Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Paul stated the Gentiles while not having the Law, were a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

Yeah I get that God writes His moral law in the hearts of all of humanity...however the keeping of the law does not save because the law reveals that we are all sinners in need of a Savior.


**sidenote: funny avatar...resistance is futile?

 

[mailmandan]

PERSONAL INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!

LOL

Here, I'll start...

I can't go to any Church right now...

But I used to go to a Nazarene Church in Queens NY.
Great Church.
Simple
Basic
Bible believing
Discipleship teaching
Freedom in Jesus
Hate for sin
Understanding of Sin Nature
Great teachings on Book of Romans

Your turn...
Or are you ashamed of the Church you go to???

Are you ashamed of Jesus?

Jesus said IF we're ashamed of HIS WORD, He will be ashamed of us on the last day...

Here you are, can't even tell us what Church you go to,
but you're willing to tell all us WORKERS how wrong we are!

Incredible...

Luke 9:26
New International Version
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

I already said that I attend a non-denominational Christian Church and I live in Missouri. My older brother (who has also attended a Nazarene Church for years) said my Church was very similar to his, in regards to what they teach, the main difference being that his Nazarene Church teaches you can lose your salvation and my Church teaches eternal security of the believer. Other than that I did not see much of a difference in regards to teaching.

Everything you mentioned, Bible believing, Discipleship teaching etc.. check. I am not ashamed of the Church I attend at all and I am certainly not ashamed of Christ, so there is no need to turn Luke 9:26 into a straw man argument. Why do you continuously create straw man arguments? This post sounds more like slander and guess who liked your slanderous post?

 

[royalscot]

Here is one person that believes that we must do works in order to keep being saved as can seen in brown above.

I believe that this poster means well but is coming at it from an angle that is not correct IMO.

Personally I believe that the true Christian life when Christ is manifesting in and through us will result in good works of some sort but it's a fruit of His life being born on us - the branches. Without Him we can do nothing.

There are better ways of talking about good works other than to say we must do them in order to keep being saved. That is not the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

We should be encouraging each other to do good works!

Hebrews 10:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

i agree, with what you said,
but then authority, would be the next question. for why they post, what there posts. etc
the gospel message is not about works. it is telling other about, what jesus did, if it about our works or things we do, then grace is not a gift, but some seek reward , on top of grace. etc

Luke 20: The Authority of Jesus Challenged
1 One day, as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up2 and said to him, "Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority."3 He answered them, "I also will ask you a question. Now tell me,4 was the baptism of John from heaven or from man?"5 And they discussed it with one another, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will say, 'Why did you not believe him?'6 But if we say, 'From man,' all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet."7 So they answered that they did not know where it came from.8 And Jesus said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

 

[mailmandan]

I did not say that the Jewish Sabbath had changed days... it is still on Saturday.

I am not Jewish. I am not still under the old law... I have been freed from that by the sacrifice of Jesus, and the new covenant. ALL of the LAW and the prophets have been covered by two commands... Love God, and love my fellow man.

I worship, and commune with my brothers and sisters as the first century church did..... on the FIRST day of the week.

If you wish to keep the Jewish Sabbath, and pretend to still be under Mosaic law, you are free to do so.

Amen! Well said!

 

[mailmandan]

Non-denominational !!

No wonder.

You're attending the Church of some guy that teaches what HE believes.

My Brother used to attend one.
Very psychological in nature.
He was smart and quit and now goes to a REAL Church.

How does your Church hold to essential Christian doctrine when you don't even believe we must obey our Lord and Savior.

Which means that you accept Jesus as your Savior,
but you can't go all the way and accept Him as you LORD. Sorry, I mean Lord.

Thomas said "My Lord and my God."
John 20:28

Jesus must be God, Savior and Lord
or there's something missing.

This is nothing but slander. You should know better than this.

Your brother did not attend my Church and neither have you so don't even go there.

BTY I accept Jesus as Savior AND LORD. Thomas said "My Lord and my God" and I say, "My Lord and My God." Praise God!

 

[royalscot]

So how do you square up your statement with what is said in Acts royalscot?

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
​

.43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."acts 10



ask, acts 15. since you, have not proven what law, he or she has to repented from.

and ask paul, why he confronted peter in Galatians and instructed him . what law saved him.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3




repenting for a free gift

For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of graceand the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.2Romans 5

 

[mailmandan]

I believe there are genuine Christians in every denomination - SDA, Baptists, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Church of God, Charismatic and yes - even in Pentecostal churches ( where I first went after I received Christ ).

There are certain (actually many) churches that teach false gospels, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the false teachings of those churches. But those who believe the true gospel of grace, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated.

One's church may preach the true gospel of grace. If one believes the gospel, then one has eternal salvation (Romans 1:16). But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct. Regardless of what particular church we attend (denominational, non-denominational or other) the True Church is and always will be the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18,24) which is made up of all genuine born again BELIEVERS/CHRISTIANS.

 

[dcontroversal]

If you bury the gold given you, that is your faith, it will only become soiled.

We must work to enter into His rest.

Mat 25:14 For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
Mat 25:16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
Mat 25:17 In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
Mat 25:20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 And he also that received the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mat 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mat 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mat 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mat 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Sorry....Hebrews states clearly we cease from our OWN LABOR to enter into HIS rest.....your premise above about laboring to enter is false

 

[dcontroversal]

In Matthew 7, their problem was not the fact that they were trying to prove they had a relationship with Christ. For Christ himself speaks of how he will use works to determine who has a relationship with him through faith and, therefore, will go to the right with the sheep, and who doesn't have those works and will go to the left with the goats into hell. These are the works Christ will be looking for at the Judgement as evidence of your relationship with him:

35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ (Matthew 25:35-36 NASB)​

The problem with the people in Matthew 7 is they will not have the works that Christ will be looking for:

"22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’" ​

Christ says it is only the one who "DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER" (vs.21 emphasis mine) will enter the kingdom of heaven. If you do not do the will of the father you go to the left with the goats and go to lake of fire. So you are making a BIG mistake by bashing works as a sign of salvation. A very BIG mistake. Works are very much the evidence that even Christ himself will be looking for at the Judgement to judge you and I as to whether we have the "work and the love" that "accompany salvation" (Hebews 6:9-10 NASB).

The danger to you in bashing works as evidence of salvation is you potentially lead "little ones who believe in (Jesus)" to find false comfort in a works-less, faithless relationship with Jesus that causes them to stumble, fall from their faith and go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9). That's a very, very serious offense. You should stop doing that and instead do what the author of Hebrews says to do:

"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence (love and work--see context) so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6: NASB)

"24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another;and all the more as you see the day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25 NASB)​

Is the author teaching a works gospel and saying that we earn our salvation by our works? Of course not. But the church has been trained to always hear 'works' and 'salvation' in the same discussion as categorically and without exception an argument for a works gospel that can not save. So many people have been led astray by this false OSAS thinking.




Hopefully now you can see how foolish and misguided your argument is. And worse, how it sets you up to be guilty of leading young impressionable young believers in Christ into stumbling so as to go to the fiery hell (Matthew 18:6-9).

Works are what Christ is going to use to determine if you have the faith that justifies (the faith that loves/works--Galatians 5:6) and will, therefore, go to the right with the righteous into the kingdom of God, or whether you will be found to be a works-less, unbelieving, do-nothing goat and will go to the left and into the eternal fire.

No actually I quoted the words of Jesus and made a very valid point....your problem is your working your way there...good luck Phart

 

[dcontroversal]

LOL, grace without truth is like hope without substance.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

What is obvious is that if you are hearing what "Paul 'states clearly' " then you are saved by your works since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

work
wərk/
noun

1. 1.
   activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

Works saves no one....it is faith that saves....eternally...end of story!

 

[royalscot]

you have a personal faith, to grow in gods love, with the holy spirits guidance,

one step, would be, to look at, context to scripture. not context to any given religion.

and an other step , would be asking, what gods plan is, for you life.

ask seek and knock ,

following, step by step, little by little, towards understanding basic context, to these steps. etc

 

[dcontroversal]

If I'm not grossly mistaken, it would seem to me that the CATHOLIC CHURCH began Sunday worship..
since it was the ONLY Church at the time.

So you do like SOME Catholic doctrine??

This whole post reeks.....the disciples met the first day of the week LONG BEFORE THE Universal heretical false non church and to say it was the only church at the time reeks of ignorance and denies the promised perpetuity of the Lord's churches that were already in existence.....wow......!

 

[dcontroversal]

The moral law is not in effect If it is in effect then no one, I mean no one will make it to heaven, Because we all fail to live up to the moral law.

Col 2 tells us that the handwritten ordinances with were against us, contrary to us, and basically condemned us were nailed to the cross.

What were these ordinances? They were the things written in Stone, The things Paul said in galations brought a curse to everyone who did not obey every word. The same curse that Jesus hung on the cross for. The civil laws did not condemn us, The ceremonial laws did not condemn us, The moral law or ten commands did, Why? Because As moses demanded, anyone who does not obey every letter. is under a curse.

As james said, if we commit even the smallest of all sin, we are guilty of the whole law. and seen according to the law as sinners, The penalty is death. (curse)

The fact is when we stand in front of God we will stand in front of him naked, All of our sin will be before us, And every sin having brought with it a death penalty. NO ONE will stand righteous on that day.

The people who will enter in, are the people who have had the blood of Christ cleans them from all sin, The people. who as the day of atonement sacrifice shadowed. Had everything God had against us (the two tablets, the rod that budded, and the manna) which would have condemned us, but the blood of the lamb covered the seat. so when the judge looked in, the things which condemned us were covered, The blood atoned our sin.

Our works will nto save us, Our good deeds are not righteous, or make us righteous, The blood of God is what makes us appear righteous..

Not by works of righteousness which we have done (any good or righteous deeds, which would include water baptism, obeying the sabbath day, honoring our parents etc etc) But by Gods mercy HE SAVED US. by the washing and renewal of the HS.

You can not wash yourself. You can not cleanse yourself. You can not make yourself Holy. Only God can wash us..

Amen to this post........our most righteous works are as filthy rags.....exactly why they do not save and or embellish salvation.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Being judged by works does not equate to being saved or kept saved by works.....the bible is clear...it is faith that saves eternally...not works!

 

[dcontroversal]

smh, How many times do you have to be shown..

Yes, Someone needs to make a recording of this, so next time you ask we can show you have been answered.

Good luck with that.......

 

[mailmandan]

Yeah, baptists.
The whole congregations votes on everything.
very democratic
where is that in the Bible?
Some baptist say you get baptized in their church or it doesn't count.
Some baptists say KJV only or it's the devil's bible.
Some baptists say grape juice is all through the Bible, not wine.
Some baptists say taking a drink of alcohol or smoking a cigarette is a sin against God and they all look down on you.
Some baptists get peeved if the pastor preaches one minute too long because then they'll have to wait in line at the restaurant.

And some people are proud to say their church is just like a baptist.
Frankly, I'd rather go to an SDA church.
I know a lot of born again Christians in those churches.

That's not at all what I meant by "like a baptist church" but you seem determined to mock and attack baptist churches as if they are all exactly the same. I have attended a couple of different baptist churches in the past and only one thing you mentioned in your list (drinking alcohol and smoking) rang a bell with one particular baptist church that I had at one time attended. I know a lot of born again Christians in baptist churches and various other churches for that matter. My older brother is a Christian and he attends the Nazarene church. I have Christian friends who attend an Assemblies of God church and some other Christian friends who attend a Lutheran church and still others who attend non-denominational churches.

 

[royalscot]

if the bible never came out till around 1300 ad.

all the churches and religion and sects , formed after this date, would have to be in context to, the full scriptures.

yet a christian belief system, was already in place inside scripture , waiting for context to be made know.

for this very reason , so that truth can never be followed, by half reasoning. but with full reasoning.

1 Corinthians 12: Spiritual Gifts
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.etc


uninformed
ʌnɪnˈfɔːmd/
adjective
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• not having or showing awareness or understanding of the facts.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"uninformed criticism of conservation projects"[/COLOR]
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]unenlightened, uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unlearned, unread, ignorant"they prey upon uninformed buyers"
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]

 

[mailmandan]

I'd watch for those non'denominational churches if I were you.

It's my turn to bring the rattle snakes to church this Sunday. LOL!

Ten Ways You Know You're in a Bad Church

10. The church bus has gun racks

9. Staff consists of "Senior Pastor, Associate Pastor, and Socio-Pastor"

8. The Bible they use is the "Dr. Seuss Version"

7. ATM in the lobby

6. Services are B.Y.O.S. -- "Bring Your Own Snake"

5. Choir wearing leather robes

4. No cover charge, but communion is a 2 drink minimum

3. Karaoke worship time

2. Ushers ask "Smoking or Non-Smoking?"

1. The only song the church organist knows is "Innagaddadavita"

 

[royalscot]

but then, there used to be third class of people.also

without history, then, what class ,did war come under.

 

[laura_charlotte]

I'd watch for those non'denominational churches if I were you.

Clear obesity correlation on various different levels in that culture.