Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

No such thing as.... aorist perfect tense

This shows me and others what lengths you will go to to make scripture try and fit your theology.

Do you know that Koine Greek was the perfect language to express the undeniable truth of Christ and His work and our eternal salvation in Him.

Do you really think God did not know what He is doing and would let language be a barrier to HIS truth?

sigh.
Oh my.

The AORIST perfect tense is the one that says that something COULD start in the PAST and continue into the future.

This is true IN SOME CASES, BUT NOT IN THE CASE OF BEING SAVED FOREVER because that doctrine is not biblical.


So you see, UG, we should really leave Greek alone.
If we could only all agree...

 

[Cee]

i don't want to derail the thread, but read Isaiah 66.

This has piqued my curiosity. (The last sentence).
If He IS eternal life, and someone doesn't have Him in them by the new birth, will they live forever somewhere?

 

[BillG]

We all know this. What you folks can't understand is people who are born again through faith in Christ must work or else they will be found to not have the faith that justifies on the Day of Judgment.

Why is this so hard to grasp for you?

Evening.

I think the issue is what are works, their purpose and why.
To me we are called to good works, Jesus said

John 6:28-29


28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

To me ultimately that is what our final judgement will based on.

However you know me well enough not to leave it at that.

Jesus said

John 14:15-18
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

To me if we love him we will keep his commandments, the 2 new commandments he gave but I also think he knows we can't do it perfectly.

If we love him we will want to be like him and walk like him. That's why he has told us to

Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

To me there is no contradiction between the apostles and what Jesus taught, if we take time to research it all harmonises.
If it did not then we have a problem.

So to me we must work not in order to be saved but because we are and if some of our works are deemed on judgement day as worthless they will be burned up but we will be saved as a result of faith in Jesus.

i have said enough but I just want to say that I resonated with the following post by mj007.
To me that is also good works. When you don't want to do it you still do it.
when we do it to me it's agape love, twowards Jesus and the recipient.

However choosing to do good works when it does not by default"

I hope I make some sense

 

[FranC]

I am always interested!

Sorry for the delay L

Ok.

So we say how Jesus came to save us. For salvation.
Right. I don't MEAN TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT.

However, Jesus' main theme when he gave discourses, preached or taught, was NOT salvation.

In the entire 4 gospels He spoke about salvation maybe 5 times.

He spoke about the Kingdom of God, how to be a part of it and what we're supposed to do while in it and what it looks like,
about 100 times.

Surprised?

It's true.

I did a blog on the Kingdom of God.
I'm going to continue it because there's just not enough known about it.
So. Whadaya think?
Seems not true huh?

 

[Magenta]

This has piqued my curiosity. (The last sentence).
If He IS eternal life, and someone doesn't have Him in them by the new birth, will they live forever somewhere?

No. They have their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and pass into the second death. Scripture plainly states that only God is immortal.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you!!!!

Present tense -> progressive (durative) aspect
Aorist tense -> punctiliar (atomic) aspect
Perfect tense -> persistent state

The aorist tense is the one that can have different aspects to it which I believe I saw someone post.

The reality is - when people heard back in biblical New Testament days the words being spoken to them they would know the "implications" of the tenses when used. Even all the perfect Greek speakers and readers still need the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us in the scriptures.

The disciples were with Jesus for over 3 years and He told them in some form or other 17 times that He as going to die and they still didn't understand it.

One thing I have learned is that we can't "make" people see the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Think back to when we were stuck in our own thinking from our church teachings. It is by revelation of the Holy Spirit only that we can see the truths that are in Christ.

A religious stronghold that is hard to uproot is a church teaching that we have been taught all our life. But the Holy Spirit can break through this belief system. Our job is to "proclaim Him and what He has done" and we leave the "revelation" and acceptance of it in the hands of the Lord.

We are all in the same journey together walking with our Lord. Without Him we can do nothing and yet with Him we can do all things.

 

[JIMBO43]

What you could do, is acknowledge that you were wrong.
But that is not likely to happen, and you will carry on as usual.

wrong about what... you just quoted what comes out of the tounge comes from the heart... of corse you would see that as something bad and something good can come from the heart ...

all i said was nothing bad can come from the spirit... why is that wrong...

 

[FranC]

Evening.

I think the issue is what are works, their purpose and why.
To me we are called to good works, Jesus said

John 6:28-29


28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

To me ultimately that is what our final judgement will based on.

However you know me well enough not to leave it at that.

Jesus said

John 14:15-18
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

To me if we love him we will keep his commandments, the 2 new commandments he gave but I also think he knows we can't do it perfectly.

If we love him we will want to be like him and walk like him. That's why he has told us to

Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

To me there is no contradiction between the apostles and what Jesus taught, if we take time to research it all harmonises.
If it did not then we have a problem.

So to me we must work not in order to be saved but because we are and if some of our works are deemed on judgement day as worthless they will be burned up but we will be saved as a result of faith in Jesus.

i have said enough but I just want to say that I resonated with the following post by mj007.
To me that is also good works. When you don't want to do it you still do it.
when we do it to me it's agape love, twowards Jesus and the recipient.





I hope I make some sense

Bill, you neve did answer my post to you where I was telling you about what i meant about works.

Just let me say this and then I'll let you go to PHart...

All you say is true.
PROBLEM:

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN?

I hate to harp on this, but it's CRUCIAL to understanding the entire N. T.

Believe is not a mind OR A HEART type of belief. Although we do believe with our heart.
Please no mail regarding Ezekiel or Jeremiah.

BELIEVE is a verb that requires an ACTION.
If we BELIEVE we must ACT.

I've Always said that John 6:29 CANNOT be used to describe that Jesus ONLY SAID TO BELIEVE and you WILL BE SAVED...
Why?

Because people don't really understand what BELIEVE means.
Basically because the knowledgeable ones don't want to ACKNOWLEDGE what it means. The knowledgeable ones on this thread, I mean. It scares them. It does not scare the WORKERS FOR because we understand WHOLE LOT MORE than the greasy gracers, as you call them and the easy believers.

When Jesus answered in John 6 HE KNEW WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.

I hope you get my point.

BELIEVE means TO DO, NOT simply to believe - either with the MIND, OR WITH THE HEART.

IT MEANS MORE!

Is there one other place where Jesus says this?
NO.

But did He not repeat MANY TIMES what WAS important to HIM?
YES.

§And now I'll be leaving.

 

[FranC]

No. They have their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and pass into the second death. Scripture plainly states that only God is immortal.

So you believe in annihalism?

 

[willybob]

The Bible can be understood immediately.

Except bv those with an agenda.

What's so difficult to understand?
Was it not put together so that everyone can read it and understand it?
Is it only for the very intelligent?
Does the Bible not have to agree with itself?

It's VERY plain and simple.

Yes indeed Fran, very simple; Solomon said our whole purpose in this life is to fear God and keep His commandments,,it doesn't get any simpler than that..In fact that IS what Job did, and he was reckoned to be righteous before God....Solomon also said; as to the many books of men, there is no end....The Pundits write endless books on how we can sin and surely not die..Been doing it for eons, nothing new under the sun..............be blessed

 

[BillG]

Sorry for the delay L

Ok.

So we say how Jesus came to save us. For salvation.
Right. I don't MEAN TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT.

However, Jesus' main theme when he gave discourses, preached or taught, was NOT salvation.

In the entire 4 gospels He spoke about salvation maybe 5 times.

He spoke about the Kingdom of God, how to be a part of it and what we're supposed to do while in it and what it looks like,
about 100 times.

Surprised?

It's true.

I did a blog on the Kingdom of God.
I'm going to continue it because there's just not enough known about it.
So. Whadaya think?
Seems not true huh?

100 times?

Please quote chapters and verses.
Also please don't hit me over my head with a bible

Just joshing with you. Have you ironed my shirts yet?

Matthew 4:17


17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

[UnderGrace]

Interesting observation.....Yes Sully was absolutely right. We miss you Sully!

A training program for how to reduce, redefine, deflect, deny, avoid etc., etc., .....LOL

I don't think you are doing reductionism, I know you are. you might not identify with the word, but that is what you are doing. and also, this belittling of others , like undergarce's husband because he does not agree with your interprataion of greek language is an argument tactic.

and I just looked at baker's evangelical dictionary of Biblical theology, and the connection of believe and faith. no mention of works. so, either identify the source you are referring to, or stop referring to it. I ain't playing your game. you are wrong till you provide a source about believe means works. and the Bible nor would the Holy Sprit ( the Sprit of truth )would confirm this disiformation.

 

[Limey410v2]

Sorry for the delay L

Ok.

So we say how Jesus came to save us. For salvation.
Right. I don't MEAN TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT.

However, Jesus' main theme when he gave discourses, preached or taught, was NOT salvation.

In the entire 4 gospels He spoke about salvation maybe 5 times.

He spoke about the Kingdom of God, how to be a part of it and what we're supposed to do while in it and what it looks like,
about 100 times.

Surprised?

It's true.

I did a blog on the Kingdom of God.
I'm going to continue it because there's just not enough known about it.
So. Whadaya think?
Seems not true huh?

I don't disagree with that. I believe that upon salvation we enter into that Kingdom, we get to participate in the things of God, and He participates in our lives.
He lives with us and and we with Him, as a new creation.
We are guided in Spirit by Him, we live by the Spirit.
I also believe that it is a transaction that cannot be undone, because salvation is the beginning, our eternal life in the Kingdom begins with salvation, it does not end in salvation.

 

[gb9]

Bill, you neve did answer my post to you where I was telling you about what i meant about works.

Just let me say this and then I'll let you go to PHart...

All you say is true.
PROBLEM:

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN?

I hate to harp on this, but it's CRUCIAL to understanding the entire N. T.

Believe is not a mind OR A HEART type of belief. Although we do believe with our heart.
Please no mail regarding Ezekiel or Jeremiah.

BELIEVE is a verb that requires an ACTION.
If we BELIEVE we must ACT.

I've Always said that John 6:29 CANNOT be used to describe that Jesus ONLY SAID TO BELIEVE and you WILL BE SAVED...
Why?

Because people don't really understand what BELIEVE means.
Basically because the knowledgeable ones don't want to ACKNOWLEDGE what it means. The knowledgeable ones on this thread, I mean. It scares them. It does not scare the WORKERS FOR because we understand WHOLE LOT MORE than the greasy gracers, as you call them and the easy believers.

When Jesus answered in John 6 HE KNEW WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.

I hope you get my point.

BELIEVE means TO DO, NOT simply to believe - either with the MIND, OR WITH THE HEART.

IT MEANS MORE!

Is there one other place where Jesus says this?
NO.

But did He not repeat MANY TIMES what WAS important to HIM?
YES.

§And now I'll be leaving.

believe DOES NOT MEAN ' to do ' , either site your source that says so, or stop saying it.

 

[willybob]

Grace!

Looks like you know how many times.....

So.
How many times did Jesus speak about salvation in the gospels?

Let's hear it.

Then tell me how many times He spoke about the Kingdom, how to get in it and how to stay there.

I asked Stone too, but she refuses to do this.
I think she doesn't like the answer.

How 'bout you???

Yes again Fran; and one might ask why didn't Jesus just tell all this new-age magical mushy grace theology to the rich young ruler? But no He didn't do that, and the rich young ruler walked away sorrowful...be blessed
Y

 

[Grace777x70]

In speaking about "Greek" and Greek scholars - I find this hilarious.

There are Greek scholars that believe in speaking in tongues or healing and other subjects and there are Greek scholars who don't believe in it.

The hilarious part is that both groups use their "knowledge of Greek to prove their points."

Then they get into this "My Greek scholar is better than your Greek scholar and more "well-known" and accepted. ( Which usually means more accepted in their own ranks that believe the same things they do. )

We are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ and what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection in the scriptures as Mary was dependent on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.

 

[Limey410v2]

100 times?

Please quote chapters and verses.
Also please don't hit me over my head with a bible

Just joshing with you. Have you ironed my shirts yet?

Matthew 4:17


17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Is that the Highlander?, your Avatar? I loved that movie! (The 1st one)

 

[BillG]

Bill, you neve did answer my post to you where I was telling you about what i meant about works.

Just let me say this and then I'll let you go to PHart...

All you say is true.
PROBLEM:

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN?

I hate to harp on this, but it's CRUCIAL to understanding the entire N. T.

Believe is not a mind OR A HEART type of belief. Although we do believe with our heart.
Please no mail regarding Ezekiel or Jeremiah.

BELIEVE is a verb that requires an ACTION.
If we BELIEVE we must ACT.

I've Always said that John 6:29 CANNOT be used to describe that Jesus ONLY SAID TO BELIEVE and you WILL BE SAVED...
Why?

Because people don't really understand what BELIEVE means.
Basically because the knowledgeable ones don't want to ACKNOWLEDGE what it means. The knowledgeable ones on this thread, I mean. It scares them. It does not scare the WORKERS FOR because we understand WHOLE LOT MORE than the greasy gracers, as you call them and the easy believers.

When Jesus answered in John 6 HE KNEW WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.

I hope you get my point.

BELIEVE means TO DO, NOT simply to believe - either with the MIND, OR WITH THE HEART.

IT MEANS MORE!

Is there one other place where Jesus says this?
NO.

But did He not repeat MANY TIMES what WAS important to HIM?
YES.

§And now I'll be leaving.

Not seen your response, looked out for it.
Obviously missed it.

All I say is true you say but you add a caveate. And to me that caveat is against what I posted yet what I posted.
I never said we do not need to work, I said we need to work.

For some reason you have twisted what I have said. I said faith on judgement day saves and any works worthless will be burned up. I never said we did not need to act and I posted bible verses quoting we must.

Anyway soon will be out of your way and others. You carry on here.

As for me I'm done.

 

[Cee]

Once again preaching you must do good works doesn't get it done.

Heres why:

What is a good work? It is loving people.

We show our love for God by loving one another.

So if you want to truly empower good works, I suggest teaching that we love one another. And when people STRUGGLE loving one another you can remind them how much God (their Vine) LOVES them.

Take a good HARD look at the works of the flesh and notice that each of them deals with how we treat each other.

Because the flesh in this case is self-driven.

But a true good work, which are those done FREELY and out of LOVE, is SPIRIT-driven.

This is important to understand because where the Spirit is there is Freedom.

And we use this freedom to love one another. THAT is a goood work.

However when you teach people they MUST do good works to remain saved, you put the focus back on SELF-driven motivations, you remove their FREE choice to love. And you ensnare people to trying to obtain their own righteousness.

And because they don't fully know the forgiveness and love of the Lord which EMPOWERS them to freely love one another.

You consign them to a life WITHOUT good works.

The theology of salvation through works ends up creating baby Christians who stay carnal because they don't understand the Spirit lead reality of who they are in Christ.

This IS why Christians who are in this mindset struggle with bearing the fruit of their own message.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I do understand what you are saying.

No one will loose salvation over tongues, I have only a small understanding of the Greek myself, however some things are so obvious in the original Greek I though Phart would be persuaded, but he was not.

My worry is that there is a concerted effort (almost like a conspiracy but now quite ) to have those less secure in their walk fall into a work for salvation thinking which we both know is miserable.

But it is true, eventually it will be work of the Holy Spirit if they have genuine desire to know.

The ignore button is another good option.

In speaking about "Greek" and Greek scholars - I find this hilarious.

There are Greek scholars that believe in speaking in tongues and there are Greek scholars who don't believe in it.

The hilarious part is that both groups use their "knowledge of Greek to prove their points."

Then they get into this "My Greek scholar is better than your Greek scholar and more "well-known" and accepted. ( Which usually means more accepted in their own ranks that believe the same things they do. )

We are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ and what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection in the scriptures as Mary was dependent on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.