed and twisted scripture.....he is speaking of their work and authority collectively as a church not their individual salvation....
The tragic truth is, that workers for know no bounds when it comes to twisting context to prove their satanic doctrines that are false and misleading.....
Hi Dcon
You promised to God you'd try really hard not to say "cake takers" and "workers for" and other stuff.
I have it in black and White! In its very own thread!! It didn't last long.
I'm here because you said something above that made me think of the CC. Go figure.
MattforJesus posted in 20288: (288 posts since I clicked on 20,000??!!)
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Church of Ephesus.Jesus said they have fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or Jesus will remove their candlestick out of its place.
The Lord Jesus has a different outlook than some people that claim Christ have,for He said to do the first works,and because they were not doing those works,they have fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent,their candlestick would be removed.
You're saying above that Jesus was speaking to the work of a Church collectively and not to individual salvation.
Some interesting points come to mind:
1. Why would He be concerned with the individual work of a Church? The Church at Epheses had preached really well and was losing its first love. But the point MattforJesus is making is a very valid one.
THIS is not the point. The point, which is also confirmed by the N.T. Writers, is that the Church CAN fall away.
2. The CC used to teach that you had to be saved by THE CHURCH.
We, OTOH, believe we can only be saved individually.
So, which is it? Is the Church at Ephesus getting people saved as a groups --- which is why it's so important that they not fall from their first love...
or, is it individual salvation, in which case it doesn't really matter if the Church was falling away.
Don't we Always say (many of us) that the Holy Spirit works INDIVIDUALLY and not withing a Church?
Isn't THIS what saves us?
3. If a Church has "collective authority" why do we fight so much against the only one Church that truly has collective authority?
NOTHING MattforJesus has said is twisted.
It's very simple when we follow the same method of exegesis all the way through the entire N.T.
The twisting happens when we make it want to say what WE want it to say.
For instance, John 3:16 uses the word BELIEVE in the present tense. As in every other case... it is ALWAYS present tense as to believing. IOW, you must b elieve at the time of Death. And yet many will take this very simple and straightforward verse and use to mean that something happened in the past that goes on forever and ever. Please don't mention the word aorist... Thanks...You're intelligent enough to know that it's meaning is not that simple...
So, in conclusion (aintcha glad?)
Salvation is PERSONAL.
Jesus ALWAYS taugh this.
He wanted every INDIVIDUAL to have a life altering experience.
He set up churches only to teach HIS word and commandments.
If a Church, that has collective authority, can fall...
So can we as individuals since the Holy Spirit lives in each of us, individually.