Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

But YOU said that if one has faith he will have works.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM ???

No problem, The problem is with your interpretation

Will have is saying works are a natural result, or byproduct, or a fruit.

Required is a condition,

Yet you claim you do not preach conditional (works) salvation.

which is it?

 

[SassyServant]

Yes it is true. It is God's mercy that saves us not works. The thief that was crucified next to Jesus was saved by the mercy of Jesus ..if it was based on His works He wouldn't enter God's kingdom. However, before his last breath the thief repented for his sins and accepted Jesus as his Lord and savior . We would all be in hell if it wasn't for God's mercy..we all fall short and sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

She just said, and I quote:" Works do not save us. Our faith in Jesus saves us."

She has also said:" Works keep us saved IN THE SENSE THAT if we are abiding we WILL have good works."

So the problem is something other than you said. You were concerned over "the function and the role" of those works. Carefully read both of the above quotes by fran and see if the problem is still there. And keep in mind those quotes when she says anything later on, noting where you think you are seeing a discrepancy or fracture, because you may not be hearing her INTENT, just as she may not be hearing yours.

She can say it until she is blue in the face, It does not make it a reality

As long as she claims works are required to maintain salvation then she does not in reality believe what she said to begin with.

If a lack of works causes loss of salvation, then works are required to keep salvation. It is all the same, a works based. (not grace based) salvation.

 

[UnderGrace]

She says it is gossiping..... go back 500 pages, where she says so..LOL

I am not gossiping about fran. She can see everything you and I say. I am talking about fran, not gossiping. Gossiping is done behind ones back. And with a bad spirit that revels and has glee in doing it behind ones back.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am confused at the fight....,,


You look at someone who has walked away from the church, he is unrepentant and cursing God..then he dies..

One person says that person was never saved and thus going to hell.

Another says they were saved and lost their salvation and going to hell.


Why does it matter which you believe when you both think the person is going to hell?

We can't do anything for those who are dead but we can speak to those who wander away and rebel against God.

We have to ask one question of that person:

Does the Holy spirit convict them when they sin and are they repentant?

If the answer is yes then they need to be shown how to overcome their sins.

If the answer is no, then they need the gospel and the knowledge that they aren't really saved because they don't get convicted by the Holy spirit.

You have another option.

We can not determine the mans salvation, Only God knows his HEART.

People curse others all the time because they are angry, Yet they still love the person they curse..

We should not try to determine a mans heart.

However, Your right, A person who in their heart denies Jesus and salvation via the cross. and that God even exists (not just in word but in his deepest thoughts. Is not saved, and it would not matter,

it goes deeper than this though. Not all here are just saying a person denies christ, they are talking about works also..

Take the word work out and we may agree.. (except we still should not judge. )

 

[SassyServant]

Yes it is true. It is God's mercy that saves us not works. The thief that was crucified next to Jesus was saved by the mercy of Jesus ..if it was based on His works He wouldn't enter God's kingdom. However, before his last breath the thief repented for his sins and accepted Jesus as his Lord and savior . We would all be in hell if it wasn't for God's mercy..we all fall short and sin.

*his works he wouldn't (suppose to be lowercase)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By grace through faith and that faith not of ourselves so no one can boast.

yes, Salvation is right here, Stop. do not go any further.. and you would be correct.

However, let's get really, really real. There is some work in walking out our faith. We struggle. We often say, but I DO believe, Lord, please help me in this area of mistrust! My pet example: the storing of treasure on earth to be our security and safety net in old age. The fear of what will happen to us when we can't work any more if we obey Him in this (this obedience of trust) and DON'T store treasure on earth.

Yes, But if this is required to maintain or keep salvation. Then your first point is made null and void. Salvation becomes based on works not grace.

Yes, We need to work, but that is sanctification, or christian growth, not a means to eternal life.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She says it is gossiping..... go back 500 pages, where she says so..LOL

Hmm...I missed that post then. She thinks it is gossiping to discuss another person and what they've said??
We discuss Jesus and things He's said 24/7 in here. Are we gossiping about Jesus?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When you say "these works", what works are you referring to. I wasn't mentioning any specific works...I was agreeing with Bruce that a problem is sometimes where one thinks the ORIGIN of works comes from...

Hence the problem

If works come from faith because we trust God Then works are righteous, and proceed from God

If works come from the requirement to keep oneself saved, Then they are self righteous works, done in order to earn, or keep salvation (no difference), and are not done from the power of God. and will be rejected by God as bloody rags. Because they proceeded from the flesh, not from faith.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree.

Up to your first paragraph there, where you say OBEY, I have something to say. Obey to me, is the obedience of faith. I can talk a good talk, but am I in the obedience of trust/faith? If I am, will I store treasure on earth and worry about my 401k or the economy tanking? That's where I see if my mouth can cash the voucher it's made by saying I am in the obedience of trust. And if I won't have the obedience of faith regarding an earthly matter He has commanded me on, should I expect to receive any more? He who is faithful with a little will be given more but he who is not faithful with a little, even what little he has will be taken from him. An earthly matter like money and the storing of it is little compared to trusting what He has said regarding my body being raised again in perfection. Mistrust or disregard of what He has commanded regarding money, food, drink, clothing, a roof over my head, provision - this mistrust and so not doing what He said, it's what began the whole mess, isn't it?

Money, food, shelter, etc are not our possessions but have been entrusted to our care to give to others and enjoy ourselves.

In the Garden of Eden God gave Adam and Eve the whole earth to care for and enjoy, can you imagine just walking by and picking fruit off trees when you are hungry? No need for fridges or stoves? No one ever being hungry?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, she has stated that works keep us saved. Now back to her quote: Works keep us saved IN THE SENSE THAT if we are abiding/trusting in Him, we WILL have good works.

Does the problem still exist?

Yes

Works do not keep us saved, They are a byproduct of salvation, to say that is to teach works, and reject grace.

it does not matter HOW she twists it, it is all the same.

 

[UnderGrace]

Ahh yes.... we are already sanctified ( new creation in Christ) the work is making external what is internal.

When it is external we are conformed to the image of Christ and then He works in us and out of us.

yes, Salvation is right here, Stop. do not go any further.. and you would be correct.




Yes, But if this is required to maintain or keep salvation. Then your first point is made null and void. Salvation becomes based on works not grace.

Yes, We need to work, but that is sanctification, or christian growth, not a means to eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fran has stated all good works has to come from faith in Christ and only when we abide in Him and OBEY him...(capitalized that cuz it's one of her favorite words).

She says works are necessary because she doesn't like lazy bums and is trying to get free loaders to get to work instead of saying Jesus does it all. She is big into personal responsibility and that people should own up to having the ability to choose good and bad. Its her mission to fight against licentious doctrines.

At the same time EG and Dcon have said that AFTER BEING SAVED people will produce fruit and do good works because they are saved. Not in order to maintain or keep or prove their salvation. Their mission is against legalist and those who preach a false gospel attempting to enslave people to man-made laws and traditions of works instead of faith in Jesus finished work upon the cross.

The mood of the thread changes when people feel attacked and unloved and unwanted.

The problem is if I say works are not required, But a result of salvation, Fran and those like her get offended

If people say works are required. Those who believe in grace will appose that thinking as works.

so in this subject, there will never be peace..

 

[UnderGrace]

Excellent question...maybe she (FranC can tell us what she thinks).

I personally think gossiping is done behind someone's back and revealing personal information, but then what do I know I never gossip.

Hmm...I missed that post then. She thinks it is gossiping to discuss another person and what they've said??
We discuss Jesus and things He's said 24/7 in here. Are we gossiping about Jesus?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

yes, Salvation is right here, Stop. do not go any further.. and you would be correct.




Yes, But if this is required to maintain or keep salvation. Then your first point is made null and void. Salvation becomes based on works not grace.

Yes, We need to work, but that is sanctification, or christian growth, not a means to eternal life.

It's like deja vu all over again...
We've had this discussion before. I cannot understand making remaining in trust a "work" as you define "work." Remaining in trust is a necessity. I can't comprehend using trust to save someone and then that someone dumps the trust after they get eternal life. I can't understand - not trying to be dense. I also can't understand the serious...fracture I believe I see that says I only need to trust I will live forever but as far as trusting in the storing of treasure on earth, that's optional. If I trust Him, won't I obey Him? If I don't obey Him, shouldn't I go to Him with the problem?

And I'm not saying this is actually what is in your mind - I'm saying it's what I understand you to be saying.

 

[preacher4truth]

Saying this out of love, perhaps a person needs to worry less about thinking others are gossiping and take a look at self's behavior instead? Isn't that more beneficial? We all get caught up in this, but if it is a lifestyle then there is a problem.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Excellent question...maybe she (FranC can tell us what she thinks).

I personally think gossiping is done behind someone's back and revealing personal information, but then what do I know I never gossip.

I find myself gossiping sometimes and it disgusts me. My mother and aunt pull me into it sometimes. The trick to seeing it is: would I say this to their face or not? Am I repeating something that was told to me in confidence or am I just repeating something they freely put out there for all to see or know? And finally, am I gleefully cutting them down and judging them? Or am I just discussing what they openly said?

 

[UnderGrace]

I hear ya...gossip is rampant at my work. I get pulled in too sometimes.

I like the questions you ask yourself, I do the same, yet sometimes I just have to remove myself completely and then I do not have to worry about it.

I find myself gossiping sometimes and it disgusts me. My mother and aunt pull me into it sometimes. The trick to seeing it is: would I say this to their face or not? Am I repeating something that was told to me in confidence or am I just repeating something they freely put out there for all to see or know? And finally, am I gleefully cutting them down and judging them? Or am I just discussing what they openly said?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The problem is if I say works are not required, But a result of salvation, Fran and those like her get offended

If people say works are required. Those who believe in grace will appose that thinking as works.

so in this subject, there will never be peace..

And meanwhile...blessed are the peacemakers. NOT blessed are those who say there will never be peace until there is capitulation to what I believe and the exact wording of it that I demand. (That applies to BOTH sides of the ongoing lack of peace and refusal to bear with, love and forgive). Said out of love for you and care for you, brother. I hope you believe that I am being sincere when I say that.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well when we remain in grace and peace from there trust will come.

Trusting as a self effort can cause much heartache,...remember Paul always said Grace and Peace

It's like deja vu all over again...
We've had this discussion before. I cannot understand making remaining in trust a "work" as you define "work." Remaining in trust is a necessity. I can't comprehend using trust to save someone and then that someone dumps the trust after they get eternal life. I can't understand - not trying to be dense. I also can't understand the serious...fracture I believe I see that says I only need to trust I will live forever but as far as trusting in the storing of treasure on earth, that's optional. If I trust Him, won't I obey Him? If I don't obey Him, shouldn't I go to Him with the problem?

And I'm not saying this is actually what is in your mind - I'm saying it's what I understand you to be saying.