Losing Salvation ?!

[PennEd]

Well generally speaking repentance isn't a one time thing. Not to mention ive asked those who continually preach OSAS did they only repent once after they were saved or throughout their lives got no answer. Confessing shows acknowledgement to wrongdoing and respect to God for sinning against him. If people get in the habit of believing "im saved so i dont have to address God regarding anything" that's pretty disrespectful imo.

This seems to me to be a lack of understanding of THE Gospel unto Salvation.

We repent (change our mind) ONE time in regards to WHO Jesus is AND WHAT Jesus has done. So we confess He is Lord and He died for our sin, and He rose to life.

At THAT point we are BORN AGAIN. It is a NEW birth. A NEW creation.

We don't say "Yes Jesus is the ONLY Way for Salvation" Then say "No. There is another way, or I don't really need a savior".

Now the devil may try and and make you THINK you are no longer a son, but the Father still knows you are His, and He will always draw His children to Him. BECAUSE WE ARE HIS CHILDREN!

I simply can't understand why people don't get that we are Spiritually BORN HIS CHILD when we accept His Son.

The indwelling Holy Spirit will reveal to us what changes and sinful activities we need to turn from AND give us the ability to do it.

 

[followjesus]

Who is Hebrews 6 adressing to ?

Believers ,the same as everything in the Bible is addressed to. the idea that it differs from scripture to scripture is ridiculous and a way for false doctrine to explain away Gods Word. if its in the Bible, its to be believed by and Christian. the issue is only believing what we think is acceptable and not comprehending that one scripture isnt everything or one chapter. the Word of God interprets its own self when all is accepted.

precept builds upon precept, scripture upon scripture to bring a comprehensive and very clear message from God to the One who believes His Word in every area. if i want to persuade a person to believe me, ill then explain why you need to only believe the scripture i tell you to beliueve. i can invent many reasons why " this one is written by a jew, to only jews. or that book was mistakenly added to the bible" or this ones irrelevant because you need to first Hear what im saying to Know what applies to you" countless number of inventions out there Gods Word is Like it is for a reason and will never change.

there is no difference in christ between a person 2000 years ago or now, a jew or a gentile, male or a female, no matter the shade of skin, no matter what we were in the past, or where we have been in the past, noi matter where we came from, or what we have or have not accomplished in Life. Gods Word is meant for those who will believe.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who is Hebrews 6 adressing to ?

Professing believers as in any context of those claiming to be followers of God. OT examples will apply here as well concerning the children of Israel among whom not all were genuine believers, yet God was Savior (note 1 Timothy 4:10) of all of them, but not of all of them in an eternal life type of salvation as He is to all genuine believers.

IOW He gave providence to all of them in food, drink, health, deliverance, thus He was Savior of all, but as far as eternal life salvation that is only unto "those who believe" (note again 1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[garee]

So I then must hear and do all He taught me to do?

We must hear as he gives us the ears to hear what the Spirit is saying as a work of exercising his faith that works in us .It is Christ who works in us to both will and does his good pleasure. We cannot take creddit for his work. That would be blasphemy. If he began it he will finish and not maybe finish it till the end. I he has not begun the good work there would be nothing to finish.

 

[garee]

You should take it up with the Lord.... those of us that believe will be given the reward according to our works... and that is the Words of the Messiah.

Everyone receives reward of the work of Christ that works in the beleiver. His faith without works is dead They alone will be given His reward of eternal life. It is God that makes one person differ from another. Some would try and convince others what they do have they did not receive it freely, Christ calls them workers of inniwuity and syas to them I never knew you

 

[Nehemiah6]

Non-OSAS is only different in that it says the believer can stop believing, and as a result be lost.

And this is the doctrine that has no foundation in Scripture. It is purely hypothetical. If the believer has been genuinely born again, this is an impossibility since every believer is PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of God's Son (Rom 8:29). This is not predestination for salvation but predestination for glorification, and for obtaining the eternal inheritance which God has reserved for His children Please note
( Ephesians :1-6;Titus 3:4-7)

​

1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[loveme1]

Everyone receives reward of the work of Christ that works in the beleiver. His faith without works is dead They alone will be given His reward of eternal life. It is God that makes one person differ from another. Some would try and convince others what they do have they did not receive it freely, Christ calls them workers of inniwuity and syas to them I never knew you

I have yet to see a person born of the Holy Spirit try to take credit for anything...

a worker of iniquity?



Psalm




32 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lordimputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about.
11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.






Amazing Grace...taught my heart to fear and my fears relieved....

 

[loveme1]

We must hear as he gives us the ears to hear what the Spirit is saying as a work of exercising his faith that works in us .It is Christ who works in us to both will and does his good pleasure. We cannot take creddit for his work. That would be blasphemy. If he began it he will finish and not maybe finish it till the end. I he has not begun the good work there would be nothing to finish.

What doctrine do you adhere to? Are you of a denomination?

 

[PHart]

And this is the doctrine that has no foundation in Scripture. It is purely hypothetical. If the believer has been genuinely born again, this is an impossibility since every believer is PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of God's Son (Rom 8:29). This is not predestination for salvation but predestination for glorification, and for obtaining the eternal inheritance which God has reserved for His children Please note
( Ephesians :1-6;Titus 3:4-7)

​

1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Being predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ means that's the path upon which you are traveling as a Christian. That's where God is taking you. To exaggerate the point, you didn't get saved to turn out as a frog, or a horse. Born again people are predestined to grow up into the image and stature of Christ.

This hardly excludes the possibility that the predetermined outcome of being a believer can not be preempted by a decision to no longer believe. You don't even have to know the answer to whether one can stop believing to understand predestination this way.

The point is, being predetermined to look a certain way in salvation does not have to be interpreted as you are interpreting it. It can simply mean there is a predetermined outcome for the person who has faith.....provided they stay in the faith to the very end. Can you see the difference between that and what you're saying?

 

[PHart]

Now the devil may try and and make you THINK you are no longer a son...

By far the bigger problem in the church at large is people being deceived by the devil that they are children of God when the reality is that they are not.

I do not encounter the problem of believers being persuaded by the devil that they are no longer sons. It is people who fall from the faith that DO NOT CARE about what the devil says trying to make them think they are no longer a son. If anything, the opposite is true: The devil is making sure they justify and rationalize their unbelief and rejection of Christ so that they feel 'okay' with God despite their rejection of Christ. This I do see in the church at large....in fact, right here in forums like this.

Apostates declare their liberty from God, but always make it so they are still 'okay' with the God they have rejected. Even atheists will make sure you know how charitable they are in this weird need to still be justified before a God they are sure does not exist. Anybody who's done even a little evangelism knows that Christ rejectors rarely accept the fact that they are separated from God. They invent many doctrines that make it so they are okay with the God they reject.

, but the Father still knows you are His, and He will always draw His children to Him. BECAUSE WE ARE HIS CHILDREN!

I agree it is the true sons of God continuing in their believing that care about being a child of God and respond with anxiety to the threat from the enemy that they have somehow fallen from sonship. And that is a good thing. It is the believers who no longer care about sonship and who have fallen away from believing that don't care and are in no way hurt by taunts of the enemy of no longer being in Christ. They hear the opposite: He tells them they are still okay with God despite their rejection and departure from Him.

I simply can't understand why people don't get that we are Spiritually BORN HIS CHILD when we accept His Son.

The problem is you can't understand that sonship is simply having the Holy Spirit inside of you, and thinking He can't leave a person just as easily as He came in. Belief is what brought Him into the believer, a return to unbelief is what will eventually speed His exit from the ex-believer. It's really quite simple. But the church has invented this rock that even God can't move--the absolute inability of the Holy Spirit to move out of a person as easily as He moved in.

 

[Jackson123]

By far the bigger problem in the church at large is people being deceived by the devil that they are children of God when the reality is that they are not.

I do not encounter the problem of believers being persuaded by the devil that they are no longer sons. It is people who fall from the faith that DO NOT CARE about what the devil says trying to make them think they are no longer a son. If anything, the opposite is true: The devil is making sure they justify and rationalize their unbelief and rejection of Christ so that they feel 'okay' with God despite their rejection of Christ. This I do see in the church at large....in fact, right here in forums like this.

Apostates declare their liberty from God, but always make it so they are still 'okay' with the God they have rejected. Even atheists will make sure you know how charitable they are in this weird need to still be justified before a God they are sure does not exist. Anybody who's done even a little evangelism knows that Christ rejectors rarely accept the fact that they are separated from God. They invent many doctrines that make it so they are okay with the God they reject.




I agree it is the true sons of God continuing in their believing that care about being a child of God and respond with anxiety to the threat from the enemy that they have somehow fallen from sonship. And that is a good thing. It is the believers who no longer care about sonship and who have fallen away from believing that don't care and are in no way hurt by taunts of the enemy of no longer being in Christ. They hear the opposite: He tells them they are still okay with God despite their rejection and departure from Him.



The problem is you can't understand that sonship is simply having the Holy Spirit inside of you, and thinking He can't leave a person just as easily as He came in. Belief is what brought Him into the believer, a return to unbelief is what will eventually speed His exit from the ex-believer. It's really quite simple. But the church has invented this rock that even God can't move--the absolute inability of the Holy Spirit to move out of a person as easily as He moved in.

yep, when we read matt 7 and 27 a lot of people think they are children of God but Jesus said Depart from me I do not know you, because when I am hungry you not feed me

 

[PHart]

As per usual you don't know what you're talking about. You continue, incessantly to not understand the difference between descriptive and prescriptive texts. You are, frankly (albeit it perhaps in ignorance) preaching another gospel -- Galatians 1:8-10.

You are certainly free to explain how the 'little ones who believe in Jesus', in Matthew 18:6, aren't really people who genuinely believe in Christ, and how stumbling blocks who cause them to go to the eternal fire simply doesn't mean that at all.

Basically Christ sort of saved you, but it is up to you now.

Your continued salvation is no more or less up to you than it was up to you to be saved when you first believed. If you can understand how it wasn't up to you to get saved when you first believed, yet you were required to trust, then you can understand how it isn't up to you to stay saved through the requirement to continue to trust.

Hopefully, people are beginning to see that the question isn't whether or not the ex-believer will be condemned to hell. The only meaningful question is can the believer ever really stop believing. We know what will happen if he does. That's clear in the Bible. What we struggle with is if the genuine believer who stops believing is only a hypothetical scenario.

Sounds like a sci-fi flick, but it definitely isn't the Gospel. You just cannot discern descriptive/prescriptive texts, and no matter how hard you try, there is no getting by the fact you are saving yourself.

Show me the scripture that says to continue in the exact same uninterrupted believing that began when I first got saved is the equivalent of me trying to earn my salvation by merit of my own works and I will exit this and all Christian forums and never utter another word about it, and I will publically admit my error in a brand new thread for everyone to see.

God's elect will never perish as per His word.

You say they will.

Yes! God's elect will never perish. That's why you need to stay in the elect! The elect is where you are safe and kept by God. The elect are chosen on the basis of faith in Christ. Stay in the faith to stay in God's elect, his chosen. They are the only people who will make it through the coming Judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If salvation can be lost, it is not salvation,

you are not saved until you are out f danger, as long as you are in danger, you may be in the process to of being saved, but you are not saved,

Since you are not ye "saved", you can not lose salvation,

so so either way the answer is no.

as for hen 6, it s talking to people who tasted the word, share in the gift of the HS by association with gods people, but never t Ok the step of faith to actually be a true part of tha family,

who believed we must return to law or add law because grace was not enough, because we can fall away

the bibles response, if hey could fall away, they could never get resaved, hey would be lost forever, for the crucify Christ again, (if salvation could be lost, Christ would have return again to resave them. Thus saying salvation can be lost puts him to open shame .

 

[PennEd]

Phart, "By far the bigger problem in the church at large is people being deceived by the devil that they are children of God when the reality is that they are not."

Please reread what you wrote above. It is the very definition of judging people's hearts.

"I do not encounter the problem of believers being persuaded by the devil that they are no longer sons. It is people who fall from the faith that DO NOT CARE about what the devil says trying to make them think they are no longer a son. If anything, the opposite is true:"

You're very next words contradict what you just said:
"I agree it is the true sons of God continuing in their believing that care about being a child of God and respond with anxiety to the threat from the enemy that they have somehow fallen from sonship. And that is a good thing. It is the believers who no longer care about sonship and who have fallen away from believing that don't care and are in no way hurt by taunts of the enemy of no longer being in Christ. They hear the opposite: He tells them they are still okay with God despite their rejection and departure from Him."


Again there seems to be a Spiritual blindness in part of who we are when we are Born again, a new creation in Christ:

"The problem is you can't understand that sonship is simply having the Holy Spirit inside of you, and thinking He can't leave a person just as easily as He came in. Belief is what brought Him into the believer, a return to unbelief is what will eventually speed His exit from the ex-believer. It's really quite simple. But the church has invented this rock that even God can't move--the absolute inability of the Holy Spirit to move out of a person as easily as He moved in."
Sometimes I think there is a basic misunderstanding of a thesis. I am talking about a person who IS born again by belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and His resurrection. By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into the sonship of God. NOT those who NEVER were born again.

So they ARE saved. They ARE a child of God.


If I understand you correctly, you are saying the SAVED person, who IS a child of God can somehow, by their own will, disavow that they were EVER born?

Again. The person was born anew. Is a sheep. Somehow rejects that he IS a sheep and morphs into a goat?
Again. A person is a cucumber. Is Baptized (really the same term used to describe a cucumber being dipped into a vinegar solution to become a pickle) by the Holy Spirit, and becomes a pickle, and then somehow by it's own will becomes a cucumber again?

Can't you see how silly it is to believe one day you were Born again, a NEW creation, and then by your will, UNBORN
yourself?

 

[PHart]

If salvation can be lost, it is not salvation,

you are not saved until you are out f danger, as long as you are in danger, you may be in the process to of being saved, but you are not saved,

Since you are not ye "saved", you can not lose salvation,

so so either way the answer is no.

as for hen 6, it s talking to people who tasted the word, share in the gift of the HS by association with gods people, but never t Ok the step of faith to actually be a true part of tha family,

who believed we must return to law or add law because grace was not enough, because we can fall away

the bibles response, if hey could fall away, they could never get resaved, hey would be lost forever, for the crucify Christ again, (if salvation could be lost, Christ would have return again to resave them. Thus saying salvation can be lost puts him to open shame .

So do you believe salvation is secure because the believer will never stop believing, or because God will never give you up no matter what you believe?

It's funny how Hebrews 6:4-6 is interpreted by the church as meaning if the unbeliever who never believed rejects the gospel can't ever later be saved. I think it unreasonable for the passage to mean everyone has to accept Jesus as savior on the first pass of the gospel in their heart because God will not allow a second chance to be saved by the gospel. And then, even more funny, to then say that once you are a believer you can reject the gospel and you will still be saved, as H-grace teaches. Seriously folks, we're messed up. Bad.

 

[Jackson123]

Martin was life in the time where church salu indulgence. They sale forgiveness. To counter that action, Martin remind people that salvation is by faith alone, not by work.

is that mean Martin encourage Christian to be Killer anyway what ever you do as long as you believe in Jesus, you are His children, not His slave.

not in that context, it all the way a round. He said salvation by faith alone to counter the crime of forgiveness trading, not encourage crime.

he encourage work in the sense of love work, but discourage crime work.

that is why he said, salvation is by faith alone but faith that saved is not alone

yep faith that saved will bear fruit of the Holy Spirit.

​there is correlation between faith and loving work, not crime work

 

[gb9]

So do you believe salvation is secure because the believer will never stop believing, or because God will never give you up no matter what you believe?

It's funny how Hebrews 6:4-6 is interpreted by the church as meaning if the unbeliever who never believed rejects the gospel can't ever later be saved. I think it unreasonable for the passage to mean everyone has to accept Jesus as savior on the first pass of the gospel in their heart because God will not allow a second chance to be saved by the gospel. And then, even more funny, to then say that once you are a believer you can reject the gospel and you will still be saved, as H-grace teaches. Seriously folks, we're messed up. Bad.

what is bad and messed up is the blending of faith, works, grace, created by plucking verses out, and then building theology around them. like you do with Hebrews 6 4-6.

you do understand that Hebrews was a letter, written as a letter, with chapters and verses added hundreds of years later. you know that right?

 

[PennEd]

what is bad and messed up is the blending of faith, works, grace, created by plucking verses out, and then building theology around them. like you do with Hebrews 6 4-6.

you do understand that Hebrews was a letter, written as a letter, with chapters and verses added hundreds of years later. you know that right?

He has become so fixated on Hebrews 6 and 10 and HIS interpretations of those verses, that it has become a real stumbling block for him. I sympathize with him. I think many baby Christians, can get mixed up here by trying to swallow the HUGE meat in Hebrews before digesting the milk in other epistles.

 

[PHart]

Hello Mr Hart.

Though Hebrews 10 addresses that we need not offer sacrifices any longer, it doesn't change the meaning of 10:10. Just a few verses later we come across another encouraging statement:
Hebrews10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I'm young and as I read more of the Bible, some of my Theology does change. One thing that hasn't changed when I study, is the confidence I have in Christ's redeeming Work (Phi 1:6).

I believe if someone is saved then they are always saved (I.S.A.S.), and that's the overall picture that is painted in the Bible too.

The important thing is, do you believe in never being able to be lost because the believer will never stop believing, or because there is nothing you can do or believe that can cause God to reject you?



See, the problem the church has is understanding the concept of 'eternal' life. They look at it like this:

"I have eternal life. And since it's eternal I can never stop having it."

When it's quite reasonable to look at it like this:

"Life is indeed eternal. The question is, am I going to continue to possess the life that is eternal?"


The many warnings in scripture to not stop believing in order to be saved certainly make it possible to consider the latter way to look at the nature of eternal life. Even Calvinism defends the necessity to keep believing to the very end (and produce fruit) in order to be saved in the end! But now we have this ugly step sister of Calvinism that is embracing a faith-less, fruitless salvation that still saves, nonetheless. It resembles Calvinism (which I respect) but is clearly not in the direct family line of Calvinism.

The church seems to only be able to think in a box about this subject of eternal life. All their thoughts and perceptions and understandings about it can never venture outside of itself to consider other possible truths. Of course, that's called an 'indoctrination'. And I blame the church leadership for installing this powerful indoctrination in the church. It's amazing how difficult it is to get Christians to consider anything outside of their doctrinal boxes. We don't have to agree with everything outside of our little boxes, but for corn's sake, we should be able to at least give some room for other rational examination of scripture--that's all, just an honest examination. And that is where I find fault in the church. Christians in general seem to be incapable of doing that.

 

[PHart]

He has become so fixated on Hebrews 6 and 10 and HIS interpretations of those verses, that it has become a real stumbling block for him. I sympathize with him. I think many baby Christians, can get mixed up here by trying to swallow the HUGE meat in Hebrews before digesting the milk in other epistles.

Well I'm glad you're not playing the 'judging' card like I did in my post.