The Rapture
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maybe in a way a little sarcastic that is if any of them could resolve the issue of the man of sin being fulfilled in ad66-70.
But then now think if they(the preterist) believe and think that the man of sin,beast,false prophet ect. have already come and gone in the past then if the devil is in the pit(cant hurt you) and the beast is in the lake of fire with the false prophet(cant hurt you) ect.ect.
Then can you goof up anything? And if you cannot even if you don't understand(cant be deceived if it's past tense) then why would anyone who thinks these things are past tense be so bothered by someone not understanding it? Why would they bother if they believed the things they say and know that they could not effect you because they were fulfilled years ago?
Does that strike you as if they believed the things they say they do or is the thing they say in opposition to the thing they say they believe?
But then now think if they(the preterist) believe and think that the man of sin,beast,false prophet ect. have already come and gone in the past then if the devil is in the pit(cant hurt you) and the beast is in the lake of fire with the false prophet(cant hurt you) ect.ect.
Then can you goof up anything? And if you cannot even if you don't understand(cant be deceived if it's past tense) then why would anyone who thinks these things are past tense be so bothered by someone not understanding it? Why would they bother if they believed the things they say and know that they could not effect you because they were fulfilled years ago?
Does that strike you as if they believed the things they say they do or is the thing they say in opposition to the thing they say they believe?
Now I'm really confused. I think I may have caught on to what a futurist is, but now you've thrown in preterist. My relationship with God does not have terms and expressions like those....I am too tired to start learning another language. I'll just drop out of this conversation. Thank you for trying to educate me. I guess I'm just not religious.
The great tribulation of Matt 24 was on the Jews. The Russians and the Germans were irrelevant. It is depicted here:
Luk 21:23
Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23
Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
As I am in no measure whatsoever a futurist, I will have to answer the question on my own behalf, being no preterist either.(I know PW, that is hard for you to wrap your head around)
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The fire here is God the Father, (God is a consuming fire); Jesus baptizef in the Holy Spirit and God (AD70). His wheat harvest refers to the end of the world after his second coming which is a future event.
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The fire here is God the Father, (God is a consuming fire); Jesus baptizef in the Holy Spirit and God (AD70). His wheat harvest refers to the end of the world after his second coming which is a future event.
The problem is that neither side of this argument are interpreting the Bible correctly by following the Jewish method of understanding scripture. Flat literalism when used wrongly leads to confusion and that is born out by the argument on this thread. To start with Christ did come in judgement in AD 70 but it was not THE last judgement. It was judgement in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem and the deaths of 1000000 plus Jews. this form of judgement happened before to Egypt to Israel using the Assyrians and to Judah using the Babylonians. In eachcase Apocalyptic language is used such as God coming in clouds, the Sun turning black, the blood red Moon and the stars falling from heaven. This is symbolism and Hyperbole used to emphasize the seriousness of the events. These can also be seen as typology of the one great day of judgement to come. Preterits are wrong in thinking that a future judgement is not going to happen and literalists are wrong in thinking that these cosmic signs are literally going to happen.
That's right Tanakh. Typology also comes into play. Consider this PlainWord. Well in fact, listen and learn, as I am explaining things not often explained, and I am leading you to greater understanding.
In 1 Corinthians 10 verse 11 Paul tells us:
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Paul here is talking about Israel in the wilderness as a typology for his generation. Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness before they died off. The same for the perverse generation; AD 26-66, / AD 33- 73 / AD 30-70. (God is so awesome he covers all the bases).
So now we can understand why Paul refers to ends (plural) of the world. The Old Covenant does indeed have two endpoints. It ended in AD 33 for the believing Jews who became the first draught of the New Covenant at Pentecost and it ended in AD73 for apostate Israel.
The Church Paul addresses fills this gap.
Now just as the wilderness Church was the typology of the first generation Church, OT Israel here in AD26-73 at the ends of the age is a typology for the final end of the World when Christ returns. So now when we go back to Matthew 3 we see the same message. Christ in his day came as salvation through grace, holy spirit, and judgement, fire. The same process will occur at the wheat harvest at the end of the age. So Christs first coming becomes a typology for his second coming.
In 1 Corinthians 10 verse 11 Paul tells us:
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Paul here is talking about Israel in the wilderness as a typology for his generation. Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness before they died off. The same for the perverse generation; AD 26-66, / AD 33- 73 / AD 30-70. (God is so awesome he covers all the bases).
So now we can understand why Paul refers to ends (plural) of the world. The Old Covenant does indeed have two endpoints. It ended in AD 33 for the believing Jews who became the first draught of the New Covenant at Pentecost and it ended in AD73 for apostate Israel.
The Church Paul addresses fills this gap.
Now just as the wilderness Church was the typology of the first generation Church, OT Israel here in AD26-73 at the ends of the age is a typology for the final end of the World when Christ returns. So now when we go back to Matthew 3 we see the same message. Christ in his day came as salvation through grace, holy spirit, and judgement, fire. The same process will occur at the wheat harvest at the end of the age. So Christs first coming becomes a typology for his second coming.
The other thing to take into account, which is part and parcel of the confusion you and Locutus have got yourselves into, is that there are two annual wheat harvests in Israel. I will do a teaching on this for you, but I would much rather someone else did, there are many on here who really understand how the harvests and feasts work. Call goes out for a study on the wheat harvests....
I'm afraid that you are already proven wrong in saying that the signs mentioned regarding the sun, moon and stars, as well as all of the other events of wrath that they are not going to literally take place. They are only designated as hyperbole based on personal, false conclusions.
That we have scripture foretelling that the coming false prophet will cause everyone to receive a mark in the hand or the forehead and the fact that the world has an electronic crediting and debiting system (buying and selling) in place, where people are now having chip implants under the skin of the hand for the purpose of making purchases, would demonstrate that God says what He means, a literal fulfillment of scripture.
Right in the very first verse of Revelation it states "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants the things that must soon take place" and you people turn it into something that can't be understood, by citing hyperbole and spiritualism.
The events of Revelation, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to take place just as they have been written, with the results being literal. It is the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord."
There are many references to the sun, moon and stars being affected during the time of God's wrath. Consequently, there is nothing in the context that would require a symbolic or hyperbolic interpretation, which are designated as such by false teachers who down-play, pacify, minimize and relocate God's wrath.
The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth leading up to Christ's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," which is still in the process of being built. Once it has been completed, the Lord will descend and will first resurrect the bodies of those who have died in him with their spirits/souls being reunited with those immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them. At that point the entire church, from beginning to end, will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air where he will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that he said he was going to prepare for us according to his promise in John 14:1-3.
After the event of the gathering of the church, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple, which is presently already to go, with all of the furniture, the Sanhedrin, the priests and their garments and their learning how to sacrifice according to the law give by God to Moses. During that entire seven years, the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation.
By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, the majority of the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled.
Regardless of the false teachings of hyperbole and spiritualism, these events of wrath are coming which will be in fulfillment of the following:
================================================
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble."
"When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD, - Zeph.1:1-3
===============================================
The gathering of the church is coming very quickly, followed by the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
This is what the word of God teaches regarding this subject. Believe it!
That we have scripture foretelling that the coming false prophet will cause everyone to receive a mark in the hand or the forehead and the fact that the world has an electronic crediting and debiting system (buying and selling) in place, where people are now having chip implants under the skin of the hand for the purpose of making purchases, would demonstrate that God says what He means, a literal fulfillment of scripture.
Right in the very first verse of Revelation it states "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants the things that must soon take place" and you people turn it into something that can't be understood, by citing hyperbole and spiritualism.
The events of Revelation, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to take place just as they have been written, with the results being literal. It is the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord."
There are many references to the sun, moon and stars being affected during the time of God's wrath. Consequently, there is nothing in the context that would require a symbolic or hyperbolic interpretation, which are designated as such by false teachers who down-play, pacify, minimize and relocate God's wrath.
The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth leading up to Christ's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," which is still in the process of being built. Once it has been completed, the Lord will descend and will first resurrect the bodies of those who have died in him with their spirits/souls being reunited with those immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them. At that point the entire church, from beginning to end, will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air where he will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that he said he was going to prepare for us according to his promise in John 14:1-3.
After the event of the gathering of the church, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple, which is presently already to go, with all of the furniture, the Sanhedrin, the priests and their garments and their learning how to sacrifice according to the law give by God to Moses. During that entire seven years, the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation.
By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, the majority of the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled.
Regardless of the false teachings of hyperbole and spiritualism, these events of wrath are coming which will be in fulfillment of the following:
================================================
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble."
"When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD, - Zeph.1:1-3
===============================================
The gathering of the church is coming very quickly, followed by the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
This is what the word of God teaches regarding this subject. Believe it!
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Some people thnk the seals,trumpets,and vials,are all part of the wrath of God,but it is not true.
The vials are the wrath of God after the 7 years period,the seals,and trumpets can be considered warnings to turn the world to God.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
After the 6th trumpet the world will still not repent of their sins,and turn to God,so God allows the man of sin to deceive all people who do not love God.
An example is WW1,and WW2.After WW1 the world does not turn to God,but the League of Nations is set up to try to obtain peace on earth,and after WW2,the United Nations,and religious organizations to try to get the religions to cooperate with each other,and this pattern will continue of people not turning to God despite their wars,and problems,so after the 6th trumpet God gives the world the man of sin to rule over those who do not love God.
I believe the seals cover a long period of time,before the 7 years period starts,the trumpets a shorter period,and the vials for the shortest period of time,and the vials is the wrath of God.
The vials are the wrath of God after the 7 years period,the seals,and trumpets can be considered warnings to turn the world to God.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
After the 6th trumpet the world will still not repent of their sins,and turn to God,so God allows the man of sin to deceive all people who do not love God.
An example is WW1,and WW2.After WW1 the world does not turn to God,but the League of Nations is set up to try to obtain peace on earth,and after WW2,the United Nations,and religious organizations to try to get the religions to cooperate with each other,and this pattern will continue of people not turning to God despite their wars,and problems,so after the 6th trumpet God gives the world the man of sin to rule over those who do not love God.
I believe the seals cover a long period of time,before the 7 years period starts,the trumpets a shorter period,and the vials for the shortest period of time,and the vials is the wrath of God.
Morning PLW...
Unfortunately the Amil and Postmil position are in error about the supposed judgment at the "end of the world":
Acts 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Paul in the above is speaking of the raising "both of righteous and unrighteous" for judgment. Paul was expecting it in the time frame that he wrote. So this falsifies both Amil, Postmil and other futurist "theologies".
Nearly all translations hide the Greek sense of the impending rising of dead "both of righteous and unrighteous" for judgment when Paul spoke this.
See the red boxes in the image below:
Unfortunately the Amil and Postmil position are in error about the supposed judgment at the "end of the world":
Acts 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Paul in the above is speaking of the raising "both of righteous and unrighteous" for judgment. Paul was expecting it in the time frame that he wrote. So this falsifies both Amil, Postmil and other futurist "theologies".
Nearly all translations hide the Greek sense of the impending rising of dead "both of righteous and unrighteous" for judgment when Paul spoke this.
See the red boxes in the image below: