Not By Works

[Limey410v2]

According to Jewish tradition, which included sacrifices and offerings, these sacrifices covered unintentinal sins.

You make fun of it, but here does exist INTENTIONAL SIN and UNINTENTIONAL SIN.

An unintentinals sin, for instance, is something you do that you do not beleive is a sin, but actually is in God's eyes. We should remember that God is a pure and holy God and if perfect --- we are not and commit many more sins in one day than we can ever be aware of.

In fact, you could be doing something that is a sin, which is not a sin for someone else.
Thus, not all sin is willful, as you seem to assume.

And yes, willful sin is something done against God's Laws that one is fully aware of and consents to do.

You make a comment that some here justify their sinning.
I've not met anyone here who do this. Some do have the Words of Jesus totally misunderstood, however I doubt anyone justifies their sinning but are probably sorry for it.

Also you say that these persons are off to the Lake of Fire.
Can sins not be forgiven?

Are you saying that if someone sins they go off to the Lake of Fire?
Could you provide some scripture for this? I'm not familiar with this doctrine.

Also, you state that grace is misunderstood. Can it be?
Doesn't everyone here know about the love God has for us and how we don't deserve it?

If you are paying full attention to the 613 commandmants of God, and you obey them all 24/7/365 X your life, you won't sin.

Every sin we commit is a result of us willfully ignoring the Mosaic Law.

The law is perfect.

Thank God for Mercy and Grace.

 

[Limey410v2]

Hebrews 10:26
​

New International Version
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

New Living Translation
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

English Standard Version
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Young's Literal Translation
For we -- wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

New American Standard Bible
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The entirety of this scripture is literal.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth - If after we are converted and become true Christians we should apostatize, it would be impossible to be recovered again, for there would be no other sacrifice for sin; no way by which we could be saved. This passage, however, like Hebrews 6:4-6, has given rise to much difference of opinion. But that the above is the correct interpretation, seems evident to me from the following considerations:
(1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.

(2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected.

(3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language - the words "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth," referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind.

(4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned "wilfully," must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They "wilfully" resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God.

(5) it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Hebrews 6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation.

The obvious misunderstanding is in the quote above.

Narrowing down = focus.

The focus of the verse is not on willful sinning. It is focused on the fact that there is no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all. By focusing on sin and what you think is your own ability to sacrifice for sin, you look away from the finished work of Jesus.
I have zero misunderstanding of this verse.

Its cool you highlight the parts of the verses that show us the magnitude of us insulting His Spirit of Grace. Ignoring His sacrifice for us, yet you read it as condemnation for sin, of which there is none in Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

Can anyone show me one bible verse that says that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?
That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED? God's 7th Day Sabbath is also the 4th Commandment in God's Law (Ex 20:8-11). If we break any of God's 10 commandments we are guilty of SIN. All will stand before God on the day of Judgement for the things we have all done in this life.

I did answer this on another thread. Perhaps you didn't see it. I hope this time you will.

The seventh day Sabbath was for the nation of Israel after they came into their rest which was their land. This is physical, tied to the earthly realm which is not what the body of Christ is all about.

So looking here at the NT..

~Heb 4:8　 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken later about another day. The day...a period of time. And it was Joshua and Caleb who had another spirit of bravery and belief that took them into their land.
　
Heb 4:9


　 There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God, The body of Christ is the people of God. Am sure you would agree if you are born again. So what is the spiritual Israels rest? Where is our Head? And where is the body spiritually?

Jesus has already entered this rest. But, it remains yet for the body of Christ on earth to enter. There is a body of believers already there.

~
Heb 4:9　 There remainethG620 thereforeG686 a restG4520 to theG3588 peopleG2992 of God.
G2316

rest:

~
G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
sab-bat-is-mos'
From a derivative of G4521; a "sabbatism", that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven): - rest.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

The final resting place for those of obedience...belief which leads to faith. We hear the Word, believe it's true, and the gift of faith is released to us. Heaven.

Our Sabbath rest. We do keep it Holy. Guard the way within our heart.




　



　




Heb 4:10　 because the one who enters God's rest has himself rested from his own actions, just as God did from his.　
Heb 4:11　 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fail by following their example of disobedience.　

 

[Stephen63]

Narrowing down = focus.

The focus of the verse is not on willful sinning. It is focused on the fact that there is no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all. By focusing on sin and what you think is your own ability to sacrifice for sin, you look away from the finished work of Jesus.
I have zero misunderstanding of this verse.

So you keep saying.

I didn't post that for your benefit though, for I knew you'd never believe it.

I wrote it for the readers.

 

[FranC]

If you are paying full attention to the 613 commandmants of God, and you obey them all 24/7/365 X your life, you won't sin.

Every sin we commit is a result of us willfully ignoring the Mosaic Law.

The law is perfect.

Thank God for Mercy and Grace.

I'm sorry to say you speak nonsense and know no theology at all.

Fluffy comments that mean NOTHING.

 

[Limey410v2]

I'm sorry to say you speak nonsense and know no theology at all.

Fluffy comments that mean NOTHING.

Seriously FranC, You keep vacillating from needing theology to not needing theology on this thread, depending on your current whim. Make up your mind.

 

[JIMBO43]

theology is God ology did anyone tell you that

 

[UnderGrace]

Umm, yes I have asked several times?

Seriously FranC, You keep vacillating from needing theology to not needing theology on this thread, depending on your current whim. Make up your mind.

 

[Magenta]

If you are paying full attention to the 613 commandmants of God, and you obey them all 24/7/365 X your life, you won't sin.

Every sin we commit is a result of us willfully ignoring the Mosaic Law.
The law is perfect.
Thank God for Mercy and Grace.

The 613 were not given to us. Jesus gave us a new and better covenant, for the old could not contain Him. Remember not putting a new patch on an old garment? Or not pouring new wine into an old wine skin? You cannot even keep the 613; some were meant for men only, some for women only, some for priests only, and some for a certain time frame, because many of those 613 dealt with the laws of purity and sacrifice, and were only applicable when the Temple stood in Jerusalem. The old is obsolete and passing away. You are going the wrong direction.

 

[JIMBO43]

why do you, not ask jesus , if you have faith in god. the problem with denying god, is an adult,you will be answerable, for there own choice. only a pea brain, without an answer , would speculate , and show the internet, what fool is this, when did we have the iq to teach your kids, how to die, in speculation to slander.

for example
war saved you also, please read an weep,

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


when did god, need a watchman, when did you enter death, the stone the builder rejected, was your grave stone. (could be speculation) if logic ,needs two side, to condemn you. what side are you on. etc

So was Jesus made a man for a little while then or arnt you saying ?

 

[BillG]

Yep Amen, its strange to me that people always want to narrow this verse down to willful sin, as if the sins that they are committing are accidental or non willful. Like oops, I didn't to do mean that.
ALL sin is willful. We all willfully sin, so I guess according to their interpretation we are all off to the lake of fire.

I hear so many people say, "well willful sin really means repeating the same sin over and over."
Or "willful sin is sin that you are fully aware of, yet you commit anyway." and all sorts of other baloney that justifies their minor sins.

But that is really just based on their misunderstanding of grace and their rejection of the full forgiveness granted by Jesus on the Cross.

I agree with you.

Sins that we commit and know we are, well they are wilful sins.
Then some say that we can commit sins of ignorance and in fact they are not sins?
I don't get that, I really don't.
Yes we can commit sins of ignorance but a sacrifice still had/has to be made.

Leviticus 5:17-19


17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. 19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the Lord.”

With regard to wilful sin there is a wilful sin that cannot be forgiven.


Numbers 15:30-31
Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin
30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’ ”


15:30, 31 The Hebrew phrase translated presumptuously means “with a high hand,” with open disdain for the will and work of God. This is a sin that is done, as it were, while looking God in the eye and shaking one’s fist at Him. (NKJV study notes)

The Sprit of Grace

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the Pierced One
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

In Numbers 15:31 Despised the word of God.

John 1:1-5


The Gospel According to
JOHN
Chapter 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The word of God is Jesus.

The study notes for Numbers above "disdain for the will and work of God"

What is the will of God?

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

What is the work of God?

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

There are those who say to sin wilfully as believers fall foul of the Hebrews passage being discussed.
Ans therefore no sacrifice remains for their sins.

Yes Paul's talks about the sins of the flesh, how those who continue do so will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
But he also says "This is what you were, now behave in what you are now"
"You are in Jesus now walk like him"

Now let's say and be honest we all have stuff we find difficult to overcome, but if we are truly in Jesus we keep coming before him and asking for help, saying "I don't want to be like this, why am I like this?

Now if someone feels that if a believer has a problem with an addiction but falls time and time again and it's a wilfull sin then no sacrifice remains for forgiveness of it therefore going to hell.

Thats not true because that is to deny

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To me wilful sin is to reject Jesus full stop. To reject his atonement for our sin, to reject the word of God.
With a high hand and saying "The sacrifice Jesus made was not enough and I reject it, the one who was pierced on the cross so that the spirit of grace may save me was not enough"

It has nothing to do with a struggle with sin but rejecting the answer to hope of our struggle. That's basic at its very sense.

To reject the word is to reject Jesus, to reject Jesus, the sacrifice he made, to trample under foot the Son of God and count the blood covenant by which we are sanctified as not worthy.

That is wilful sin and that is what a person will be judged on.

My simple thoughts

 

[BillG]

Ps sorry for the long post

 

[JIMBO43]

• this is your personal walk, with god, please understand the meaning of personal walk with,
• death will be personal with you, oops the joy of slanderers , with no goal or proof, when did god make money.
• manna from heaven.adults need a long shot logic to keep them up to speed, . logic asks, who will buy your head stone, please underline, head stone, so that there will be, no mistake, in what money controls, the problem with using someone else s logic you need to be approved. (by who)

a police force was formed to protect ,the gentry, for the poor , now it protect the world, with your tax dollars, so you can breath free air. etc

maybe death has got a hold of everyone at some point ,,,, have you ever considered this ?

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm sorry to say you speak nonsense and know no theology at all.

Fluffy comments that mean NOTHING.

Oh great grand poobah of knowledge, do enlighten us with your knowledge and all knowing theology...........you sure like to make mouthy comments hey Fran......

 

[dcontroversal]

Ps sorry for the long post

No need to apologize Bill......post away........give her beans captain.....

 

[Magenta]

maybe death has got a hold of everyone at some point ,,,, have you ever considered this ?

We are all born into Adam, which is death for sure

 

[Limey410v2]

The 613 were not given to us. Jesus gave us a new and better covenant, for the old could not contain Him. Remember not putting a new patch on an old garment? Or not pouring new wine into an old wine skin? You cannot even keep the 613; some were meant for men only, some for women only, some for priests only, and some for a certain time frame, because many of those 613 dealt with the laws of purity and sacrifice, and were only applicable when the Temple stood in Jerusalem. The old is obsolete and passing away. You are going the wrong direction.

And I thank Him every day for His Grace and Mercy.


I don't however believe that it is obsolete, scripture tells us it is an everlasting covenant.

I do believe that it can be used for its proper purpose, which is to point people to Jesus and what He accomplished for us, to the fact that we can never live up to God's standard, and that we must rely on Him and His grace and mercy and to live our new life.

Of course I believe Jesus fulfilled all of the requirements of the Old, for us to be able to live in the New.

 

[JIMBO43]

I had a thought. A group claim as ex-legalists it is the legalists who are the true evil
in the world. How do you spot them?

Oh we know they cry. They show themselves by not believing in absolute security.
What a denial to believe people are susceptible to sin, and the fight is love verses
rebellion.

What is ironic is the pedantic legalistic definition of the failure of true revelation rather
than seeing love not working in someone's heart, which shows a spiritual issue. A true
believer has a heart of flesh yet many display hearts of stone, while claiming they know
the living God.

How is it a few words written and some will write off a believer. What matters more,
someone's heart or how they express it? It is always easier to condemn and find fault
rather than see blessing and share it. This world is full of hard hearted critics and too
few of people who love peoples souls. What does Jesus call us to be?

I personally have found those who claim loudly to know and put people right are often
those who find it impossible to empathise, which denies there whole position in Christ.

is this emotinal blackmail too tho or am i barking... I mean quite often i see emotinal anger as an isue and a desire from with in to do harm..

I had some guy wanting to kill me today over nothing worth getting upset about... but then i say to my self no one can take the truth well at first accept for those who can handle rebuke..

However MARK MY WORDS WHEN I SAY.. TRIALS AND TRIBS.....

YOU ME EVERYONE WILL BE TRIED FOR EVERY SINARIO ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANNET SHOULD WE NOT BE FOUND TO BE GIVING...

 

[stonesoffire]

Pages and pages of text show us that the falling away the Hebrews are contemplating is a return to Moses and away from Jesus. That's called 'unbelief'. The author is exhorting them to not lose confidence (read 'faith') in Jesus. He wrote pages and pages of text explaining how Jesus is far and above superior to the Levitical system they apparently want to return to. The willful sinning that will remove the efficacy of the sacrifice of Jesus from them is their unbelief in that sacrifice. It doesn't remain for the person who departs from it in unbelief. You lose it, and with it your protection from the coming wrath of God.

So far I would say I agree. If the Hebrew believer went back to the law, and sinned, there would be no sacrifice under the law to cover. Why would one go back to law? It would have to be because one didn't fully trust or believe the Cross of Jesus to be enough...right? Is this what you are saying? With a believer who has faith from the heart, one is not just covered by blood but purged by blood. The sin nature takes a blow to death...for we die with Him, and are raised with Him. And His works of righteousness is imputed to us by Father. True?

This horrible twisting of scripture comes right from the mouths of demons. When you hear a voice say it insults God's grace to continue to rely on it you're hearing from a demon.

You do not re-sacrifice Jesus when you maintain a constant faith in his blood to keep you justified before the Father. You're simply 'holding fast' the gospel word about that sacrifice. Demonic spirits are lying to the church and deceiving them into thinking that Hebrews means you do not have to 'hold fast' the gospel about the blood because that would be insulting to God.

I don't think UG believes this. But, I don't really understand your first sentence.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

It is true...we examine our hearts to see if we are "in the faith". And that is by the Word. But, we have promises that it isn't really us keeping ourselves...It is the work of Holy Spirit to do that. Grace being the power of God within our heart to produce His likeness. When we reach Heaven...we become fully like Him for we see Him then as He is. Full of His Light. It's a cooperative work of us both. Holy Spirit and our spirit.

"

15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

The enemy is the one telling the church they don't have to endure to the end, which is great news for men defeated by porn addictions, and women defeated by their fearful desire to not want to submit to their husband's authority. Both very big, big problems in our western culture these days. But nothing that God's grace can't overcome in a person. In fact, that's why he gave it (Titus 2:11-12). God's grace was not given so we can languish in our sins with impunity in regard to salvation as if grace was not a license to sin. Jude makes it very clear what will happen to those who have been teaching the church that:

I see that parable explaining why Christians are not yet good ground. And it's all an individual basis. We can have thorns in our life choking the Word; and that doesn't mean one isn't born from above. Seed not rooted down in faith...then certain things not produced yet fully in the life, and our mind not completely renewed by the Word of God. Who has all these things overcome? We do at some point come to a full surrender. And as I said...its' individual, we can't judge another to hell; and is the work of Holy Spirit.

"

I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

The scripture you posted in Jude has nothing to do with this.

And Jesus, too, makes it clear what the outcome is for the person who leads little ones who believe in him to stumble and go to the eternal fire:

"

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Not allowing time for the maturity of the believer could be part of this. Condemnation will cause one to be paralyzed by fear and then can't approach Father through His Son for the forgiveness needed.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

[/QUOTE]

No hands or feet left? Any eyes plucked out?

Am trying to get caught up to where everyone is. But, this post intrigued me.

 

[FranC]

Seriously FranC, You keep vacillating from needing theology to not needing theology on this thread, depending on your current whim. Make up your mind.

The Study of God aka Theology SHOULD BE what we're doing here --- it's discussion.

I fail to find it here.
I hear many fluffy comments, but no theology.

Stone posts theology. Which reminds me of Hebrews.
I can't think of anyone else.

Seems like those who are on the side of Obedience of Faith DO post theology.
Which kind of proves that they know their bible AND Christian concepts.

For instance, read my page long post to you, just a few posts above...
and then read YOUR reply.

Do YOU like theology???

P.S. posts: 879 and 881