Is God's Word Inerrant
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Actually, John 3 has some meanings that simply do not carry through into English, and Nicodemus misinterpreted what Jesus was saying.
" Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again (a) he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3
"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]again (a).’" John 3:7
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The reason I think it means "from above," is found in Jesus' answer in verse 7. Jesus has to reduce the complexity of the miracle of spiritual birth down to the simple being born "again" in verses 4-6, and Nicodemus does not understand what Jesus just said in Greek. Jesus is very clear, in verses 4-6, what being born from above means.
"Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:4-6 ESV
Jesus first attempt to converse with Nicodemus, the Pharisee about spiritual birth, was to tell him, it comes from above, or from God. But Nicodemus wrongly takes that to mean, going back into his mother's womb, in which case, being born again, would be the right option.
So, Jesus then comes to Nicodemus' level, by saying, more or less "you want 'born again' well then, so be it." And the evangelical church has picked up Nicodemus error.
And, I might add, which is where I really come in, in this discussion, the error of the KJV, repeated over and over in many modern translations like ESV, which, I have it on authority, by my Greek professor, who was on the translation committeethat they were told repeatedly that they had to stick to the traditions of the KJV, making it only a modernized and erroneous KJV. Many other versions, NIV, HCSB, NASB also use this error in translating.
It is interesting to read this passage in NET, which is translated by some of the best Greek scholars in the world. I understand the annotated version has an explanation for every word choice, but I have been unable to buy a copy for anything that is not an outrageous price. Waiting for the second edition, I guess.
Anyway, please note the difference here, in the use of [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ἄνωθεν [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]in verses 3 and 7 is translated "from above" which is the correct choice. Jesus saying it properly, Nicodemus misinterpreting, Jesus correcting him and saying again, "from above," as in the spiritual rebirth, not born in fleshly bodies, again.
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"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’" John 3:3-7 NET.
Of course, I could give you errors in almost every line of the KJV, because once you understand Greek, (and Hebrew, though I think that is translated better!) you realize the KJV translators, besides using only 7 corrupted very late Greek manuscripts, also did not know Greek as well as an advanced student like me. Which is not to brag, but merely to show that a student today, has a lot more knowledge about Greek than a scholar did 400 years ago. Seriously, any Greek scholar who has studied at all, would not use the KJV for anything, except to show what a bad version it is.
Just to throw that into the mix, for all those who keep bringing up the KJV as somehow being God's choice for the "only" real English version when most people are clueless about the multitude of translational issues.
I totally believe in the inspiration of Scripture. That includes the fact that God has allowed the words of Job's friends to be written down, and so it can stand for all time as a witness to who God is, especially as revealed by God in the last chapters of the book, Job 38-42, including Job's speeches and what he was instructed to do, to repent of his sin.
God has given us his Word, so that we will be able to know his will for our lives, starting with justification, and moving forward from there. And certainly, the amazing plan of salvation laid out from Genesis to Revelation. And the missional aspect of salvation, which I rarely see expounded in ANY threads in the BDF.
I fear the people who do not believe in the inspiration of Scripture, probably don't believe God saves people, or even that people need to be saved. This attitude of Jesus being a wonderful teacher, as I pointed out to my hair stylist, is nonsense. CS Lewis summed it up by saying that if Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, he is either:
1. A liar
2. A lunatic
3. Really is God
You simply cannot have Jesus being a "good" teacher, and then having him tell stories about himself which are untrue, or the result of an unsound mind. Either he is who he says he is, or he is not a good teacher! Let alone the Saviour of the world!
" Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again (a) he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3
"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]again (a).’" John 3:7
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- John 3:3 Or from above; the Greek is purposely ambiguous and can mean both again and from above; also verse 7
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The reason I think it means "from above," is found in Jesus' answer in verse 7. Jesus has to reduce the complexity of the miracle of spiritual birth down to the simple being born "again" in verses 4-6, and Nicodemus does not understand what Jesus just said in Greek. Jesus is very clear, in verses 4-6, what being born from above means.
"Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:4-6 ESV
Jesus first attempt to converse with Nicodemus, the Pharisee about spiritual birth, was to tell him, it comes from above, or from God. But Nicodemus wrongly takes that to mean, going back into his mother's womb, in which case, being born again, would be the right option.
So, Jesus then comes to Nicodemus' level, by saying, more or less "you want 'born again' well then, so be it." And the evangelical church has picked up Nicodemus error.
And, I might add, which is where I really come in, in this discussion, the error of the KJV, repeated over and over in many modern translations like ESV, which, I have it on authority, by my Greek professor, who was on the translation committeethat they were told repeatedly that they had to stick to the traditions of the KJV, making it only a modernized and erroneous KJV. Many other versions, NIV, HCSB, NASB also use this error in translating.
It is interesting to read this passage in NET, which is translated by some of the best Greek scholars in the world. I understand the annotated version has an explanation for every word choice, but I have been unable to buy a copy for anything that is not an outrageous price. Waiting for the second edition, I guess.
Anyway, please note the difference here, in the use of [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ἄνωθεν [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]in verses 3 and 7 is translated "from above" which is the correct choice. Jesus saying it properly, Nicodemus misinterpreting, Jesus correcting him and saying again, "from above," as in the spiritual rebirth, not born in fleshly bodies, again.
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"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’" John 3:3-7 NET.
Of course, I could give you errors in almost every line of the KJV, because once you understand Greek, (and Hebrew, though I think that is translated better!) you realize the KJV translators, besides using only 7 corrupted very late Greek manuscripts, also did not know Greek as well as an advanced student like me. Which is not to brag, but merely to show that a student today, has a lot more knowledge about Greek than a scholar did 400 years ago. Seriously, any Greek scholar who has studied at all, would not use the KJV for anything, except to show what a bad version it is.
Just to throw that into the mix, for all those who keep bringing up the KJV as somehow being God's choice for the "only" real English version when most people are clueless about the multitude of translational issues.
I totally believe in the inspiration of Scripture. That includes the fact that God has allowed the words of Job's friends to be written down, and so it can stand for all time as a witness to who God is, especially as revealed by God in the last chapters of the book, Job 38-42, including Job's speeches and what he was instructed to do, to repent of his sin.
God has given us his Word, so that we will be able to know his will for our lives, starting with justification, and moving forward from there. And certainly, the amazing plan of salvation laid out from Genesis to Revelation. And the missional aspect of salvation, which I rarely see expounded in ANY threads in the BDF.
I fear the people who do not believe in the inspiration of Scripture, probably don't believe God saves people, or even that people need to be saved. This attitude of Jesus being a wonderful teacher, as I pointed out to my hair stylist, is nonsense. CS Lewis summed it up by saying that if Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, he is either:
1. A liar
2. A lunatic
3. Really is God
You simply cannot have Jesus being a "good" teacher, and then having him tell stories about himself which are untrue, or the result of an unsound mind. Either he is who he says he is, or he is not a good teacher! Let alone the Saviour of the world!
Well the fact of the matter is that the evangelical church has NOT picked up Nicodemus' "error" as you suggest, for the simple reason that there are at least four ways in which the New Birth is presented in Scripture.
1. Born again = regeneration
2. Born from above = supernatural birth
3. Born of God = making us children of God
4. Born of the Spirit = the Holy Spirit is the Agent of the New Birth
All of these are equally valid, equally valuable, and equally applicable.
Please note that in Titus 3:4-7 "regeneration" is the term that is used, which means "born again" so there was no error whatsoever.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
As to your unjustified attack on the King James Bible, that is par for the course in almost all Bible schools and seminaries today. They have all been bewitched by Westcott & Hort. Christians should research this matter independently and diligently to determine the truth, and there are many excellent books on this subject by genuine textual scholars.
1. Born again = regeneration
2. Born from above = supernatural birth
3. Born of God = making us children of God
4. Born of the Spirit = the Holy Spirit is the Agent of the New Birth
All of these are equally valid, equally valuable, and equally applicable.
Please note that in Titus 3:4-7 "regeneration" is the term that is used, which means "born again" so there was no error whatsoever.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
As to your unjustified attack on the King James Bible, that is par for the course in almost all Bible schools and seminaries today. They have all been bewitched by Westcott & Hort. Christians should research this matter independently and diligently to determine the truth, and there are many excellent books on this subject by genuine textual scholars.
Hi Angela while your addressing hidden meaning in "Born of God,"
A verse in Job helps brings out more hidden meaning.
"Man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble."
Just as born of woman involves carried emotionally by woman, including being raised by woman.
Until we are carried emotionally by The Holy Spirit, to set our affections on things above, we are in trouble in this life, looking for the comfort of woman and loosing sight of the Lord. "Through much trouble we enter the kingdom of God."
Just as salvation is ongoing renewal until maturity, applies to born of God. Carried by His Spirit. "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him. This maturity, carried by His Spirit in the fellowship of His sufferings, Jesus said to Peter after the Resurrection. "When you were young, you would clothed yourself and do what you wanted, but when you will be old, Another (the Holy Spirit) shall clothed you and carry you where you don't want to go, and this He spoke of what death Peter should die."
When you will be old: John addresses 3 groups in 1John, Little children because you are forgiven, fathers because you know the Father: (When you will be old), young men young men because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the wicked one. This last group referred as having overcome the enemy are referred in revelation as those who will rule with him. Born of God, an ongoing experience of salvation Carried by the Holy Spirit. Requires our will yielded to God., to enter in at the straight gate, following in the fellowship of the sufferings of Christ. "I have a baptism to be immersed in and how am I straightened until it be accomplished." "He became the first born of many brethren," after the Resurrection.
A verse in Job helps brings out more hidden meaning.
"Man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble."
Just as born of woman involves carried emotionally by woman, including being raised by woman.
Until we are carried emotionally by The Holy Spirit, to set our affections on things above, we are in trouble in this life, looking for the comfort of woman and loosing sight of the Lord. "Through much trouble we enter the kingdom of God."
Just as salvation is ongoing renewal until maturity, applies to born of God. Carried by His Spirit. "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him. This maturity, carried by His Spirit in the fellowship of His sufferings, Jesus said to Peter after the Resurrection. "When you were young, you would clothed yourself and do what you wanted, but when you will be old, Another (the Holy Spirit) shall clothed you and carry you where you don't want to go, and this He spoke of what death Peter should die."
When you will be old: John addresses 3 groups in 1John, Little children because you are forgiven, fathers because you know the Father: (When you will be old), young men young men because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the wicked one. This last group referred as having overcome the enemy are referred in revelation as those who will rule with him. Born of God, an ongoing experience of salvation Carried by the Holy Spirit. Requires our will yielded to God., to enter in at the straight gate, following in the fellowship of the sufferings of Christ. "I have a baptism to be immersed in and how am I straightened until it be accomplished." "He became the first born of many brethren," after the Resurrection.
Paul at the end of His life, "I have fought a good fight, I have kept the faith, I have finished my course, henceforth is laid up for me a crown of righteousness and not for me only but for all who love His appearing. Implies having overcome: will rule with Christ on the last day: thousand years. "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are fulfilled.
If the whole bible was inerrant, Paul wouldn't have felt the need to correct himself on who he baptized. Paul never claimed, nor any other NT writer, that their gospels or letters were inerrant. Would have Paul said "Consider what I say, and may the Holy Spirit give you understanding" if he thought his writings were inerrant? When Paul said "all scripture was God breathed" was he just considering the OT scriptures since the NT wasn't fully compiled yet?
Whether or not ALL the BIBLE is inerrant is not a big deal to me and it may be (I think some of is in its original form), what is important is that the bible is true. I believe all of the bible passes the truth test.
Whether or not ALL the BIBLE is inerrant is not a big deal to me and it may be (I think some of is in its original form), what is important is that the bible is true. I believe all of the bible passes the truth test.
Exactly, yet there are several on here that place God talking to them, personally, audibly, taking them on trips to heaven, plethora's of "prophets" who hear God say many things to them on the same level as Scripture. "God spoke to me personally and said..."
No. He didn't.
Some of these same hold the Word of God in disdain at the same time or hold a low view of it. The low view of revelation is witnessed in the fact that they take a flippant view of God speaking to others which happens, according to them very frequently. In fact, one of these "prophets" has claimed Scripture as suspect, while his personal prophecies are to be viewed as purely of God.
And he, of course, gets lot's of support while those who refute these things Biblically are ridiculed.
For the record I personally believe in plenary inspiration, full sufficiency and in the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
No. He didn't.
Some of these same hold the Word of God in disdain at the same time or hold a low view of it. The low view of revelation is witnessed in the fact that they take a flippant view of God speaking to others which happens, according to them very frequently. In fact, one of these "prophets" has claimed Scripture as suspect, while his personal prophecies are to be viewed as purely of God.
And he, of course, gets lot's of support while those who refute these things Biblically are ridiculed.
For the record I personally believe in plenary inspiration, full sufficiency and in the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
Bah!!!!!
I have no clue who Westcott & Hort are, but I do know that the best translation/version of the Bible is the one people will continue to read and understand....many less literate people in the world who cannot understand the old English...and for you to imply they are in error because they do not hold fast to King Jimmy shows you are really just another spiritual bigot and idolater....
What is the next progression for you spiritual bigots and idolaters...someone who does not hold fast to king Jimmy is not really saved?
What is the next progression for you spiritual bigots and idolaters...someone who does not hold fast to king Jimmy is not really saved?
There is a difference between "correction" and "clarification". Paul's primary goal was to preach the Gospel and bring souls to Christ. That did not mean that other important things such as baptism and discipling would be neglected. His companions and helpers were fully involved in the whole gamut of Christian ministry.
Well think about it this way. Can something really be true if it is full of errors of fact or doctrine (beliefs)? And if inerrancy should only be limited to the original autographs, then Christians are worse off than Muslims (and others) who staunchly believe that their holy books are free from error. The fact is that God also PRESERVED His Word in such a way that 95-99% of all documents pertaining to Scripture agree with each other (barring minor differences). This has also allowed textual scholars to determine which manuscripts are corrupt and should be discarded (and they are but a handful).
Well think about it this way. Can something really be true if it is full of errors of fact or doctrine (beliefs)? And if inerrancy should only be limited to the original autographs, then Christians are worse off than Muslims (and others) who staunchly believe that their holy books are free from error. The fact is that God also PRESERVED His Word in such a way that 95-99% of all documents pertaining to Scripture agree with each other (barring minor differences). This has also allowed textual scholars to determine which manuscripts are corrupt and should be discarded (and they are but a handful).
And the real point is NOT any Greek or Hebrew manuscripts, but rather only what 99.9% of the people here know as "The Bible". They have never seen, nor will they ever see, the originals.
So, when they read certain passages in the books that they actually hold in their hands, they really need to understand that there is a good chance that what they are reading is inaccurate when compared with the original.
Of course, the truth comes through when you read more and more of the book you hold in your hands.... BUT, way too many people seize upon a selected, lone passage, and try to swear those particular words cannot possibly be anything other than the pure, unadulterated and "inerrant" intention of the original writers.
All of us should know better.
So, when they read certain passages in the books that they actually hold in their hands, they really need to understand that there is a good chance that what they are reading is inaccurate when compared with the original.
Of course, the truth comes through when you read more and more of the book you hold in your hands.... BUT, way too many people seize upon a selected, lone passage, and try to swear those particular words cannot possibly be anything other than the pure, unadulterated and "inerrant" intention of the original writers.
All of us should know better.
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