The Generations

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B

BeyondET

Guest
#21
#21
The Genealogy of Jesus ~ Matthew 1

Mt1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Mt1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
Mt1:3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,
Mt1:4 Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,
Mt1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
Mt1:6 and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
Mt1:7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,
Mt1:8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram, Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
Mt1:9 Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
Mt1:10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah,
Mt1:11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
Mt1:12 After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
Mt1:13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
Mt1:14 Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eliud,
Mt1:15 Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
Mt1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mt1:17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
 
Kavik

Kavik

Senior Member
#22
Mar 25, 2017
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#22
The set number of generations (14 in your example) is symbolic - you have to also take into account a bit of numerology in the generations, particularly with one of the lines (I don't recall which - I think Matthew's version). The repetition of 14 is way too convenient not to be connected to numerology. For what it's worth, 14 is often indicative of change and transformation.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#23
#23
Kavik said:
The set number of generations (14 in your example) is symbolic - you have to also take into account a bit of numerology in the generations, particularly with one of the lines (I don't recall which - I think Matthew's version). The repetition of 14 is way too convenient not to be connected to numerology. For what it's worth, 14 is often indicative of change and transformation.
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For sure, no doubt about the numerology I like you brought that up, seems there's a few of these in the accounts,

One that comes to mind is the number 12, there are 28 generations from David through Solomon to Joseph the husband of Mary in the Matthew account and There are 40 generations from David through Nathan to Heli, the difference between them is 12 generations, A interesting things I notice is in the Lukes account the 12 additional generations starts with Maath. I just thought that to be of a chuckle considering the numerology that can be found within these verses.

The twelve additional generations in Luke below.

and the son of (40th) Heli,
Lk3:24
the son of (39th) Matthat,
the son of (38th) Levi,
the son of (37th) Melki,
the son of (36th) Jannai,
the son of (35th) Joseph,
Lk3:25
the son of (34th) Mattathias,
the son of (33rd) Amos,
the son of (32nd) Nahum,
the son of (31st) Esli,
the son of (30th) Naggai,
Lk3:26
the son of (29th) Maath,
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#24
#24
Nathan was the (third) son of David while David was in Jerusalem, before that while David was in Hebron David had 6 sons.
Though if I'm not mistaking one son died early after birth.

The 3 and 6 have numerical value as well.

Not sure about the number 10,

There are 10 generations from Adam to Noah and 10 generations from Shem Noah's son to Terah Abraham's father


Are there symbolic meanings for number 10?
 
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Kavik

Kavik

Senior Member
#25
Mar 25, 2017
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#25
Yeah, 12 is another (the 12 Tribes of Israel, 12 Disciples, etc., etc.) Didn't realize 12 also played into the genealogies, interesting!
 
Kavik

Kavik

Senior Member
#26
Mar 25, 2017
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#26
Here's a bit on the number 10 (a cut and paste) -

The esoteric meaning of the number ten is that it is continuing the course outlined by the number nine symbolizes the idea of ​​absolute perfection and a numeric completion, return to the source of all the single digits – one. Cornelius Agrippa said on this subject: “The number ten is named worldwide and the total number, the full path of life, because of the number of repetitions believe, and it contains all the numbers and explain their own, multiplying them. Therefore, it is considered a number of different energies. None of the above .. it’s all “tenth has something of the divine”. In this case, you just named, the divine aspect of the number ten means sky, the highest integrity, absolute fullness, a return to unity on a new level. In its natural aspect ten symbolizes display of nature, matter, performs the will of heaven and the supreme law. In its human aspect, the number ten symbolizes what can be called the divine humanity,

It may also signify independence, infinite potential, wholeness, self-determination, and exploration.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#27
#27
Kavik said:
Here's a bit on the number 10 (a cut and paste) -

The esoteric meaning of the number ten is that it is continuing the course outlined by the number nine symbolizes the idea of ​​absolute perfection and a numeric completion, return to the source of all the single digits – one. Cornelius Agrippa said on this subject: “The number ten is named worldwide and the total number, the full path of life, because of the number of repetitions believe, and it contains all the numbers and explain their own, multiplying them. Therefore, it is considered a number of different energies. None of the above .. it’s all “tenth has something of the divine”. In this case, you just named, the divine aspect of the number ten means sky, the highest integrity, absolute fullness, a return to unity on a new level. In its natural aspect ten symbolizes display of nature, matter, performs the will of heaven and the supreme law. In its human aspect, the number ten symbolizes what can be called the divine humanity,

It may also signify independence, infinite potential, wholeness, self-determination, and exploration.
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Wow that's really cool, thanks a bunch, I really like numerology in the bible there are so many things that can be looked at using numerology is quite fascinating indeed.

If one includes the sons from Hebron then Nathan was the 9th son of David and Solomon was the 10th son,

A interesting numerous thinking along those lines.
 
Kavik

Kavik

Senior Member
#28
Mar 25, 2017
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#28
Welcome - As I understand it, the Jews, like many of their Semitic neighbors, were heavily into numerology; it's no wonder it shows up all over the place historical/religious writings. Perhaps an influence from the Kabbalah.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#29
#29
Kavik said:
Welcome - As I understand it, the Jews, like many of their Semitic neighbors, were heavily into numerology; it's no wonder it shows up all over the place historical/religious writings. Perhaps an influence from the Kabbalah.
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I'm humbled you have shown me a lot of new stuff I've never heard of before thanks again my friend and for "Kabbalah" surely I'm going to study this more. :)

. The literal translation of the word Kabbalah is 'that which is received"
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#30
Jun 26, 2017
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#30
BeyondET said:
In my view the Luke genelogy is pretty much cut and dry, this is the Adam lineage, the only mystery in this account is Heli and who he was, and I don't think logically this person could be any other person but Mary's father who passed the gen to his daughter Mary who gave birth to Jesus. Who took the worlds sin on His shoulders literally.
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The scripture explicitly states that Joseph was the son of Heli:

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

The Matthew genelogy is the king lineage King David was a first generation King and his son Solomon was the second King after David, the only similarity in this account to Luke's account is the 14 generations of Abraham to Kind David, this is where the genelogy splits too the two sons of David, Nathan to Mary and Solomon to Joseph, it doesn't appear to be any hidden lineage or paths or anything like that.


Genealogy of Jesus Luke 3

Lk3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.
He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, and the son of Heli,
Lk3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
Lk3:25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,
Lk3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
Lk3:27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,
Lk3:28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
Lk3:29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,
Lk3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
Lk3:31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,
Lk3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,
Lk3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,
Lk3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
Lk3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,
Lk3:36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
Lk3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan,
Lk3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
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What translation are you using that states "He [Jesus] was the son of Joseph ... AND the son of Heli"?

There is no word for "and" in the Greek.

Concerning the three groups of 14 generations in Matthew:

The first:
1) Abraham,
2) Isaac,
3) Jacob,
4) Judah,
5) Perez,
6) Hezron,
7) Ram,
8) Amminadab,
9) Nahshon,
10) Salmon,
11) Boaz,
12) Obed,
13) Jesse,
14) David.

The second:
1) Solomon,
2) Rehoboam,
3) Abijah,
4) Asa,
5) Jehoshaphat,
6) Jehoram,
7) Uzziah,
8) Jotham,
9) Ahaz,
10) Hezekiah,
11) Manasseh,
12) Amon,
13) Josiah,
14) Jeconiah

The third:
1) Shealtiel,
2) Zerubbabel,
3) Abiud,
4) Eliakim,
5) Azor,
6) Zadok,
7) Akim,
8) Eliud,
9) Eleazar,
10) Mattan,
11) Jacob,
12) Joseph (Mary's father)
13) Mary
14) Jesus.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#31
#31
shrume said:
The scripture explicitly states that Joseph was the son of Heli:

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


What translation are you using that states "He [Jesus] was the son of Joseph ... AND the son of Heli"?

There is no word for "and" in the Greek.

Concerning the three groups of 14 generations in Matthew:

The first:
1) Abraham,
2) Isaac,
3) Jacob,
4) Judah,
5) Perez,
6) Hezron,
7) Ram,
8) Amminadab,
9) Nahshon,
10) Salmon,
11) Boaz,
12) Obed,
13) Jesse,
14) David.

The second:
1) Solomon,
2) Rehoboam,
3) Abijah,
4) Asa,
5) Jehoshaphat,
6) Jehoram,
7) Uzziah,
8) Jotham,
9) Ahaz,
10) Hezekiah,
11) Manasseh,
12) Amon,
13) Josiah,
14) Jeconiah

The third:
1) Shealtiel,
2) Zerubbabel,
3) Abiud,
4) Eliakim,
5) Azor,
6) Zadok,
7) Akim,
8) Eliud,
9) Eleazar,
10) Mattan,
11) Jacob,
12) Joseph (Mary's father)
13) Mary
14) Jesus.
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And is a interesting word, in my view the folks long ago when they found and or was passed down the scrolls, they weren't in order some where just fragments, thus the reason why the four gospels have so many AND at the beginning of verses, it was used as a continuation tool from verse to verse.

King David was the a first generation King as well as 14 generations from Abraham that's why Solomon is 2nd generation King.

God Made man from the dirt of ground and the woman from the rib of man, thus the genelogy goes through the men of the bible. Thus reason why Mary is not concidered a generation but of a delivery vessel for Jesus.

It appears you've added or replaced some of the people in Lukes account with ones of Matthew this isn't correct.

There was two people from Lukes account and two people in Matthews account that share the same name as well as in Luke there's about four names that are used twice in Luke different people with the same name,
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#32
#32
Excuse me my bust, you didn't add anything, it was they way you number them, again I'm sorry for my error.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#33
#33
So basically (Heli) is representing the Adam gen, and (Mary) is representing (Eve) who came from Adams rib. thus given birth to Jesus.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#34
Jun 26, 2017
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#34
BeyondET said:
And is a interesting word, in my view the folks long ago when they found and or was passed down the scrolls, they weren't in order some where just fragments, thus the reason why the four gospels have so many AND at the beginning of verses, it was used as a continuation tool from verse to verse.
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Well... I dunno about that. You're saying the gospels are not God-breathed? Or that the manuscripts we have now are not accurate, so a bunch of "ands" were added?

The point remains: there is no "and" in Luke 3:23 saying that Jesus was the supposed son of Joseph and the son of Heli.

King David was the a first generation King as well as 14 generations from Abraham that's why Solomon is 2nd generation King.
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OK. Your point?

God Made man from the dirt of ground and the woman from the rib of man, thus the genelogy goes through the men of the bible. Thus reason why Mary is not concidered a generation but of a delivery vessel for Jesus.
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Mary was Jesus' mother, and a direct descendant of David. Since Jesus' Father is God, if "Mary is not considered a generation", then Jesus is not descended from David.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#35
Jun 26, 2017
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#35
BeyondET said:
So basically (Heli) is representing the Adam gen, and (Mary) is representing (Eve) who came from Adams rib. thus given birth to Jesus.
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???????????????????????????????

Talk about trying to shoehorn an idea into the scriptures. :)

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Why can't you just believe it for what it says?
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#36
#36
shrume said:
???????????????????????????????

Talk about trying to shoehorn an idea into the scriptures. :)

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Why can't you just believe it for what it says?
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The statement about Jesus thirty doesn't mean he was thirty when he was born, I'm not quite understanding what you mean here,?

Joseph didn't contribute to the pregnancy of Mary, Joseph is a symbolic figure only. Though Heli which was a blood relative.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#37
#37
shrume said:
Well... I dunno about that. You're saying the gospels are not God-breathed? Or that the manuscripts we have now are not accurate, so a bunch of "ands" were added?

The point remains: there is no "and" in Luke 3:23 saying that Jesus was the supposed son of Joseph and the son of Heli.


OK. Your point?


Mary was Jesus' mother, and a direct descendant of David. Since Jesus' Father is God, if "Mary is not considered a generation", then Jesus is not descended from David.
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Its similar to new bible translations today, they are based off of past writings, the first actual bible that had came out way back in the day wasn't in scrolls or scribes or simple letters. But these inspirational works was place all together to form what we call today the bible.

King David linage through Solomon is simply just a symbolic one, thus reason why King David is concidered first 1 generation yet at the same time was actually the fourteen blood line of Abraham.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#38
Jun 26, 2017
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#38
BeyondET said:
The statement about Jesus thirty doesn't mean he was thirty when he was born, I'm not quite understanding what you mean here,?
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What I mean is that scripture plainly states that Joseph was the son of Heli.

Joseph didn't contribute to the pregnancy of Mary
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At least we agree on that. :)

Joseph is a symbolic figure only.
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No, he was Mary's actual husband, and Jesus' actual stepfather.

Though Heli which was a blood relative.
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Heli was Joseph's father.

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#39
#39
Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

I do understand your view on Luke 3, as in the last part of the verse points to Joseph, as being son of Heli.

Though here's how I view it, the whole verse is still on the subject of Jesus from the beginning of the verse, 1. Joseph was presumed to father of Jesus this is a profound statement of not knowing if that was true or not, but was the grandson of Heli, 2. the folks that wrote this knew who Mary's father was but wasn't sure about the father of the child, thus the reason why it's mentions as a supposed father. The latter part of the verse is still on the subject of Jesus, and this is known because Jacob in the previous verses is mentioned as Joseph father, one can't have two earthly fathers at the same time. A person can have a grandfather but not two fathers.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#40
#40
huh after reading another post, something came to mind about the numerology, 10 generations to Noah the flood then 10 generations to Terah.

Well Moses brought down 10 commandments then broke them,

went back up the mountain and got another set of 10 commandments.

just something running through my thoughts. Lol
 
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