The Rapture
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The strange thing though is that if you notice both camps differ and seem to be in a gridlock over the same issues in Eschatology Rapture,gathering,tribulation,resurrection,mark,12in 12out ect. ect. ...that's where it seems that everyone drifts away into the "foggy grey area" and so is the part where something has to be rearranged.
Just an observation I made in that whether it is something the different writers were debating across the years or if I look at one forum a while and then look at another for a while everyone is at the same point that they were in the 2nd,3rd century church,past or future,past or future,lol. It gets even more complex to read the apostolic fathers writings to at least get a clue as to which it is because they go a couple paragraphs speaking as though this and this is past and then turn around and go the next two paragraphs as if they are futurist.
Some things though sure look like they were fulfilled but some things seem to have multiple responses if ask. There are some things if ask preterism you get one answer but if ask to another you get another. And then if it's all turned around and you ask certain things to dispensationist they all respond differently,lol. They both sound real good up to the foggy grey area though.
Just an observation I made in that whether it is something the different writers were debating across the years or if I look at one forum a while and then look at another for a while everyone is at the same point that they were in the 2nd,3rd century church,past or future,past or future,lol. It gets even more complex to read the apostolic fathers writings to at least get a clue as to which it is because they go a couple paragraphs speaking as though this and this is past and then turn around and go the next two paragraphs as if they are futurist.
Some things though sure look like they were fulfilled but some things seem to have multiple responses if ask. There are some things if ask preterism you get one answer but if ask to another you get another. And then if it's all turned around and you ask certain things to dispensationist they all respond differently,lol. They both sound real good up to the foggy grey area though.
Let's put that theory to the TEST of Scripture.
OH MY, we do NOT have everything that happened to Him in our Bibles:
John 21:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did,
which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even
the world itself could contain the books that would be written.
CLEARLY HE CHOSE NOT TO GIVE US EVERY DETAIL OF THE THINGS
THAT DID HAPPEN AND WOULD HAPPEN, INCLUDING THE RAPTURE.
OH MY, you left out everything that happened to Him from His resurrection to His ascension.
OH MY, you left out everything that happened to Him from His ascension until the time for the SECOND COMING, INCLUDING THESE:
Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)
[SUP]55 [/SUP] But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
[SUP]56 [/SUP] and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Acts 26:12-18 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Thus I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining round me and those who journeyed with me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.'
A branch from these bushes was sometimes used as a cattle prod.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I said, `Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
[SUP]16[/SUP] But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles -- to whom I send you
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Acts 22:17-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] “After I came back to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple complex, I went into a visionary state
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and saw Him telling me, ‘Hurry and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me!’
[SUP]19 [/SUP] “But I said, ‘Lord, they know that in synagogue after synagogue I had those who believed in You imprisoned and beaten.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I was standing by and approving, and I guarded the clothes of those who killed him.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Then He said to me, ‘Go, because I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Acts 18:9-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then the Lord said to Paul in a night vision,“Don’t be afraid, but keep on speaking and don’t be silent.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to hurt you, because I have many people in this city.”
Acts 23:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] When the dispute became violent, the commander feared that Paul might be torn apart by them and ordered the troops to go down, rescue him from them, and bring him into the barracks.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] The following night, the Lord stood by him and said, “Have courage! For as you have testified about Me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.”
NOW, answer me this ONE QUESTION,
"WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE SO MANY WANT TO DENY THE APPEARING OF GOD, THE SON OF MAN, TO CALL OUT HIS BRIDE; WHEN WE HAVE 5 APPEARINGS OF JESUS RECORDED IN THE BOOK OF ACTS, AFTER HIS ASCENSION?"
AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF, YOU WANT TO ERRONEOUSLY LABEL THE SECOND COMING AS the second thing that will happen TO HIM, THE FIRST THING BEING HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
Titus 2:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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I never read that book so it had no influence on my thinking. FYI, the RCC has nothing to do with the "antichrist," Rome under the Caesars did. I guess they were feeling too close to the fire.
I've said this before and will say it again, none of the earliest church writers after the original 12 disciples have written anything about the second coming, or any "antichrist" or beast that I've read thus far. I find that very interesting.
I've said this before and will say it again, none of the earliest church writers after the original 12 disciples have written anything about the second coming, or any "antichrist" or beast that I've read thus far. I find that very interesting.
These are some of the people that lived in the "millenium/thousand years":
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
In the above we have James addressing the the 12 tribes as firstfruits so this places John's revelation in the time period of James and firsfruits of the 12 tribes.
To try and place the firstfruits 2000 years later would make according to "futurist/dispensational theologies" them last fruits.
Try reading the bible without your preconceived bogus "theologies".
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
In the above we have James addressing the the 12 tribes as firstfruits so this places John's revelation in the time period of James and firsfruits of the 12 tribes.
To try and place the firstfruits 2000 years later would make according to "futurist/dispensational theologies" them last fruits.
Try reading the bible without your preconceived bogus "theologies".
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Matthew 24:22-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”
Do you believe in the Biblical FLOOD?
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Matthew 24:22-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”
Do you believe in the Biblical FLOOD?
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Full preterists DO take Jesus at his words:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Doesn't get any clearer than that, except when bogus "theologies" get their hands on the words.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Doesn't get any clearer than that, except when bogus "theologies" get their hands on the words.