Not By Works
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I do harmonize Scriptures.
Revelation 3:2 is written to individual churches. Candlestick is the light the church has. I'm sure you've seen many churches that lost their candlestick in the community. But even more importantly is that it's a prophetic book. It's allegory, which means we don't use Revelation to reinterpret clear Scripture. We use clear Scripture to interpret Revelation.
Work out salvation with fear in trembling... but you can't stop there, keep reading... BECAUSE it is God who works within you... your work is agreeing with His work. He prepared the good works for us. He designed is for good works, but we must GROW UP in the knowledge of Him.
Salvation isn't a reward. It's a gift. Rewards are different we receive those at the Bema seat of judgment. Notice in Revelation that the kings throw their CROWNS down at His feet.
And finally even IF Revelation is talking about eternal life, which I don't believe it fully is, the transformed state of the believer is because of their faith not their good works.
A lot of people believe God can save them from eternal life, but ignore the present reality that we are now a new creation created to desire the things of God. And when people don't? It's because they've forgotten who they are. Not because they lost the Spirit of God. He never leaves us or forsakes us. Ever.
Revelation 3:2 is written to individual churches. Candlestick is the light the church has. I'm sure you've seen many churches that lost their candlestick in the community. But even more importantly is that it's a prophetic book. It's allegory, which means we don't use Revelation to reinterpret clear Scripture. We use clear Scripture to interpret Revelation.
Work out salvation with fear in trembling... but you can't stop there, keep reading... BECAUSE it is God who works within you... your work is agreeing with His work. He prepared the good works for us. He designed is for good works, but we must GROW UP in the knowledge of Him.
Salvation isn't a reward. It's a gift. Rewards are different we receive those at the Bema seat of judgment. Notice in Revelation that the kings throw their CROWNS down at His feet.
And finally even IF Revelation is talking about eternal life, which I don't believe it fully is, the transformed state of the believer is because of their faith not their good works.
A lot of people believe God can save them from eternal life, but ignore the present reality that we are now a new creation created to desire the things of God. And when people don't? It's because they've forgotten who they are. Not because they lost the Spirit of God. He never leaves us or forsakes us. Ever.
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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I often say that love is a verb thanks to the above teaching.
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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I often say that love is a verb thanks to the above teaching.
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Luke 19, 9-10 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Ummm not the aorist tense it is the perfect tense we are speaking about.
He will not be looking up anything he is gone. I already know what he has taught me, he was an ordained minister.
He will not be looking up anything he is gone. I already know what he has taught me, he was an ordained minister.
Oh my.
The AORIST perfect tense is the one that says that something COULD start in the PAST and continue into the future.
This is true IN SOME CASES, BUT NOT IN THE CASE OF BEING SAVED FOREVER because that doctrine is not biblical.
So you see, UG, we should really leave Greek alone.
If we could only all agree...
I repped you
Seven will show at a time. http://christianchat.com/usercp.php
Well said!
In 1 Co 13 Paul boiled all the good works down to ONE thing: Love.
We can do all the things you listed and more, but without love we gain nothing. No reward.
So that begs the question WHY do we love?
He loved us first. We abide in His love. He forgave us of much.
These truths produce true good works.
In 1 Co 13 Paul boiled all the good works down to ONE thing: Love.
We can do all the things you listed and more, but without love we gain nothing. No reward.
So that begs the question WHY do we love?
He loved us first. We abide in His love. He forgave us of much.
These truths produce true good works.
what comes out of the heart is what can be put into your heart... so for instance if you feed your child to much sugar he wil become obese..
if you feed your child satanic lies he will lie to..
if you feed your child love,, they will love you back..
if you feed your child hate they will hate back..
if you make your child hate theres agood chance they will hate..
if you make your child think there is no God,, they will believe that too..
must i go on. ?
if you feed your child satanic lies he will lie to..
if you feed your child love,, they will love you back..
if you feed your child hate they will hate back..
if you make your child hate theres agood chance they will hate..
if you make your child think there is no God,, they will believe that too..
must i go on. ?
There is no such thing as an "aorist perfect tense".
There is an aorist tense and perfect tense. Two different tenses each describing a different action.
Quote:
Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.
'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.
For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.
In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17
Unquote:
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
There is an aorist tense and perfect tense. Two different tenses each describing a different action.
Quote:
Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.
'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.
For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.
In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17
Unquote:
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Here is a post about Ephesians 2:8-9 that has spoken to me of the completed work of Christ for us.
It speaks of the "perfect tense" in regards to being saved by grace through faith when we believed the gospel message as can be seen in Eph. 1:13
Quote:
Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The Believer's Study Bible writes that...
The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English.
The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation).
This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...
Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something.
In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense.
The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results.
The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.”
Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms.
(Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)
Here is the link from a former member's post.
Verse for "once saved always saved"?
It speaks of the "perfect tense" in regards to being saved by grace through faith when we believed the gospel message as can be seen in Eph. 1:13
Quote:
Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The Believer's Study Bible writes that...
The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English.
The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation).
This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...
Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something.
In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense.
The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results.
The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.”
Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms.
(Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)
Here is the link from a former member's post.
Verse for "once saved always saved"?
This is where you need understanding.
We don't get eternal life by leaving Earth.
We get eternal life in Christ. Take a look at your Bible and do a search for the words "in Christ". THIS is a present reality not a future one. We are citizens of Heaven now, we are seated with God now, we are joined to His Spirit now, we abide in Him now, He came to give us life and life abundantly now, the same Spirit of life that raised Christ lives in us now.
And it is because we HAVE passed from death to LIFE. That we DISPLAY fruit from the Spirit. Fruit of the Spirit is the multi-sided fruit of Love. Notice it's not "fruits of the Spirit". Anything not of Love is NOT a good work. Because GOD is Love.
We don't get eternal life by leaving Earth.
We get eternal life in Christ. Take a look at your Bible and do a search for the words "in Christ". THIS is a present reality not a future one. We are citizens of Heaven now, we are seated with God now, we are joined to His Spirit now, we abide in Him now, He came to give us life and life abundantly now, the same Spirit of life that raised Christ lives in us now.
And it is because we HAVE passed from death to LIFE. That we DISPLAY fruit from the Spirit. Fruit of the Spirit is the multi-sided fruit of Love. Notice it's not "fruits of the Spirit". Anything not of Love is NOT a good work. Because GOD is Love.