Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

And if the sinners prayer is a true change of mind towards belief in the full complete work of Jesus as propitiation for sin and someone prays that prayer with Jesus and His work as the object of their faith...then what?

Are they good or not?

Matthew 7:16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


i cant judge this fictional person

but God will see their heart


and we can only see their fruit

 

[FranC]

last i was asked about "osas"


this is how i answered


________________________

i dont think "once saved always saved" is correct in the sense you say the sinners prayer and youre good

but ... ok

first heres an example im sure you know



Luke 15:11-32

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

______________
now, the younger son NEEDED to return to his father and repent EVEN though before he left he was still his son

just feeling sorry
and regretting didnt save him..

his father did

but HE had to return .... and his father was happy to RUN to him while he was still on his way back, and recieve him with open arms
________________




this is where confusion hits
___________
Romans 8:2

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

_______________
Proverbs 24:16

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

__________________

limited to seven?

no

Matthew 18:21-22

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

_________________
L
its not a matter of how much we fall


its not a matter of our works

its not a matter of us HAVING salvation


its a matter of belief in Jesus

and LIVING according to the Holy spirit



now someone can have experienced the Holy spirit

heard Gods call

then depart from the faith

but these people will show it in their fruits


Romans 1:27-28

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


____________

1 Timothy 4

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I agree!

Sorry. In my other post I didn't address this.

My question would be...
What if the prodigal son had not returned to the father?

You present a complete explanation above but the answer to this question is pivitle.

Here's how I would answer...

If he didn't return , he would have been lost.
Why?

Because I agree with your statement that it is a matter of believing in Jesus.
As long as we have Jesus, we're saved.
If the son had not returned home, he would not have had Jesus.

 

[gb9]

NNM

Do you not believe that YOU are correct?

And, if you believe in eternal security, you do have a calvinist view.
No apology necessary.

I'm arminian in my beliefs.
What's the problem in saying it??

well, Arminian beliefs are justifaication is sola fide, yet you seem to think otherwise. interesting.

 

[Grace777x70]

We "get to do good works and we are participating in the family business of telling and showing others of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them" because His life is in us now - but they are not for salvation nor for maintaining being saved.

That's an anti-Christ belief system that is simply a works-based self-righteousness belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Right believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life - will bring right thinking ( repentance ) which will manifest in His life being seen in our lives outwardly as His fruit is borne on us the branches.

This is what produces real godliness based on Christ alone by grace through faith.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6-8

This is all done by grace through faith alone in Christ and what He has already done on the cross and resurrection.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our wisdom, our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved". Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

If we want to experience our inheritance that is ours in Christ while we are in this earth - it's imperative that we don't live by the flesh.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You referenced John in regard to what the Messiah taught So have a word with yourself.. nothing is void but affirms... so we need not carry on this.. deny or recieve is your decision.

your last question is quite leading..

Do you want me to say I'm saved and you are not or you are saved and iam not and become the judge.



You say im not worthy of eternal life... and I guess you deem you are so that seperates us.

You may think you rely completely on the work of the cross and believe I don't...


I Trust in GOD who is the power of the cross... and if accusations warranted then so be it.


What say you?

No, I never asked you to determine if I was saved or not, or you were.

I wish you would stop doing like so many and think everyone is out to get you, Just say what you believe. I am not out to attack or hurt you.

I asked

We both believe faith produces works, We both believe a child of God will do works, We both believe faith without works is dead.

so what seperates us??

As for you believe in the power of the cross.. Do you believe it can fail? Do you believe salvation can be lost or not?

The word says he who begun a good work in you will complete it. Do you believe that? I do.

The word says by one offering (the cross) he has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified, I believe this,, do you?

Jesus said whoever believes in him, will never hunger or thirst, Will live forever, will never die, has passed from death to life, and will be ressurected personnally by him on the last day, I believe this, do you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i never once said i believe in eternal security

so false accusation

and "beliefs aside

im speaking of the false accusations
dirt flinging
spiteful words
disgusting cowardly passive aggression

self image bleeding through every word...

a DESIRE to argue

with zero intention to act as God intends his children to act


no desire to help a brother a sister a neighbor or an enemy

only desire to be correct
to be the winner
to esteem themself


its not of God"

I just wish people would respond by actually showing what part of what a person said you disagree wiht, then say why and then show how you think the bible disagrees.

Instead of just using the strawman, Your not listening to God. Jesus said I am right you are wrong etc etc.

then we could get some actual conversation going on.. I also wish people would see and ask why they do this.. because I believe it is a programed response taught to us by many of our churches.

 

[loveme1]

No, I never asked you to determine if I was saved or not, or you were.

I wish you would stop doing like so many and think everyone is out to get you, Just say what you believe. I am not out to attack or hurt you.

I asked

We both believe faith produces works, We both believe a child of God will do works, We both believe faith without works is dead.

so what seperates us??

As for you believe in the power of the cross.. Do you believe it can fail? Do you believe salvation can be lost or not?

The word says he who begun a good work in you will complete it. Do you believe that? I do.

The word says by one offering (the cross) he has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified, I believe this,, do you?

Jesus said whoever believes in him, will never hunger or thirst, Will live forever, will never die, has passed from death to life, and will be ressurected personnally by him on the last day, I believe this, do you?

Eg.. I hope you don't me passing up on your questionnaire.. you are not consistent and go back and forth like the wind... it is not bearing fruit to continue on and on.. I have shared much and you can read through or not.

I'm content and more in love with GOD and our Lord and Saviour than ever... I thank them for their love and Truth.

 

[Stephen63]

then why would you say God would even think of kicking one of his children out of his family? To me, that is not a God who is worthy, That is a God who does not keep his promises

Your god is a very easy, greasy god. Just say you believe & it's done.

But not mine.....
Hebrews 10:29

ESV
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you ever cease?

Stop speaking with such ignorance.. is this your conscience debating itself?

do you have anything useful to say? All you have done all day is attack me and belittle me, is that how you discuss with people?

At least I show you what I disagree with you on, and show you why, can you possibly do this without attacking?

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I would agree in part, however we cannot judge the source of the fruit perfectly either, I have met very loving, kind, humble JW's as well.

And while they speak of a new birth the source or understanding of who Jesus is does not line up with scripture.

Acting good in the world is done by many.

And Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Best not to be a fruit inspector.

Matthew 7:16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


i cant judge this fictional person

but God will see their heart


and we can only see their fruit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matthew 7:16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


i cant judge this fictional person

but God will see their heart


and we can only see their fruit

I agree in part. But will say we may not see their fruit. Many people work in the background, and we do not find out all they did until long after they did it.

Not everyone is like paul.

we will see a changed life. I agree, but we may not see alot of fruit.. That does not mean they are not saved

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Magenta]

You say im not worthy of eternal life... and I guess you deem you are so that seperates us.

I read it that nobody is worthy, as per Romans 3:10

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

Rom 3:12 All have turned away; they have together become
worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I agree in part. But will say we may not see their fruit. Many people work in the background, and we do not find out all they did until long after they did it.

Not everyone is like paul.

we will see a changed life. I agree, but we may not see alot of fruit.. That does not mean they are not saved

I hope this makes sense.

i mean more so the fruits of the Holy spirit

not our works

patience
long suffering
the ability to love even when facing trials
and one who puts Gods will above their own


SELFLESSNESS

in short

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg.. I hope you don't me passing up on your questionnaire.. you are not consistent and go back and forth like the wind... it is not bearing fruit to continue on and on.. I have shared much and you can read through or not.

I'm content and more in love with GOD and our Lord and Saviour than ever... I thank them for their love and Truth.

I have been the same all day, I have asked you the same questions, the same ones you never answer.

I love God more every day, I love to work for him,

Again, why are we fighting if we both love God the same?

You can continue to attack or belittle or do what I call beet around the bush,

or you can finally answer..

 

[loveme1]

do you have anything useful to say? All you have done all day is attack me and belittle me, is that how you discuss with people?

At least I show you what I disagree with you on, and show you why, can you possibly do this without attacking?

You create much to make a point... that I attest to... you can try to deflect... you can enjoy conversing g with me but I really don't think you are blameless either... I withdrew because you are self serving... you dare to propose things about GOD.. then write something like this.

Please refrain.. I don't like to ignore.. I really don't.. you can sing to the pipes all your heart desires..

 

[garee]

Oh.
So you DO hate work!!!
Another post to store away.

No wonder you simply cannot state the truth.
You don't believe the truth.

The cat is out of the bag.
THIRD one!

I would think most Christians love doing the works that God requires of us as He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Like a well spring of life it gives us a living hope He will give us our new incorrutible bodies the kind of hope that will not dissapoint us . We I would offer work out our union, not work to gain it.

What do we have that we have not recieved and if we have freely received it with no cost on our behalf (grace) Why would we boast as if we earned it ?

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his "good pleasure".Phi 2:12

Its by His will is our daily food called daily bread.(Your will be done on earth as it is from heaven as two walking together in agreement.


I would offer as we are informed by John 6it is the "work of God" as the belief of God (work of faith) that we can believe Him who has no form and not that of our ownselves as if our thoughts were His thoughts and our ways His. Turning things upside down as the apostate Jews were noted for.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the "work of God", that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The food of the will of God working in the believer. It was the kind of food hid in a parable the disciples knew not of.

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31


Some thought the wonder works reqyiured of us were of thier own will, that they called free will not knowing they were born in bondage to the will of the god of this world Sartan the father of lies. Christ called them who knew not who works in men to perform the will of the Creator..... workers of inquity.

Free will to a beliver is to do the will of another who has no form (the principle of Faith) Christ's good will that walked with Adam and Eve was given up to do the pleasure of another will .The father of lies who also has no form in which he put his thoughts on the tongue of the serpent ....therefore turning things upside down as if the Faithfull Creator had a form we could behold. The goal of the antichrist today, walk by sight.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i mean more so the fruits of the Holy spirit

not our works

patience
long suffering
the ability to love even when facing trials
and one who puts Gods will above their own

Do you think a child of God can struggle at times with these?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You create much to make a point... that I attest to... you can try to deflect... you can enjoy conversing g with me but I really don't think you are blameless either... I withdrew because you are self serving... you dare to propose things about GOD.. then write something like this.

Please refrain.. I don't like to ignore.. I really don't.. you can sing to the pipes all your heart desires..

I guess you will be like Fran and the rest.

I will pray for you. Like I do them,

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen Magenta

This is where we start, in this truth, it is what brings true repentance ( a change of mind ) knowing there is nothing we can do to earn or keep our salvation

Faith/belief is the vehicle but by grace we are saved and it is a gift.

It is His work, not ours that decrees us justified.

I read it that nobody is worthy, as per Romans 3:10

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

Rom 3:12 All have turned away; they have together become
worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

 

[stonesoffire]

I agree. But whenever I say this I get called a 'works salvationist', and it doesn't get any 'likes' from the people who like your posts, lol. Go figure.

Hi Phart. I agree with your intent but then you throw in words like "must" and your truth becomes law. If we are filled with Holy Spirit, and know who and what we are IN CHRIST, then we move and have our being out of union. Works that are birthed out of the new man.