Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I forgot to say something else Rosemary.
You asked if I don't think it's hard to walk in the fruits of the Spirit. You have asked a very big question.
It was very hard for me when I tried so hard.
When I saw that all my hard trying ended in failure at some point, every time, I admitted my weakness and poverty and stopped trying and started asking for what I lacked. At that point, it became much easier because His strength is perfected in my weakness. Therefore, I will glory in my weakness because when I am weak and admit it, He is strong!
You asked if I don't think it's hard to walk in the fruits of the Spirit. You have asked a very big question.
It was very hard for me when I tried so hard.
When I saw that all my hard trying ended in failure at some point, every time, I admitted my weakness and poverty and stopped trying and started asking for what I lacked. At that point, it became much easier because His strength is perfected in my weakness. Therefore, I will glory in my weakness because when I am weak and admit it, He is strong!
After being in this thread for quite a long time.
It feels like some people stress works because they want to see people follow Jesus' commands. And that I believe is an incredible desire, one I fully agree with!
And some stress grace because they know that while faith without works is dead in its ability to bear fruit. None of us can actually earn our salvation. If that was possible why would Jesus have needed to be given?
Where I believe the chasm of misunderstanding is in the idea of "good works".
Did the Pharisees exercise good works?
Was their "perceived holiness" and strict obedience to what they believed Scripture to be: holiness?
I don't think so.
I believe in fact they missed what good works are the moment they tried to "do what Scripture taught for eternal life".
The idea that we ourselves can somehow do enough, or follow enough laws to make God pleased with us is really quite prideful. He doesn't have to love us based on what we do. He chooses to love us based on who He is.
And its in accepting His love that we begin to walk out what a "good work" is: treating others as He treats us.
The issue with everyone outside of Christ is that their love and works originate with them, but our love and works originates from Him. And this is why I believe we must first be saved in order to be His witness and to do true good works.
It feels like some people stress works because they want to see people follow Jesus' commands. And that I believe is an incredible desire, one I fully agree with!
And some stress grace because they know that while faith without works is dead in its ability to bear fruit. None of us can actually earn our salvation. If that was possible why would Jesus have needed to be given?
Where I believe the chasm of misunderstanding is in the idea of "good works".
Did the Pharisees exercise good works?
Was their "perceived holiness" and strict obedience to what they believed Scripture to be: holiness?
I don't think so.
I believe in fact they missed what good works are the moment they tried to "do what Scripture taught for eternal life".
The idea that we ourselves can somehow do enough, or follow enough laws to make God pleased with us is really quite prideful. He doesn't have to love us based on what we do. He chooses to love us based on who He is.
And its in accepting His love that we begin to walk out what a "good work" is: treating others as He treats us.
The issue with everyone outside of Christ is that their love and works originate with them, but our love and works originates from Him. And this is why I believe we must first be saved in order to be His witness and to do true good works.
Last edited:
E
Thank you, I am glad you were not offended
Like you, if peopl use grace as an excuse to sin, they are wrong, and Paul, James and Jude all spoke on this issue, and the words they used (especially Jude) were not kind words, they let them have it,
what has happened though by many, even some in here, is they have made the same mistake the Jews made,
the Jews made a whole whole book of laws in order to help them prevent breaking the sins of Gods law, so they would. OT experience Babylon again,
in the NT church especially highlighted by Rome, they did the same, they made works as a required service to god to keep salvation in order to not be tempted to use grace as a means to excuse sin.
in other words, they went the exact opposite to what they are afraid of, and in turn made a gospel just as wrong and evil as the gospel they appose,
i do not blame people and it is hard, I blame the churches who blind their members with this legalistic fight against grace,
in reality, if you look at the Roman Catholic Church and the Jewish assembly in christs day, and do not look at the different laws and sacraments which separate the two, they are almost identical
1, based on history and tradition
2. Traditional ceremonies which are required, the Jews called them works of the law, th catholic call them sacraments
3. a high priest (one who mediates between god and man)
4. A priesthood
i can name many more similarities.
much of the churches who left in the reformation left with a lot of the same tendencies, only less stringent, but maintained the same works based gospel.
The argument is still between the mother church (Rome and her children) and the one true church of God and he children. Sadly we see that war which has been raging since the beginning of time still waging today, even in CC.
Like you, if peopl use grace as an excuse to sin, they are wrong, and Paul, James and Jude all spoke on this issue, and the words they used (especially Jude) were not kind words, they let them have it,
what has happened though by many, even some in here, is they have made the same mistake the Jews made,
the Jews made a whole whole book of laws in order to help them prevent breaking the sins of Gods law, so they would. OT experience Babylon again,
in the NT church especially highlighted by Rome, they did the same, they made works as a required service to god to keep salvation in order to not be tempted to use grace as a means to excuse sin.
in other words, they went the exact opposite to what they are afraid of, and in turn made a gospel just as wrong and evil as the gospel they appose,
i do not blame people and it is hard, I blame the churches who blind their members with this legalistic fight against grace,
in reality, if you look at the Roman Catholic Church and the Jewish assembly in christs day, and do not look at the different laws and sacraments which separate the two, they are almost identical
1, based on history and tradition
2. Traditional ceremonies which are required, the Jews called them works of the law, th catholic call them sacraments
3. a high priest (one who mediates between god and man)
4. A priesthood
i can name many more similarities.
much of the churches who left in the reformation left with a lot of the same tendencies, only less stringent, but maintained the same works based gospel.
The argument is still between the mother church (Rome and her children) and the one true church of God and he children. Sadly we see that war which has been raging since the beginning of time still waging today, even in CC.
Hi Jim...I have to agree with you as the Lord is leading me on my path...Other wise why are we told we must practice...xox...
...Other wise why are we told we must practice...xox...
He will complete the good work He began in us. Justification declares that we are righteous before God by faith, apart from any works that follow. It was apparently a dividing line that was part of the schism behind the Reformation five hundred years ago. God will credit righteousness to us who believe in him Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
E
Then as james, Paul, john and many others said, and if it is ok, I will use the words of john, (they have never seen or known god)
why! Their faith was dead, that's why they had no works, because as we both agree, faith produces salvation produces works, if one has no work, then they must never have had faith.
why! Their faith was dead, that's why they had no works, because as we both agree, faith produces salvation produces works, if one has no work, then they must never have had faith.
Hi Jim...I have to agree with you as the Lord is leading me on my path...Other wise why are we told we must practice...xox...
...Other wise why are we told we must practice...xox...
E
I would say, if this were the only difference, we could come to an agreement, because we both have the same desire,
1. we all want to see people follow god
2. we can't earn salvation,
which like you and many of us in here, we have been proclaiming these things as facts since day one,
the reason son there is so much heat is because these are not the only two beliefs, as a few have outright declaired openly, they believe works are required to be saved, and one said even the cross is not enough, we have our part in the act of salvation,
and it is here where all the division and discord is seen.
1. we all want to see people follow god
2. we can't earn salvation,
which like you and many of us in here, we have been proclaiming these things as facts since day one,
the reason son there is so much heat is because these are not the only two beliefs, as a few have outright declaired openly, they believe works are required to be saved, and one said even the cross is not enough, we have our part in the act of salvation,
and it is here where all the division and discord is seen.
im even contemplating building a tesla eleectric car and make it it look like a ferrari and then letting the customer have it at just 3000 profit for me... im only going to build 10 a year.. so email if your intrested i am well studied in carbon fibre modeling....i wreckon i could build it for 10 to 15000...
Last edited:
Amen...So we must work out our Salvation's, with trembling and fear, we must heed the warnings from God, the warnings come to those who have excepted Jesus as our Savior, we have warnings for a reason, even the devil believes in Jesus, but he is willing to everything against the working of Christ...We are given a Armour suit to wear to move forward, have you noticed that God has not given us anything for our back side, we are not to sit passively while we wait upon the Lord, we are only armored to move forward...Sorry EG, think i may be rambling ...xox...
...xox...
E
Amen...So we must work out our Salvation's, with trembling and fear, we must heed the warnings from God, the warnings come to those who have excepted Jesus as our Savior, we have warnings for a reason, even the devil believes in Jesus, but he is willing to everything against the working of Christ...We are given a Armour suit to wear to move forward, have you noticed that God has not given us anything for our back side, we are not to sit passively while we wait upon the Lord, we are only armored to move forward...Sorry EG, think i may be rambling ...xox...
...xox...
Yes!!!
we must do all these things, because not a person in this room wants to ruin their testimony where they are unable to share gods word, our first priority. So we must work out the salvation god gave us and be lights in a wicked world,
it is when we say we must do these to keep, or not lose our salvation or sonship that we get into legalism, and depending on self for salvation.
I don't think that's where the division and discord comes. We are all at a different stage in our understanding and in having our minds renewed. We therefore, will believe differently about some things until all attain to maturity. A man can't walk by light he doesn't yet have. He can only walk by what light he has.
The division and discord comes from exactly what the apostle said it comes from! It doesn't come from some being children and some being more mature and renewed, it comes from the flesh, just as he said.
Otherwise, he would have said: what causes fights and quarrels among you? Isn't it because of your different ideas and understandings? But instead he said the quarrels come from a battle of desires IN us. (Us would include all of us, not just "them.")
To those who believe you can lose your salvation, I have asked before specifics on what amount of turning away from sin is enough, but I have not received an answer, so let me try a different approach:
After how much sinning have you lost your salvation? Is there any specifics? How do you know if you've lost it? Can you get it back? Certainly these questions have specific and clear answers, I will be sitting back and waiting, hopefully someone can enlighten me, unless this post drowns in the fast flow of the thread.
After how much sinning have you lost your salvation? Is there any specifics? How do you know if you've lost it? Can you get it back? Certainly these questions have specific and clear answers, I will be sitting back and waiting, hopefully someone can enlighten me, unless this post drowns in the fast flow of the thread.
E
The gospel is a basic truth, if we do not have it right, there will be no maturing, we have to get saved first, and there is only one gospel which will save us.
Yes, we may disagree on other aspects of the Christian life, and may need to grow to understand more, if If the root of the gospel is wrong, we are still dead
a dead person can not grow, they must be made alive first. We can only be made alive by the one true gospel,
I think for me to be honest I have come to the conclusion that Jesus is greater than it all.
It is he who sits at the judgment seat an he alone who says "Well done good and faithful servant" it his he who separates the sheep and the goats based on his verdict of what we have done. And what we have done we have done for him as a result of knowing him.
I would say given my life experience thst actually what I have done for him was not out of love as such but in order to be loved.
When I realised that he actually loved me then my whole world changed and our relationship took on a whole new dynamic.
My father loves me as much as my Jesus and he sent him to this world for me.
There is no greater love than that.
If we trust get that then we walk in that.
ps on a side note given that I am Scottish 100% if ever you find out that it's only ???% and remind me of that then I will be truly offended and I would have to give you the Glasgow kiss
FREEDOM as William Wallace said.
Truth is FREEDOM IS FOUND IN CHRIST
It is he who sits at the judgment seat an he alone who says "Well done good and faithful servant" it his he who separates the sheep and the goats based on his verdict of what we have done. And what we have done we have done for him as a result of knowing him.
I would say given my life experience thst actually what I have done for him was not out of love as such but in order to be loved.
When I realised that he actually loved me then my whole world changed and our relationship took on a whole new dynamic.
My father loves me as much as my Jesus and he sent him to this world for me.
There is no greater love than that.
If we trust get that then we walk in that.
ps on a side note given that I am Scottish 100% if ever you find out that it's only ???% and remind me of that then I will be truly offended and I would have to give you the Glasgow kiss
FREEDOM as William Wallace said.
Truth is FREEDOM IS FOUND IN CHRIST