WHAT DO YOU SEE???

[joaniemarie]

Just a personal observation about this. Believers have not always had the Scriptures and many people in past history and societies didn't know how to read. The question could be asked and has been why did God allow it to take sooooo long for His Word to be put in a Book so everyone could read it?

Why did God allow the weaknesses of man and even the evilness of man and man's false ideas of God in their man made religious systems based on lies and greed, pride and selfishness and murder to cause such a time span until the completion of the Bible as we know it today?

And yet I can also see how God used preachers and teachers He gifted who took what they read and although they didn't have ALL of the Bible like we do along with ALL the helps and Greek and Latin and Hebrew texts, these men and woman of God were used in their limited abilities anyway. God used many who were also educated and they had a working knowledge of the love of God in Christ so they went out to tell the truth of the Gospel. They were lead to build schools where the Bible was taught so men and woman could go out and teach and preach.

What an amazing process how God's Word got out there into the world yet God didn't by pass the process. There are those who are further along than others yet God is not condemning any of us believers because in Christ there is no condemnation. He uses each one where we are. There is certainly a mixed bag of us Christians out there... and in here.

 

[joaniemarie]

I can get with that!
However, if you consider Job, He allowed satan (gave His permission) to bring some pretty hard things to Job. But it was to BLESS Job. One of those things was a sickness.
And also consider the verse: satan has asked permission to sift you like wheat. After you have returned...
1. Satan has to ask permission and, in Job, each time God is very detailed about exactly what he may do and what he may not.
2. It will end in our great good and blessing.

Very much enjoy discussing these issues of the Bible with you too Sis! Job is yet another book I've rediscovered looking into the way it was first taught to me. Because the main and most important teachings I learned recently is the love of God in Christ and how the Father is represented in the Son. Jesus said when we want to see the Father., we need to look at Him. So when I interpret anything in the Bible it is through the working knowledge of God's love IN Christ I've been given to see by the Holy Spirit. Those "rivers of living water" in John 7:38-39

[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, [SUP][a][/SUP]from within him shall flow rivers of living water. [SUP]39 [/SUP]But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: [SUP][b][/SUP]for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The "zapping" I've gotten as a Christian all these years was not from the hand of God zapping me. I made my own choices in life that caused my own partial demise. Like Job., I had many of my own ideas about who God is and how He deals with us His sons and daughters. We had earthly fathers who dealt with us in a certain way but that is not the way our heavenly Father deals with us.

Chastisement is not beating the sheep or breaking the sheep's legs in order that Jesus has to carry us as I was first taught. Sure, it sounded good in a sort of holy religious scary kind of way at the time. But it didn't work out with how the love of God IN Christ is shown as I learned about His grace and love.

I heard a sermon at the time I was thinking hard on this whole idea of God judging me and chastising me. How could I forgive myself if God was judging me and holding me to task for my blindness and stupidity? I was not learning to approach God that way at all through my entire Christian life. All that kind of preaching and teaching taught me was to avoided Him (skillfully) for fear of disappointing Him even more and also adding more to my sin and shame already that was already too hard to carry (as a Christian)

I was also taught to endure this based on the teachings of our church about how God teaches us to conform to the image of Christ. How He breaks us and destroys us.

I was listening to a teaching on Psalm 23 that went totally against what I was taught about the relationship to the Good Shepherd and His sheep.

The Lord is my Shepherd., He breaketh my legs. That is what I was taught and it is NOT what is said. There is no "wood shed" in there either. He doesn't taketh me to the woodshed and spanketh my bottom. Those concepts were taught to me and at the time made sense because it was true., i experienced horrible consequences along with guilt and shame for sin. But today that is not what I see in Christ. Today I see working grace and undeserved love and favor.

What you have posted about Job is the way I was taught too and it made sense at the time.. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away... blessed be the name of the Lord. Well, that sounds right but that was Job's words in the Bible and Job had it wrong. God gave but He didn't take away. God is the Giver.

The devil kills, steals and destroys. God doesn't use satan to teach us lessons. God uses the Holy Spirit to teach., guide and comfort. He uses His Word. He certainly doesn't need the devil. He sent Jesus to defeat the devil and He did. There is more to it than I can type out here but the place I begin is the Cross and seeing Jesus. What kind of love did Jesus show while He was here? And what does Jesus going to the cross mean and what did Jesus do when He went to the cross, died and rose again? What was the finished work about and why is it I cannot add to it any work of my own.

I'll repost from a thread where we were discussing the book of Job.

 

[joaniemarie]

Re: THE POWER OF THE TONGUE PROVERBS 18:21

Here is a view about Job and the power of the tongue that "creates" things. I like to use this website from time to time as it has articles based on the finished work of Christ and in light of the New Covenant and how that is different than in the Old Testament way of things.

I also like the fact that we can ask questions at the bottom of the article and I have learned from others there as well. This may "conflict" with some things we were taught in our church teachings in the past - depending on which denomination we were under.

People are free to have a different view too without personal attacks and biting and devouring each other as Paul says in Gal. 5:15


Ten Little Known Facts about Job

Many people consider Job a great man and a champion of the faith. Job, you will recall, lost everything (his family, wealth and health), then sat on a dunghill scratching himself with a broken plate while having a theology debate with seminarians. As a result of this rich, life-affirming experience, many people now believe the following lies:

• God gives and takes away good things like children, health, jobs

• God uses sickness to punish or discipline me

• God puts me through hard times to teach me humility

• God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

I want to offer a different perspective. The Book of Job is not about a great man but a flawed man. The Job we read about was not the man of God many think he was, but a superstitious and fearful man who said some stupendously dumb things. His story is not about the triumph of the human spirit, but the awesome grace God gives to broken humanity.

“But Job was a righteous man.” Actually, he was a self-righteous man and basically an unbeliever, as we shall see. I’m not knocking Job. My purpose is to show you how grace changes broken people like you, me, and Job. By the time we get to the end of this short series, you’re going to be amazed at some of the good things God says about this imperfect man.

But to finish well we must begin with a proper understanding of Job’s state apart from God. So here are ten little known facts about Job:


1. Job was superstitious

Like many religious people, Job believed in karma. He subscribed to the faithless wisdom of sowing and reaping. If his kids threw a wild party, Job would bring a sacrifice. “They might’ve sinned; I’d better do something about it.” Debits and credits. “This was Job’s regular custom” (Job 1:5).


2. Job was sin-conscious

Not his sins, of course, because he didn’t have any. (Cough!) He was a good man who kept the ledger clean. But Job viewed sin like kryptonite (see Job 31:11-12). He was terrified of it and thought about it constantly (see Job 31).


3. Job was full of fear

Job was insecure and bound with fear. He would’ve been the perfect customer for an insurance salesman because he feared calamities and disasters that would wipe him out (Job 31:23). When that happened he said, “What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me” (Job 3:25).

4. Job was full of self-pity

Read Job’s words and you get a strong sense of “Woe is me.” Although his woes were legitimate, he was utterly focused on his own sorry state. He was self-indulgent to the point of whining. “I will give free rein to my complaint” (Job 10:1). And complain he did.


5. Job allowed bitterness to take root

Bitterness is a grace-killer, but Job allowed that evil weed to flourish in the garden of his heart. “I will complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11).


6. Job was self-righteous

Job’s confidence was not in the Lord but his own good behavior. “How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin” (Job 13:23). Like an indignant Pharisee Job had an inflated sense of his moral performance. “Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6).

Job’s self-trust reinforced his victim mentality. “Can anyone bring charges against me?” (Job 13:19). Eventually his self-righteousness became so odorous that it even silenced the self-righteous men who came to counsel him. “These three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1).


7. Job thought God didn’t care

“Even if I summoned him and he responded, I do not believe he would give me a hearing” (Job 9:16). Job’s self-pitying distorted his perception of God’s character. Like many people going through hard times, Job thought God was opposed to him (Job 13:24).


8. Job blamed God for his troubles

It is often taught that Job never blamed God (which is a misreading of Job 1:22; more on this later). However, Job did not hesitate to point the finger at “the Almighty, who has made my life bitter” (Job 27:2). A storm killed his kids and tribal raiders stole his herds, yet Job attributed his loss to a God who gives and takes away (Job 1:21). Again and again Job said God was the cause of his trouble (see Job 2:10, 6:4).

Given his good behavior, Job couldn’t make sense of this divine unfairness. “Don’t you have better things to do than pick on me?” (Job 7:20, MSG). God moves in mysterious ways, thought Job. At any time he might “crush me with a storm and multiply my wounds for no reason” (Job 9:17).


9. Job thought God was trying to kill him

“Although I am blameless… He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:21-22). Job actually thought that God was trying to kill him. “You turn on me ruthlessly; with the might of your hand you attack me… I know you will bring me down to death” (Job 30:21,23).


10. Consequently, Job despaired of life and wished he was dead

Job loathed his life (see Job 7:16). “Who can see any hope for me?” (Job 17:15). This so-called hero of the faith had a death wish. “I prefer strangling and death, rather than this body of mine” (Job 7:15). Job had no faith in a God who heals and restores, but said, “the only home I hope for is the grave” (Job 17:13).

Many people honor Job as a giant of the faith who was renowned for his great patience. However, Job is not listed in Hebrews 11 among the other heroes of the faith and the only righteousness he exhibited was the stinky, self-made kind.

But stick around because we’re going to see that God’s grace is for imperfect people like Job. “He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill” (Psa 113:7).

As we will see, Job’s life had a second act. Before he met the Lord Job was a whiner who falsely blamed God for his troubles; but afterwards he become a brand new man, a man that God saw as righteous and upright. It is an amazing story and you won’t want to miss it!

Unquote:

Here is the web address if anyone wishes to look at the questions.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/10/...cts-about-job/



(reposted this from another thread., it is Bruce's Gracee777) ​

 

[joaniemarie]

All of us are "Job-like" until we get our minds renewed to the truths of the New Covenant.

Here is another one - perhaps you may enjoy this one too.

Is Satan God’s Sheepdog?

The Book of Job is one of the most amazing stories in the Bible, but we read it wrong two ways. First, we elevate Job into some kind of faith hero. Second, we think the devil is a sheepdog sent by the Lord to do his dirty work. This crazy notion is based on the following passage:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” “Does Job fear God for nothing?”

Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:8-12)

The traditional interpretation is that the Lord set Job up for disaster by dangling him in front of the devil like a marshal might dangle a convict’s shirt in front of a bloodhound.

“You smell Job, boy? You smell his good works and how much he hates evil?”

“Grrrr. Grrrr.”

“Get him, boy! Go! Rip his life apart!”

What a terrible portrayal of our heavenly Father!

According to the traditional view there is no difference between God and Satan. The devil did the deed, but God was a collaborator. God permitted it. He “allowed” it to happen.

Thankfully, this is one of those times where something is lost in translation. Let’s read those verses again in a word-for-word translation such as Green’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV):

And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil? (Job 1:8, LITV)

In other words, “Satan, why are you gunning for Job? Is it because he’s a good guy? Is it because he won’t fall for your evil schemes?”

Do you see? God isn’t setting Job up at all. He’s letting Satan know that he’s onto him. “I’m watching you, Satan.” The Lord is not unaware of the devil’s schemes.

The fact is, Satan was gunning for Job. Not only did Satan want to hurt Job, he wanted the Lord to do it! Look at what Satan says:

Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face. (Job 1:11)

The audacity of this schemer! How brazen! First the accuser tries to manipulate God: “Job only fears you because you’ve put a hedge about him and blessed him” (verses 9-10). Then he dares the Lord to strike this good man Job! Of course, the Lord isn’t about to fall for Satan’s tricks, yet verse 12 seems to suggest he does.

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power…” (Job 1:12)

At first glance it seems that God has just been conned by the devil into giving him permission to go after Job. Really? And we fall for that? Or worse, we think the Lord would fall for it?! Let’s read that verse in a literal translation:

And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah. (Job 1:12, LITV)

The Lord is not giving Satan permission; he’s stating a fact. Job was already under Satan’s thumb. Why does the Lord say that? Because of this:

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

As Tom Tompkins explains in his book, Understanding the Book of Job, God gave control of the earth to man…

The highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to mankind. (Psa 115:16)
…but in the Garden of Eden man handed control to Satan. So when the Lord says “all that is his is in your hand!” he is stating a painful fact that will ultimately cost Jesus his life.

To sum up, here are four lies that we get from misreading Job 1:


Lie #1: Satan needs God’s permission to attack us

Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission. In the Garden of Eden we opened the door to sin and have been reaping the consequences ever since.

The good news is it doesn’t have to be this way. By the grace of God the devil flees when we resist him (James 4:7). Don’t be like Job and let the thief plunder your house. Be like David who encouraged himself in the Lord and fought back (1 Sam 30:6).


Lie #2: God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

Woof! What nonsense. What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Cor 6:14)?


Lie #3: God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character

Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do. Although Job thought God was responsible for his loss, God sent Elihu to set him straight. Elihu is a picture of Jesus who went around “healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” (Acts 10:38). Jesus doesn’t give sickness; he takes it from us.


Lie #4: God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us

God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.

First Adam lost control of the planet, but last Adam took back what the devil stole. In Christ you are destined to reign like a king (Rom 5:17).

But you won’t reign if you heed the lies above and follow Job instead of Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.

Unquote:

Here is the link for the article if you want to read the questions at the bottom.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/10/...gods-sheepdog/

 

[joaniemarie]

I very much love and appreciate other believers who have dedicated their lives to teaching and preaching. I also know that they are gifts to the church locally and world wide. And also realize not everyone will agree with some of them the way I do. Many will and have dismissed this interpretation of Job but it for sure fits into what the Holy Spirit has been showing me about the grace of God in Christ. It adds to., it does not tear down what I've been learning about Jesus. It magnifies the grace of God in Christ and the love of God for the saints. The grace of God is teaching me just like Titus 2:11-12 says and it affirms to me that it is coming from the Holy Spirit as I'm growing more familiar with Him in my life.

There is enough to read and find out if we agree or disagree but that is for each one of us to do. Although this interpretation is not in agreement with many., it is in agreement with many others. But that is not the criteria for me. Why it speaks to me is because first the Holy Spirit prepared me and I had begun learning of God's love and grace IN Christ. It was adding to the things I had already been learning about Jesus and His gift of rightousness. And I "repented" Changed my mind... about who I believed God was before seeing the grace and truth that Jesus brought., and how He deals with me in that truth.

Yes, God is holy and righteous but He is my Father. I don't always call Him God when I pray (although He is) I call Him Father. My relationship is one of daughter now because of Jesus. He is God but He is my Father God. It was explained to me like this...

A preacher and teacher is well known in a college community and even on a world wide scale. He has a family as well as a congregation and a world wide audience. He also has friends and people who know him. He is known to some as the "Reverend" or the lead Pastor or professor of Ecclesiastical or Evangelical and expert on apologetic studies at so and so College in so and so state of so and so country.

But when his wife and family come to see him in his office., they just walk right through the receptionist in his large office into his personal office and sit on his lap. The other people who know him can't do that because although he is still a Reverend or lead pastor or professor or evangelical speaker or expert apologetic teacher he is still the father and husband of those he is in relationship with. And they call Him Dad or Dear.

 

[joaniemarie]

And because He is my Father and we are told to "behold what manner of love the Father has given unto us" I'm seeing how grace plays a huge part in understanding how God deals with us IN Christ. Jesus paid for that way. So we can call God our Father. Our relationship with Him is based on Jesus gift of righteousness given to us. We are righteous in Christ. We have been given great and precious promises that are ours by grace through faith.

It doesn't all get downloaded on us at once for us to understand. The 'process' of learning must move forward. Also., since we are learning to trust Him to take care of us., we can also trust Him to lead us into all truth. Not to fear learning if it goes against traditional views and teachings of the Book of Job for instance.

In my own learning how to walk the Christian life after beginning to face many of the fears that once caged me in., this trusting the Holy Spirit to teach and guide was not so difficult to start doing. We are given those rivers of living water flowing inside our innermost being (our spirit). It is true just the way Jesus said in John. And these things are written so we can KNOW. We can have a confidence and even fearlessly step forward in the face of things that once used to terrify us.

 

[stonesoffire]

Hi Stone,

Sorry,

I got your two posts together and thought you were talking about the book. I apologize and hope you'll forgive my mistake.

So okay, after your reading all that about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, can it be forgiven?

Forgiven...forgotten.

I think we really need to understand what exactly transpired that would cause Jesus to say this. What kind of people was Jesus addressing. The reason I say this is a personal one. My mother told me that tongues was of the devil when I first received the baptism. Years later she and my father came to the knowledge of the truth, but she was haunted by what she had spoken.

That kind of thing happens all the time and is a satanic lie to keep people captured in darkness about the great love God has for all the world. I hope she was able to see from our discussion that she only spoke out of what she was taught, but she never brought it up again, and I was busy with my own life to pursue. Something I regret, but it's life.

Another thing to consider Rose, is that I was posting about believers not unbelievers. A believer is not going to commit this sin.

This would be IMO, someone so engrossed in evil they would never be humbled before the Lord Himself. Something I would never wish for anyone in light of their final destination.

And also, by the way....the book mentioned in my first post is written to Christians by a minister who has a very successful healing gift. If there is a reason why my healing hasn't yet fully manifested, I want to know what it is.

My belief is (not in the book) this is the purging by blood that Peter speaks about. We are covered and we are purged by confession. As I said...my opinion. And anyone can do a topic study to see purging in the NT. KJV.

 

[graceNpeace]

Yeah yeah. And yours is always right. Mine works yours does not.

1. grace
   1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
   1. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3. what is due to grace
   1. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
   2. the token or proof of grace, benefit
      1. a gift of grace
      2. benefit, bounty
4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
   
   Is there anything about you that is Christian? Really? You judge, criticize, snipe, insult, and belittle people all the time. Oh Sorry. You do it in love......Ain't that sweet? You call yourself a nice Christian but you're not. I have never said I was nice. For good reason. I'm not, but I am honest. Unlike you.

]
Denadii

I try to respond to points of fact...
You on the other hand take violent exception to everyone who disagrees with you and resort to ad hominem attacks at every opportunity.
The quoted post is no exception!

 

[stonesoffire]

I just realized something though. Here we are. Christians. Arguing the Gospel, debating the Gospel. But what are we supposed to be doing? Not debating the Gospel. We're supposed to be proclaiming the Gospel. Who here is doing that?

I came here to this forum and almost immediately I got sucked into this mire of disobedience too, like most of the people here. People....Please accept my apology for debating the Word. Its wrong of us and it's wrong of me to debate Gods Word. I'm sorry for that.

Just thought it was so good to remember.

 

[garee]

Re: THE POWER OF THE TONGUE PROVERBS 18:21

Here is a view about Job and the power of the tongue that "creates" things. I like to use this website from time to time as it has articles based on the finished work of Christ and in light of the New Covenant and how that is different than in the Old Testament way of things.

I also like the fact that we can ask questions at the bottom of the article and I have learned from others there as well. This may "conflict" with some things we were taught in our church teachings in the past - depending on which denomination we were under.

People are free to have a different view too without personal attacks and biting and devouring each other as Paul says in Gal. 5:15


Ten Little Known Facts about Job

Many people consider Job a great man and a champion of the faith. Job, you will recall, lost everything (his family, wealth and health), then sat on a dunghill scratching himself with a broken plate while having a theology debate with seminarians. As a result of this rich, life-affirming experience, many people now believe the following lies:

• God gives and takes away good things like children, health, jobs

• God uses sickness to punish or discipline me

• God puts me through hard times to teach me humility

• God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

I want to offer a different perspective. The Book of Job is not about a great man but a flawed man. The Job we read about was not the man of God many think he was, but a superstitious and fearful man who said some stupendously dumb things. His story is not about the triumph of the human spirit, but the awesome grace God gives to broken humanity.

“But Job was a righteous man.” Actually, he was a self-righteous man and basically an unbeliever, as we shall see. I’m not knocking Job. My purpose is to show you how grace changes broken people like you, me, and Job. By the time we get to the end of this short series, you’re going to be amazed at some of the good things God says about this imperfect man.

But to finish well we must begin with a proper understanding of Job’s state apart from God. So here are ten little known facts about Job:


1. Job was superstitious

Like many religious people, Job believed in karma. He subscribed to the faithless wisdom of sowing and reaping. If his kids threw a wild party, Job would bring a sacrifice. “They might’ve sinned; I’d better do something about it.” Debits and credits. “This was Job’s regular custom” (Job 1:5).


2. Job was sin-conscious

Not his sins, of course, because he didn’t have any. (Cough!) He was a good man who kept the ledger clean. But Job viewed sin like kryptonite (see Job 31:11-12). He was terrified of it and thought about it constantly (see Job 31).


3. Job was full of fear

Job was insecure and bound with fear. He would’ve been the perfect customer for an insurance salesman because he feared calamities and disasters that would wipe him out (Job 31:23). When that happened he said, “What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me” (Job 3:25).

4. Job was full of self-pity

Read Job’s words and you get a strong sense of “Woe is me.” Although his woes were legitimate, he was utterly focused on his own sorry state. He was self-indulgent to the point of whining. “I will give free rein to my complaint” (Job 10:1). And complain he did.


5. Job allowed bitterness to take root

Bitterness is a grace-killer, but Job allowed that evil weed to flourish in the garden of his heart. “I will complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11).


6. Job was self-righteous

Job’s confidence was not in the Lord but his own good behavior. “How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin” (Job 13:23). Like an indignant Pharisee Job had an inflated sense of his moral performance. “Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6).

Job’s self-trust reinforced his victim mentality. “Can anyone bring charges against me?” (Job 13:19). Eventually his self-righteousness became so odorous that it even silenced the self-righteous men who came to counsel him. “These three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1).


7. Job thought God didn’t care

“Even if I summoned him and he responded, I do not believe he would give me a hearing” (Job 9:16). Job’s self-pitying distorted his perception of God’s character. Like many people going through hard times, Job thought God was opposed to him (Job 13:24).


8. Job blamed God for his troubles

It is often taught that Job never blamed God (which is a misreading of Job 1:22; more on this later). However, Job did not hesitate to point the finger at “the Almighty, who has made my life bitter” (Job 27:2). A storm killed his kids and tribal raiders stole his herds, yet Job attributed his loss to a God who gives and takes away (Job 1:21). Again and again Job said God was the cause of his trouble (see Job 2:10, 6:4).

Given his good behavior, Job couldn’t make sense of this divine unfairness. “Don’t you have better things to do than pick on me?” (Job 7:20, MSG). God moves in mysterious ways, thought Job. At any time he might “crush me with a storm and multiply my wounds for no reason” (Job 9:17).


9. Job thought God was trying to kill him

“Although I am blameless… He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:21-22). Job actually thought that God was trying to kill him. “You turn on me ruthlessly; with the might of your hand you attack me… I know you will bring me down to death” (Job 30:21,23).


10. Consequently, Job despaired of life and wished he was dead

Job loathed his life (see Job 7:16). “Who can see any hope for me?” (Job 17:15). This so-called hero of the faith had a death wish. “I prefer strangling and death, rather than this body of mine” (Job 7:15). Job had no faith in a God who heals and restores, but said, “the only home I hope for is the grave” (Job 17:13).

Many people honor Job as a giant of the faith who was renowned for his great patience. However, Job is not listed in Hebrews 11 among the other heroes of the faith and the only righteousness he exhibited was the stinky, self-made kind.

But stick around because we’re going to see that God’s grace is for imperfect people like Job. “He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill” (Psa 113:7).

As we will see, Job’s life had a second act. Before he met the Lord Job was a whiner who falsely blamed God for his troubles; but afterwards he become a brand new man, a man that God saw as righteous and upright. It is an amazing story and you won’t want to miss it!

Unquote:

Here is the web address if anyone wishes to look at the questions.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/10/...cts-about-job/



(reposted this from another thread., it is Bruce's Gracee777) ​

That's not the Job of the scriptures. He knew who it was that could make our hearts soft.

 

[garee]

I see it more of what God sees ????Not what we see. When it comes to faith (spiritual matters) we like Pinocchio with a hard wodden heart cannot see past the tip of our nose .

Christ came that we might see past our toes.

well...there really isn't a way you can call the devotional blasphemy. I mean, just because he didn't also bring in the verse in tension to, it doesn't mean he hasn't taught the people he pastors this elsewhere. Bruce is pretty trustworthy and he attests that he definitely has heard Joseph teach on the other verse too.

The principle of ...."name it claim it" points towards blasphemy..

Yes I agree, about the fig tree, that is why I found it so interesting that he soon pointed faith moving a big mountain into the sea, how hard might it have been for those (the Jews and the disciples) under the temple system, which was like a mountain in their lives to know that by faith it could be moved into the sea.

Yes the temple system was a shadow... reformed at the time of reformation. If we would attribute that work of faith to our own selves it can move nothing. It His faith as a labor of His love that protects us that can move a Mountain and cast it into the sea .Not of our own selves.

We can build bigger barns but to eat the fruit… our next breath depends on the mercy of God..

The fig tree is used in two ways. The leaves represent the healing of the nations to include the Jewish nation but never in respect that seen. The fruit of the fig tree would be those who do the will of God that works in the believer to both will and perform His good pleasure

The temple or mountains represents the kingdoms of this world or denominations that are under the loving laws of God written in the Bible called the book of the law(no theories) .

Where moving them into the sea, would be more like in reference to preparation for the new heavens and earth where there is no Sea

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms (sects) of this world are become the kingdoms (sects)of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

God warned the Jews over and over that they would be like all the other kingdoms of the world.

Deu 28:25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

The Almond tree as symbol of rebellion provides another way to look at look at the fruit of what I call the fruit of “observing or watching to see” if what the Holy Spirit gives us to taste is of God.

It’s not when we see the blood as to the outcome but when he sees it.He is the watcher to make sure things that are seen as he defines them . Jeremiah gives us some interesting insight.


Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. Jer 1:6

First reactions to those who walk after the flesh( every man) resist the work of the Spirit.

Jer 1:7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

Like Moses telling God he has the wrong person . the loving commandment .Say not I am a child.


That work of Christ that worked in jeremiah to both will and do the good pleasure of God provided Jeremiah the faith of Christ to do His will. He did not tell him he would deliver him from the trial but as Emmanuel he will be with him as he was in the flame with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego rescuing them from the judgment of God

Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. Jer 1:8

Just as he Holy Spirit put his words in the mouth of Balaam’s Ass in order to warn that false prophet.He is watching to be sure he performs it.

Jer 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

There again using kingdoms of this world to represent they will all beomes the kingdoms of God in the world to come


Jer 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.

There using the rod of a almond tree to represent our rebellious nature that resist moving to do the will of another as with Jeremiah and Moses .


Jer 1:12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

There the word of God confirming that God was watching to make sure he hears the work of faith working in Jerimiah as he moved Him to perform it.

Jer 1:13 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying, What seest thou? And I said, I see a seething pot; and the face thereof is toward the north.
Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the LORD; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah. Jer 1:14-15

Again in reference to all kingdoms as denominations of the world that will become the kingdoms of God in the new heavens and earth

And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands. Thou therefore gird up thy loins, and arise, and speak unto them all that I command thee: be not dismayed at their faces, lest I confound thee before them. For, behold, I have made thee this day a defenced city, and an iron pillar, and brasen walls against the whole land, against the kings of Judah, against the princes thereof, against the priests thereof, and against the people of the land.Jer 1:16

There he is referring to Jeremiah a prophet as if he was the city of refuge in respect to the heavenly city where believers do have their citizenship. Rescuing that city as the bride of Christ again;( for I am with thee, saith the LORD, to deliver thee.) And not to condemm those he brought with a price


Jer 1:19 And they shall fight against thee; but they shall not prevail against thee; for I am with thee, saith the LORD, to deliver thee.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Very much enjoy discussing these issues of the Bible with you too Sis! Job is yet another book I've rediscovered looking into the way it was first taught to me. Because the main and most important teachings I learned recently is the love of God in Christ and how the Father is represented in the Son. Jesus said when we want to see the Father., we need to look at Him. So when I interpret anything in the Bible it is through the working knowledge of God's love IN Christ I've been given to see by the Holy Spirit. Those "rivers of living water" in John 7:38-39

[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, [SUP][a][/SUP]from within him shall flow rivers of living water. [SUP]39 [/SUP]But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: [SUP][b][/SUP]for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The "zapping" I've gotten as a Christian all these years was not from the hand of God zapping me. I made my own choices in life that caused my own partial demise. Like Job., I had many of my own ideas about who God is and how He deals with us His sons and daughters. We had earthly fathers who dealt with us in a certain way but that is not the way our heavenly Father deals with us.

Chastisement is not beating the sheep or breaking the sheep's legs in order that Jesus has to carry us as I was first taught. Sure, it sounded good in a sort of holy religious scary kind of way at the time. But it didn't work out with how the love of God IN Christ is shown as I learned about His grace and love.

I heard a sermon at the time I was thinking hard on this whole idea of God judging me and chastising me. How could I forgive myself if God was judging me and holding me to task for my blindness and stupidity? I was not learning to approach God that way at all through my entire Christian life. All that kind of preaching and teaching taught me was to avoided Him (skillfully) for fear of disappointing Him even more and also adding more to my sin and shame already that was already too hard to carry (as a Christian)

I was also taught to endure this based on the teachings of our church about how God teaches us to conform to the image of Christ. How He breaks us and destroys us.

I was listening to a teaching on Psalm 23 that went totally against what I was taught about the relationship to the Good Shepherd and His sheep.

The Lord is my Shepherd., He breaketh my legs. That is what I was taught and it is NOT what is said. There is no "wood shed" in there either. He doesn't taketh me to the woodshed and spanketh my bottom. Those concepts were taught to me and at the time made sense because it was true., i experienced horrible consequences along with guilt and shame for sin. But today that is not what I see in Christ. Today I see working grace and undeserved love and favor.

What you have posted about Job is the way I was taught too and it made sense at the time.. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away... blessed be the name of the Lord. Well, that sounds right but that was Job's words in the Bible and Job had it wrong. God gave but He didn't take away. God is the Giver.

The devil kills, steals and destroys. God doesn't use satan to teach us lessons. God uses the Holy Spirit to teach., guide and comfort. He uses His Word. He certainly doesn't need the devil. He sent Jesus to defeat the devil and He did. There is more to it than I can type out here but the place I begin is the Cross and seeing Jesus. What kind of love did Jesus show while He was here? And what does Jesus going to the cross mean and what did Jesus do when He went to the cross, died and rose again? What was the finished work about and why is it I cannot add to it any work of my own.

I'll repost from a thread where we were discussing the book of Job.

I wasn't taught about Job by my church as you were because I've never had or found a church. So it can't be said that men taught me or showed me in Job. It could be fairly said(though I do not think so) that I've leaned on my own understanding, but it could not be said that men taught me.

We have a precedent that is in the OT AND the NT, that satan is sometimes allowed to sift us like wheat. We have Job and we have Peter. Sifting is for the purpose of removing something. It is not for the purpose of harming the wheat. It is for the purpose of having only the wheat remain, without specks or little pebbles that aren't wheat. A little tiny stone left in wheat can make someone shatter a tooth when they eat a piece of bread baked with it. It can also cause the bread to be inedible if there is no sifting and too much dross (crap) is left in with the wheat.

He guides my every step. He would not allow satan to sift me unless it was for my most blessed good. However, it took some growing in trust for me to truly believe that He was ALWAYS only going to give me or allow for me what would be the very best for me.

Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered. The same happens with me. The obedience and steadfastness of faith is learned through the things He gives us or allows for us. All that I have faced that was distasteful to me, has made my faith in Him more steadfast, as James says. But I didn't start out rejoicing when I met with trials of my faith. I learned to rejoice for the good I saw many times come to me as a result of the trials. But I many times told God that He had come to seem so cruel to me and that He had hedged me in and never seemed to let me catch my breath.

He gives us what we are ready to bear. And He can be trusted!

Part of growing in faith in Him is to learn that He will never give us a stone when we ask for bread. So part of that growing in trust is to not say that something is very hard like a stone to me and so He has given me a stone. That's not going by faith that says our Father, if we ask for bread, sometimes gives us a stone. It's going by faith to say, my Father will not give me a stone to eat when I have asked for bread - this will end in His glory and in my greatest good.

The older and more mature a child becomes, the more difficulties he is faced with. But he has also grown and is more capable of bearing those difficulties.

I'm not talking about what any man or church has taught me. I'm talking about what I have seen and lived. He never allows a trial for any reason other than to grow my trust in Him and to make it more and more pure. Faith is like a muscle. It is with use and with opposition to the muscle that the muscle grows. If the muscle never comes to an opposition to its movement, it will never grow and prove strong enough to push through the opposition or the weight bearing on it. (The trial).

Good morning by the way! Or...this is not morning or afternoon to you, is it? You were drinking your morning coffee at midnight. I've worked nights so I know what you mean about that.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

JM, I was so eager to come in and hear you and I see that you have posted a lot! I won't have time to read all that you posted of Job right now but I look forward to coming back later to read it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Just a personal observation about this. Believers have not always had the Scriptures and many people in past history and societies didn't know how to read. The question could be asked and has been why did God allow it to take sooooo long for His Word to be put in a Book so everyone could read it?

Why did God allow the weaknesses of man and even the evilness of man and man's false ideas of God in their man made religious systems based on lies and greed, pride and selfishness and murder to cause such a time span until the completion of the Bible as we know it today?

And yet I can also see how God used preachers and teachers He gifted who took what they read and although they didn't have ALL of the Bible like we do along with ALL the helps and Greek and Latin and Hebrew texts, these men and woman of God were used in their limited abilities anyway. God used many who were also educated and they had a working knowledge of the love of God in Christ so they went out to tell the truth of the Gospel. They were lead to build schools where the Bible was taught so men and woman could go out and teach and preach.

What an amazing process how God's Word got out there into the world yet God didn't by pass the process. There are those who are further along than others yet God is not condemning any of us believers because in Christ there is no condemnation. He uses each one where we are. There is certainly a mixed bag of us Christians out there... and in here.

Makes for interesting conversation?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

All of us are "Job-like" until we get our minds renewed to the truths of the New Covenant.

Here is another one - perhaps you may enjoy this one too.

Is Satan God’s Sheepdog?

The Book of Job is one of the most amazing stories in the Bible, but we read it wrong two ways. First, we elevate Job into some kind of faith hero. Second, we think the devil is a sheepdog sent by the Lord to do his dirty work. This crazy notion is based on the following passage:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” “Does Job fear God for nothing?”

Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:8-12)

The traditional interpretation is that the Lord set Job up for disaster by dangling him in front of the devil like a marshal might dangle a convict’s shirt in front of a bloodhound.

“You smell Job, boy? You smell his good works and how much he hates evil?”

“Grrrr. Grrrr.”

“Get him, boy! Go! Rip his life apart!”

What a terrible portrayal of our heavenly Father!

According to the traditional view there is no difference between God and Satan. The devil did the deed, but God was a collaborator. God permitted it. He “allowed” it to happen.

Thankfully, this is one of those times where something is lost in translation. Let’s read those verses again in a word-for-word translation such as Green’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV):

And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil? (Job 1:8, LITV)

In other words, “Satan, why are you gunning for Job? Is it because he’s a good guy? Is it because he won’t fall for your evil schemes?”

Do you see? God isn’t setting Job up at all. He’s letting Satan know that he’s onto him. “I’m watching you, Satan.” The Lord is not unaware of the devil’s schemes.

The fact is, Satan was gunning for Job. Not only did Satan want to hurt Job, he wanted the Lord to do it! Look at what Satan says:

Stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face. (Job 1:11)

The audacity of this schemer! How brazen! First the accuser tries to manipulate God: “Job only fears you because you’ve put a hedge about him and blessed him” (verses 9-10). Then he dares the Lord to strike this good man Job! Of course, the Lord isn’t about to fall for Satan’s tricks, yet verse 12 seems to suggest he does.

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power…” (Job 1:12)

At first glance it seems that God has just been conned by the devil into giving him permission to go after Job. Really? And we fall for that? Or worse, we think the Lord would fall for it?! Let’s read that verse in a literal translation:

And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah. (Job 1:12, LITV)

The Lord is not giving Satan permission; he’s stating a fact. Job was already under Satan’s thumb. Why does the Lord say that? Because of this:

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

As Tom Tompkins explains in his book, Understanding the Book of Job, God gave control of the earth to man…

The highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to mankind. (Psa 115:16)
…but in the Garden of Eden man handed control to Satan. So when the Lord says “all that is his is in your hand!” he is stating a painful fact that will ultimately cost Jesus his life.

To sum up, here are four lies that we get from misreading Job 1:


Lie #1: Satan needs God’s permission to attack us

Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission. In the Garden of Eden we opened the door to sin and have been reaping the consequences ever since.

The good news is it doesn’t have to be this way. By the grace of God the devil flees when we resist him (James 4:7). Don’t be like Job and let the thief plunder your house. Be like David who encouraged himself in the Lord and fought back (1 Sam 30:6).


Lie #2: God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

Woof! What nonsense. What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Cor 6:14)?


Lie #3: God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character

Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do. Although Job thought God was responsible for his loss, God sent Elihu to set him straight. Elihu is a picture of Jesus who went around “healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” (Acts 10:38). Jesus doesn’t give sickness; he takes it from us.


Lie #4: God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us

God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.

First Adam lost control of the planet, but last Adam took back what the devil stole. In Christ you are destined to reign like a king (Rom 5:17).

But you won’t reign if you heed the lies above and follow Job instead of Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.

Unquote:

Here is the link for the article if you want to read the questions at the bottom.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/10/...gods-sheepdog/

Can I hear the literal translation for the verse in the NT: satan has asked to sift you like wheat?
And what does that mean: literal translation?

 

[joaniemarie]

Can I hear the literal translation for the verse in the NT: satan has asked to sift you like wheat?
And what does that mean: literal translation?

Good Evening/morning SBG., I have not looked up the verse yet because I just saw your post. My very first thought and it is consistent with how I always look at Scripture. First I know that it is a matter of fact that satan desires to steal, steal and destroy us because the Bible says so. The only way the enemy of our souls can kill, steal or destroy us is if we give over the ground Jesus has died to give us by either our ignorance or our unbelief about how much we are loved IN Christ and what His promises mean for us today.

That when Adam and Eve sinned., our rightful place was forfeited and given over to the devil. The whole world has been suffering in millions of different ways being stolen from., killed and destroyed ever since. When sin came in everything changed.

When Jesus told Peter that satan desired to sift him like wheat I believe it means to steal his life from him and to ultimately destroy him body AND soul. And Jesus said He prayed for Peter., and for sure Jesus prayers protected Peter as he went through the process. At the time., the Holy Spirit had not yet come so Peter and the rest of the disciples were still in transition in between covenants. No Holy Spirit in them., no new covenant brought in completely yet. Jesus was preparing them and teaching them how to live now and in the new covenant.

No outward signs yet like the Holy Spirit coming.,or the veil in the temple "rent" in two getting rid of what separates man from God the Father.....sin. Jesus had not yet finished the job He came to do.

So with this knowledge I will go and look up the verses and tell you what I find. When I read about the times Jesus was here it is with the knowledge that He had not yet completed the work and was in the process of fulfilling the prophecies that were told about Him written in the OT. After Jesus went to the cross that is when the new covenant got ushered in and He said "It is finished"

 

[joaniemarie]

While looking this sifted issue up I was again brought to JOY by reading Hebrews 7:25 how in the new covenant it's explained about how Jesus takes care of us and compares Jesus to the human priests. Read before and after vs 25

Hence also He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.


What satan desired to do to Job and to Peter., he desires to do to everyone of us 24/7. But we who have Jesus cannot be sifted through like wheat because Jesus lives after the power of an endless life. Jesus is unlike those human high priests who live after the power of a life that ended. We cannot be destroyed by the enemy of our souls because we have a Great High Priest. And as long as He lives we hold to Him and believe on and trust Him, His great and precious promises come pouring into our lives., we will get through the process by grace through faith while we live by faith and not by sight. Just like Job and Peter learned to do.

 

[joaniemarie]

I wasn't taught about Job by my church as you were because I've never had or found a church. So it can't be said that men taught me or showed me in Job. It could be fairly said(though I do not think so) that I've leaned on my own understanding, but it could not be said that men taught me.

We have a precedent that is in the OT AND the NT, that satan is sometimes allowed to sift us like wheat. We have Job and we have Peter. Sifting is for the purpose of removing something. It is not for the purpose of harming the wheat. It is for the purpose of having only the wheat remain, without specks or little pebbles that aren't wheat. A little tiny stone left in wheat can make someone shatter a tooth when they eat a piece of bread baked with it. It can also cause the bread to be inedible if there is no sifting and too much dross (crap) is left in with the wheat.

He guides my every step. He would not allow satan to sift me unless it was for my most blessed good. However, it took some growing in trust for me to truly believe that He was ALWAYS only going to give me or allow for me what would be the very best for me.

Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered. The same happens with me. The obedience and steadfastness of faith is learned through the things He gives us or allows for us. All that I have faced that was distasteful to me, has made my faith in Him more steadfast, as James says. But I didn't start out rejoicing when I met with trials of my faith. I learned to rejoice for the good I saw many times come to me as a result of the trials. But I many times told God that He had come to seem so cruel to me and that He had hedged me in and never seemed to let me catch my breath.

He gives us what we are ready to bear. And He can be trusted!

Part of growing in faith in Him is to learn that He will never give us a stone when we ask for bread. So part of that growing in trust is to not say that something is very hard like a stone to me and so He has given me a stone. That's not going by faith that says our Father, if we ask for bread, sometimes gives us a stone. It's going by faith to say, my Father will not give me a stone to eat when I have asked for bread - this will end in His glory and in my greatest good.

The older and more mature a child becomes, the more difficulties he is faced with. But he has also grown and is more capable of bearing those difficulties.

I'm not talking about what any man or church has taught me. I'm talking about what I have seen and lived. He never allows a trial for any reason other than to grow my trust in Him and to make it more and more pure. Faith is like a muscle. It is with use and with opposition to the muscle that the muscle grows. If the muscle never comes to an opposition to its movement, it will never grow and prove strong enough to push through the opposition or the weight bearing on it. (The trial).

Good morning by the way! Or...this is not morning or afternoon to you, is it? You were drinking your morning coffee at midnight. I've worked nights so I know what you mean about that.

Wish I could comment on each of your paragraphs but it messes up the fonts and I'm not sure how to stop that yet. I see others do it though.

First., I don't believe anymore the way I used to that God sifts us. I believe it is satan who sifts us. I don't believe God puts us in the melting pot so the gold and the dross can be burned out of us while it separates and all the wile we writhe in pain and anguish learning our lessons. NOOOOOOO a thousand times NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Because we live on this planet we must deal with things here., BUT we as believers have JESUS. We have The great High Priest who ever makes intercession for us. Deals with us according to His love and grace for us. Teaches us using His Holy Spirit and His written Word. Has given us ALL THINGS PERTAINING TO LIFE AND GODLINESS.

 

[Magenta]

Wish I could comment on each of your paragraphs but it messes up
the fonts and I'm not sure how to stop that yet. I see others do it though.

You must close the quote after each paragraph. For the first paragraph you want to isolate, just add the [ /quote] (but no spaces ) For each paragraph after that, wrap quote tags around each part you want to separate (it is the first icon on the upper right above the text box), with your responses in between. For the last paragraph, the end quote is already in place. You can delete it and use the quote wrap again, or just add [ quote] at the beginning (no spaces )

Your font style may follow that of the person you are quoting. You might have to edit each of your responses to get the font you want. Or you could type all your responses in one place and then cut them up to paste into the appropriate places. However, the font size may change when you do it that way. Either way, previewing is always best Then you can see if anything needs fixing

 

[joaniemarie]

What "precedent" (?) I see only satan (not God) using this sifting process to kill..steal and destroy Job and Peter and us. Because man gave up his first place in the garden., he opened up a can of worms (literally) for the rest of us. God is not "allowing" satan to do this stuff. "We" have allowed it and brought it upon ourselves as a human race when Adam believed the lie satan told about God and to questions God's goodness and good intentions towards man.

And because God loves His human creation His plan is to save them by freeing them and making them His children again. To do this He sent His Son... the perfect man., totally better than Adam. Jesus is the God-man who was able to deal with satan properly the way Adam couldn't. (we are not asked to deal with satan because Jesus already did) we are to "resist" and we do that by faith in Christ's finished work in and for us knowing the truth. satan then has no choice but to flee and go find someone else who doesn't know the truth.

Sifting from the devil is for the purposes of destroying us piece by piece by using lies., torments, sickness, death., confusion along with other consequences of sin including unbelief. (all came into being at the time of the fall) But NOW Jesus is our (the believer's) High Priest that ALWAYS goes before us.

For as long as we are on earth., we will be learning how to put ON the new man who is made after Christ. satan wants to stop that process by keeping us flesh-minded., earth bound minded. Even though we have been given all these great and precious promises that ARE already ours for walking them out of us by faith. If satan can keep our eyes on the temporal by causing confusion....(something God did not give us) sickness..... (something God did not give us) Pain... (something God did not give us)

he can mess us up for a verrrrrrrrrrrrry loooooong time. We start to attribute the evil in our lives to God because of this false theology that God is sifting us like wheat when it's always satan who does that. Jesus came to give us life and health and peace. Not death and sickness and unrest. If I don't know evil came from the world., flesh and the devil but thought God was sending it to "teach me holy lessons".,,, I will not fight the evil that comes into my life. I will embrace it and call it good. And I did used to do that. But not any more. I call evil = evil and call good = good

This also has something to do with the tree of good and evil. God never meant for us to have to contend with the evil or even have to be aware of it. But because of Adam we are in a world that mixes the lie with the truth. But that should not be what we do. We should be learning all through our lives here on earth how to NOT do that. How Jesus already defeated those things for us. We are now more than conquerors through Christ who loves us.

The process of learning how to put on Christ is done by grace through faith. We are not condemned to sufffffeeeerrrr and writhe in pain as we go forward and learn how to work out by faith what Christ has put in us at the cross. So this whole idea of when we follow Christ there is coming unbearable sufferrring pain and anguish., misery and confusion while being melted in a pot so our gold will show through and the junk comes out of us is to me a lie from the enemy.

The process of (working out what Christ has worked in) Working out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling means with all seriousness of heart knowing how the enemy (goes about as a roaring lion) will seek to defeat the process. The process is done individually by each one of us IN Christ THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Who Jesus said is like RIVERS of LIVING WATERS flowing in and through us. John 7:38-39 And this is not grievous or a miserable burdensome task. Jesus said His burden is light and easy. We are not in a melting vat being melted while screaming in pain and anguish as if in hell on earth. We are not to fear God but love Him knowing that perfect love cast out fear.


We should be learning from the Teacher the HolySpirit through reading the Word. But often (like myself) many of us take what we know about the Bible and go no further.

I thought I had the "basics" of Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit down pat and knew the fundamentals so now I could and He expected me to walk the walk.

So much for what I knew about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

We have a precedent that is in the OT AND the NT, that satan is sometimes allowed to sift us like wheat. We have Job and we have Peter. Sifting is for the purpose of removing something. It is not for the purpose of harming the wheat. It is for the purpose of having only the wheat remain, without specks or little pebbles that aren't wheat. A little tiny stone left in wheat can make someone shatter a tooth when they eat a piece of bread baked with it. It can also cause the bread to be inedible if there is no sifting and too much dross (crap) is left in with the wheat.