Not By Works

[FranC]

Nope did not miss those scriptures at all and they do not contradict the scriptures already posted. That is talking about works versus the Law written on the heart (New Covenant). The Chapter is describing the place of the God's Law in righteousness by faith v 15

My point is that as you have wrongly assumed the Gentiles were not "Under the Law". God's Word says that both Jews and Gentiles are "under the law" because the Law convicts us of sin and that we are all sinners and guilty before God (previous post 21126). It is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. It may be time to rethink what you believe about God's Word don't you think?

Hope that is helpful

God bless.

Hi LoveGodForever,

Could we say this:

Being under the Law means that someone is trying to gain and keep salvation by doing works.
I mean by WORKING THEIR WAY into he Kingdom.
This is not possible.
P.S. to clarify, I mean that WORKS ALONE do not save. Jesus must be in the equation.

For instance, when the Israelites were freed from Egypt, they tried to KEEP THE LAW that was written on stone.
This was impossible and counted for nothing.

BUT, there were saved persons in the O.T. too.
They were saved the same way people are today... BY FAITH.
So those by faith also worked, but it was their FAITH that saved them.

THE LAW WAS NOT ABOLISHED WITH JESUS.
Mathew 5:17

We still must KEEP THE LAW, we must not be lawless. However, we are keeping the Law AND have faith in Jesus and THIS is what saves.


1 John 3:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Lawlessness is sin because it brings disorder, which is what lawlessness means. And God's Kingdom is very orderly.



Also...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [a]from the beginning for salvation through sanctification [c]by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


We are saved by grace
through sanctification by the SPIRIT and FAITH in the TRUTH.

Jesus and HIS WORDS are the truth.
All He taught and preached and commanded IS THE TRUTH.
Which is what saves us.

 

[FranC]

I was thinking about this concept of a seal on a letter.
A seal is the mark of authority, and if unbroken shows who is the person whose authority
this message is being sent.

But it is only valid as long as the seal is not broken. A seal does not guarantee the contents,
unless it is kept and left alone, else it could be tampered with and therefore is not unreliable.

So let us be very cautious to suggest a seal is something eternal, unless unbroken.

The idea of absolute security is certainly addictive, as you can see many religious fanatics throw
their lives away believing this, and throughout the ages there have always been people who do
this for many different creeds.

So rather than the seal guaranteeing something cannot be lost, rather it is a guarantee that if
the message is kept pure and whole, it has the authority of God. So it actually supports the idea
salvation or the promise can be lost, and is not without conditions.

Hi PJ

The seal concept doesn't work in ANY way that could be undertood when coupled with the rest of scripture.

We say that verses cannot be taken out of context, and yet this one is all the time.

We ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit for as long as we remain in Him. Of course.
If we need to understand that the SEAL CANNOT BE BROKEN, this is fine.

Documents were sealed and sent out.
They were rescinded by a second document that was sealed and sent out to the poplulation or another king.

SO THERE WAS NO ASSURANCE ANYWAY --- that the first one would not be rescinded !

There is NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION
except for our REMAINING IN JESUS AND DOING WHAT HE COMMANDED.

So, yes. some good thoughts!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NNM

Your question is very important so I made a note of it not to forget.

Who were the 5 virgins??
Mathew 5:1-13

As you know, the N.T. speaks a lot about Jesus coming back like a thief in the night and how we must be ready for him.
Here are some verses:


Revelation 3:3 (Jesus speaking)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.


1 Thessalonians 5:2-6
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Revelation 16:15 (Jesus speaking)
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Luke 21:34-35 (Jesus speaking)
“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luke 12:35-40 (Jesus speaking)
“Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

Matthew 25:13
“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Mark 13:32-35 (Jesus speaking)
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—

2 Peter 3:10 — But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

If you notice, I've indicated when it's Jesus speaking.
Why?
Because there's this movement in our churches which was begun by Calvin. It states that once you are born again you cannot lose this salvation.

JESUS did not agree with this. If there is any doubt about anything, we must go to what Jesus said since HE IS THE NEW COVENANT, and I do believe He knew why He came to this earth.

He constantly told us that we must be ready for His return.
Ready in what way?

In John 14:26 Jesus says that He will send a helper, the Holy Spirit, who will TEACH US and bring to remembrance all that Jesus had said.

In Mathew 28:19 Jesus sends out the Apostles on the Great Commission. He told them to make disciples of all nations, batpize, and teach them to observe all that He COMMANDED.

JESUS said these things, not me --- as some on these threads might think.

So it's apparent that the five virgins were not lost since they left together to go MEET THE GROOM. They felt they were ready, and left together. But they did not take oil. When they realized what a mistake they had made, they went to get the oil, BUT IT WAS TOO LATE. The groom came and took with him the ones who WERE READY.

So if we put all scripture together, we cannot escape the fact that Jesus wants us to be ready. He wants us to remember all that He taught and that the Holy Spirit reminds us of, and all that He commanded.

Some on these threads would have us believe that we believe on Jesus ONE TIME and we are saved forever.
This is not true.

After salvation we must endeavor to follow Jesus as a Master or Teacher or Lord, since we have decided to become His disciples, as He commanded the Apostles to make disciples of all nations. Mathew 28:19

So, I'd say that they were not unbelievers beause they DID LEAVE FOR THE ENCOUNTER. As those who become born again.
But then give no importance to the words of Jesus and teach easy believism, incorrect in the eyes of our Lord.

They were not reprobate since the did WANT TO GO to the groom.

Lukewarm? I don't know, since Jesus said the we only need the faith of a mustard seed, this means that ANY AMOUNT of faith will save you. What you don't have, Jesus will make up.

Mark 9:24
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

So, the amount of faith is not important. What IS important is that we have faith in Jesus and LIVE FOR HIM.
Which means to be His discples, which means to BE and to DO as He instructed.

And where we lack, He will cover us.
But we are not to go around speaking as though all we have to do is believe one time and we will be secure forever.
JESUS NEVER gave us that Assurance. He DID DO SO for as LONG as we stay with Him, and staying with Him means following HIS rules, not the rules man has made up --- one of which is that salvation cannot be lost.

Lost sheep are those that wander off from the Shepherd.
They were WITH the shepherd.
And THEN they wandered off and became LOST.

Just stay with Jesus and be ready by doing your best and be happy!

so are you saying they LOST their salvation?

or NEVER had it?

to me it seems the 5 foolish virgins would be like people who have heard of Jesus

but never changed their ways
(dead faith)

James 2:14-17

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi LoveGodForever,

Could we say this:

Being under the Law means that someone is trying to gain and keep salvation by doing works.
I mean by WORKING THEIR WAY into he Kingdom.
This is not possible.
P.S. to clarify, I mean that WORKS ALONE do not save. Jesus must be in the equation.

For instance, when the Israelites were freed from Egypt, they tried to KEEP THE LAW that was written on stone.
This was impossible and counted for nothing.

BUT, there were saved persons in the O.T. too.
They were saved the same way people are today... BY FAITH.
So those by faith also worked, but it was their FAITH that saved them.

THE LAW WAS NOT ABOLISHED WITH JESUS.
Mathew 5:17

We still must KEEP THE LAW, we must not be lawless. However, we are keeping the Law AND have faith in Jesus and THIS is what saves.

1 John 3:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Lawlessness is sin because it brings disorder, which is what lawlessness means. And God's Kingdom is very orderly.

Also...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [a]from the beginning for salvation through sanctification [c]by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

We are saved by grace
through sanctification by the SPIRIT and FAITH in the TRUTH.

Jesus and HIS WORDS are the truth.
All He taught and preached and commanded IS THE TRUTH.
Which is what saves us.

Hi FranC,

I understand what your saying though I think the scriptures read different depending in the application and context. Under the Law with the scriptures I quoted earlier are in relation to people guilty of breaking God's Law. However, the same outcome is achieved by someone trying to keep the works of the Law for salvation because we know that we cannot obey God's Law in our own strength because all God's Law does is point out sin so that all the world may become guilty before God and shows us that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. You will notice however that the scriptures are used slightly different in this manner. Previous "Under the Law" mean guilty of breaking God's Law but other scriptures when referring to what your saying use the term "works of the Law" e.g...

Rom 9:32,
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Hope that makes sense? Late me time (tired mind zzz)

 

[Grace777x70]

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Paul said that "coveting" was in the Law and it includes the 10 commandments.

Saying that some laws are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision and the Sabbath day is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law

( Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us.

The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were not meant to eat from that tree. That is for God.

We were meant to eat from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself. Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )

 

[LoveGodForever]

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it.

Hi Grace777,

Could I suggest, instead of always cutting and pasting the same old stuff maybe pause and take a deep breath, and read what people are actually saying? You might just see that no one is saying what you think they are saying. Just a thought

God bless

 

[gb9]

Hi Grace777,

Could I suggest, instead of always cutting and pasting the same old stuff maybe pause and take a deep breath, and read what people are actually saying? You might just see that no one is saying what you think they are saying. Just a thought

God bless

we see what you are saying, works salvationism. you and others may not be saying it directly, but any form of do in order to get is salvation by works.

Titus 3 whole chapter is a great way to explain how grace and works should be.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace777,

Could I suggest, instead of always cutting and pasting the same old stuff maybe pause and take a deep breath, and read what people are actually saying? You might just see that no one is saying what you think they are saying. Just a thought

God bless

I know exactly what is being said in the signature that has this website in it. This is a Judaizing spirit that is anti-Christ at it's very core.

We are not ignorant of the enemies devices my friend nor are we ashamed of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work nor will we desert Christ for going back to the law. Romans 7:1-7

https://www.beastsmark.com/markofthebeast

Here are a few quotes.


THE MARK OF THE BEAST COMES FROM LEGISLATED LAWS OF ENFORCED SUNDAY WORSHIP AND BREAKING ANY OF GOD"S COMMANDMENTS

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE FOREHEAD = TO BELIEVE IN SUNDAY WORSHIP AND TO OBEY IT

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE HAND = TO OBEY (You don't need to believe in Sunday Worship)

God’s seal is His name, character and law written in His people’s hearts and minds. These characteristics are seen in His 7th day Sabbath commandment, which identifies Him as our Creator (Ex 20: 10).

God's true followers are identified as those who resist the mark of the beast and keep God's 7th Day Sabbath Holy. They are identified as “keeping the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12)

 

[FranC]

so are you saying they LOST their salvation?

or NEVER had it?

to me it seems the 5 foolish virgins would be like people who have heard of Jesus

but never changed their ways
(dead faith)

James 2:14-17

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Hi NNM

You're agreeing with my post to you.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I'd say that the 5 virgins in Mathew 25 that did not have enough oil, heard of the Groom and went to meet Him but they were not PREPARED for Him.

So, I'd say that the 5 virgins, or bridesmaids, were probably saved since the DID go out to meet the Groom. They were interested in being bridesmaids and in helping to prepare for the wedding feast.

However the were not PREPARED. The reason for the parable is that we are to be prepared. Not all of us will be here when Jesus returns, but we will all see the end when we die - and that's what we're preparing for.

So the foolish bridesmaids WERE NOT PREPARED, and so the Groom left without them.

The wise bridesmaids wanted to be sure to have enough oil. The prepared for any eventuality.
The oil, of course, would be what we do for the Kingdom.

At the wedding the doors get closed and the bridesmaids that were late could not be let in.
The state of sinners and saints will be determined and the two cannot mix.

So, yes, James is saying that our faith without works is a dead faith -- a faith that is of no value.

So were the unwise bridesmaids ever saved?
I believe they were. This reminds me of the parable of the sower:
Mathew 13:20-21
They hear the word, but then fall away. The salvation is temporary.

Let's remember that the point of the parable is to be ready and prepared.


I think you agree from you posted scripture.

 

[FranC]

I know exactly what is being said in the signature that has this website in it. This is a Judaizing spirit that is anti-Christ at it's very core.

We are not ignorant of the enemies devices my friend nor are we ashamed of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work nor will we desert Christ for going back to the law. Romans 7:1-7

https://www.beastsmark.com/markofthebeast

Here are a few quotes.


THE MARK OF THE BEAST COMES FROM LEGISLATED LAWS OF ENFORCED SUNDAY WORSHIP AND BREAKING ANY OF GOD"S COMMANDMENTS

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE FOREHEAD = TO BELIEVE IN SUNDAY WORSHIP AND TO OBEY IT

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE HAND = TO OBEY (You don't need to believe in Sunday Worship)

God’s seal is His name, character and law written in His people’s hearts and minds. These characteristics are seen in His 7th day Sabbath commandment, which identifies Him as our Creator (Ex 20: 10).

God's true followers are identified as those who resist the mark of the beast and keep God's 7th Day Sabbath Holy. They are identified as “keeping the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12)

You do have this habit though Grace.
I've mentioned this to you.

It makes it difficult to have a real conversation which is why I
don't respond to your posts, not because I don't WANT to.

I do wish that your posts would be more personal and get to some meat...
but this would have to be your wish.

 

[Grace777x70]

we see what you are saying, works salvationism. you and others may not be saying it directly, but any form of do in order to get is salvation by works.

Titus 3 whole chapter is a great way to explain how grace and works should be.

They do it by deceptive means but we are not ignorant of this tactic. I love the attempted spiritual manipulation that these types do to pervert the gospel.

They say - "I am only giving you the word of God. We are to believe God and not man. Why don't you believe the word of God? Do you love Jesus?"

What they are really saying is "If you don't believe what I believe - then you don't believe the word of God nor love Jesus."

We don't fall for this religious garbage.

This is all spiritual manipulation and it is witchcraft - which is a work of the flesh. Gal. 5:19 - Witchcraft is the mixing of things together to get a desired result.

We are not ignorant of these types of schemes nor will we fall for this religious nonsense.

Paul said that he didn't put up with this for even one hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with the Galatians.

Galatians 2:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NNM

You're agreeing with my post to you.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I'd say that the 5 virgins in Mathew 25 that did not have enough oil, heard of the Groom and went to meet Him but they were not PREPARED for Him.

So, I'd say that the 5 virgins, or bridesmaids, were probably saved since the DID go out to meet the Groom. They were interested in being bridesmaids and in helping to prepare for the wedding feast.

However the were not PREPARED. The reason for the parable is that we are to be prepared. Not all of us will be here when Jesus returns, but we will all see the end when we die - and that's what we're preparing for.

So the foolish bridesmaids WERE NOT PREPARED, and so the Groom left without them.

The wise bridesmaids wanted to be sure to have enough oil. The prepared for any eventuality.
The oil, of course, would be what we do for the Kingdom.

At the wedding the doors get closed and the bridesmaids that were late could not be let in.
The state of sinners and saints will be determined and the two cannot mix.

So, yes, James is saying that our faith without works is a dead faith -- a faith that is of no value.

So were the unwise bridesmaids ever saved?
I believe they were. This reminds me of the parable of the sower:
Mathew 13:20-21
They hear the word, but then fall away. The salvation is temporary.

Let's remember that the point of the parable is to be ready and prepared.


I think you agree from you posted scripture.

hmmmm
(for on lookers convenience)
Matthew 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


the seed is the truth

but wouldnt his DEAD faith mean he NEVER accepted the sacrifice?


John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

 

[FranC]

we see what you are saying, works salvationism. you and others may not be saying it directly, but any form of do in order to get is salvation by works.

Titus 3 whole chapter is a great way to explain how grace and works should be.

gb9

I've often used Titus 3.

What is it saying according to you?

It's saying that we need TWO things to be saved:

1. God's grace

2. Works

So why do I hear so much talk AGAINST works??
I don't hear any talk AGAINST GRACE!!!!!!

Works seems to be the problem.

Titus = WORKS

3:1
3:2
3:3
3:8
3:9
3:10
3.11
3:13
3:14


Titus = GRACE

3:4
3:6
3:7
3:15 maybe


I left out 3:5 because it needs to be understood what "deeds done in righteousness" means.

Titus 3:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Deeds done in righteousness are works done by persons who do not know God but are trying to work their way to heaven.
To be saved we need to:
Know God
and
Work for His Kingdom

We need to do both.

So, yes, you did show that good works are necessary.
It's good to now that you agree with this since it is JESUS who taught this and not anyone here on this thread.

 

[Stephen63]

Thanks, I came under tremendous fire once, by someone trying to convince me I was condemned using Hebrews, so I had to understand for myself and the Holy Spirit He does guide and lead in those dark moments ....all glory to Him always!

Ever noticed that some give glory to God only when they need His Name used as a witness to their theology?

Shameful.

 

[Grace777x70]

We "get to do good works" because His life is in us now - we are simply "participating in the family business" - but they are not for salvation nor for maintaining being saved.

That's an anti-Christ belief system that is simply a works-based self-righteousness belief system that denies the very work of Christ and it denies our Lord and Master.

An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Right believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life - will bring right thinking ( repentance ) which will manifest in His life being seen in our lives outwardly as His fruit is borne on us the branches.

This is what produces real godliness based on Christ alone by grace through faith.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our wisdom, our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved".

Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, witchcraft, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

 

[UnderGrace]

It is GRACE that saves us ...FAITH is the process

For by grace THROUGH Faith
Ephesians 2 8-9

Katy-F

Could you read my post to NoNameMcGee, no. 153 just above,
and then tell me WHERE in scripture does Jesus assure us of this salvation we have.

I can't find it anywhere.
Paul talks a little about being sealed in the H.S. and I do believe this for AS LONG as we are IN Christ Jesus and are saved by Him.

But I can't find anwhere that says if we LEAVE Him we are still saved.

Just logically I don't see how you could believe this since it's our FAITH that saves us.
If we lose that FAITH, how are we still saved?

§Then we become like unbelievers again.

Jesus said we are separate from the world and will be persecuted because of it.
Mathew 5:11
Mathew 24:9

If we go back into the world, how are we still Jesus' disciples??

Jesus said to render unto Caeser what is Caeser's and to God what is God's.
Our spirit belongs to God.
If we LEAVE HIM, our spirit goes back into the world and no longer belongs to God.
Mathew 22:21
Romans 13:8-14

 

[mailmandan]

Weak faith may wither too--faith that is weak because of the kind of heart (soil) it's planted in. That's why it's important to be strengthened in your faith, not just have it. So you can endure to the end and be saved. Because that's what believers do--they endure to the end because they continue to believe. People who stop believing, like the 2nd type of soil people, are the ones who wither away.

Unlike saving faith, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. We can see faith that perseveres is the result of seed falling on good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, (properly prepared in heart) and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. The other soils did not persevere because the seed fell on shallow, rocky soil and thorny soil, lacked moisture and had no root (not properly prepared in heart) so of course a lack of perseverance was inevitable. It's obvious what the cause and effect are. The condition of the soil preceded the results.

But at least we all agree that works are required in salvation, not to earn salvation but because saved people have faith--faith that invariably produces fruitful works of life.

Genuine faith does not lack evidential works. If someone claims to have faith yet they have no works at all, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith, dead faith and not genuine faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Hopefully, you're just reiterating what I said and that you don't think I said works save.

Man is saved through faith and not by works, yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[garee]

I understand what your saying though I think the scriptures read different depending in the application and context. Under the Law with the scriptures I quoted earlier are in relation to people guilty of breaking God's Law.

Many do the same.Try and seperate the law of God from the law. His living abiding word is law. No theories in the Bible .

All have sinned all are guilty. If we fail to keep the whole law written in the book of the law, the Bible someone must pay the wage of our sin and must be a "eternal work" .A spiritual work that is not possible to do with a person who has a temporal spirit.

However, the same outcome is achieved by someone trying to keep the works of the Law for salvation because we know that we cannot obey God's Law in our own strength because all God's Law does is point out sin so that all the world may become guilty before God and shows us that all our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Christ according to His work of faith, as a labor of His love alone can keep all of the laws without stumbling. He alone has the eternal strength to give honor to the Father. He fullfilled every requirement ..In doing so we received the reward of His grace and we keep it by guarding it with all our new heart, new spirit soul and mind . Again no man can keep it without stumbling at one point. They have no eternal strength

You will notice however that the scriptures are used slightly different in this manner. Previous "Under the Law" mean guilty of breaking God's Law but other scriptures when referring to what your saying use the term "works of the Law" e.g...

It would seem you are still trying to divide the law from the same law. Under the law means under the authority of Christ. It is His perfect law from the faith of God the eternal one to the same faith as it is written. The works of the law is the works of God . By that perfect law God creates new creatures quickening our souls giving His understanding as a law to us simply ones

Rom 9:32,
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

In the verse you offered whose law of faith did they not seek after? Surely it did not come from the imagination of their own heart?

How did the Jew stumble. It would appear as in the same way you show yourself.

 

[UnderGrace]

Ever noticed that some give glory to God only when they need His Name used as a witness to their theology?

Shameful.

So you know when I give glory to God? Impressive.

their theology..... not likely it is actually THE TRUTH. Good try though