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"He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty...He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge."
Ps 91:1-4
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Lk 13:34
Ps 91:1-4
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Lk 13:34
M
The best way I've found to describe it is this,
As a man you commit a crime and have to go before the judge. The judge knows your guilty of committing this crime and has to pass judgment according to the law. But the Judge is also your father in this case and does not want to see you punished, however to completely ignore the crime would not be justice in the sight of the law. What He can do, is take off the judge outfit; circle around to the other side of the judges podium; becoming equal in the sight of the Law and pay your debt for you as your father. Of course, you need to accept this payment for your debt as well.
Both the judge and your father in this story are the same person taking on different roles in the forgiveness of your crimes. Its why Jesus had to become a mortal man, tempted the same as you or I yet sinless that His life would pay for our own.
Paul referred to Jesus as the visible image of the invisible God
Their are several verses where Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" or "The First and the Last" which are the titles given only to God, here are a few.
Revelation 1 verse 17 - 18, "And when i saw him, i fell at his feet dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying onto me, 'fear not, I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.'"
John 10 verse 30, Jesus says "I and my father are one."
John 8 verse 58, "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am'"
Colossians 1 verse 15, Paul describes Jesus as one "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"
There are more examples also
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
If we believe in Him we also must also believe in what He said and who He said He was which is God , so yes i believe it is necessary for salvation to believe Jesus is also the One true God.
As a man you commit a crime and have to go before the judge. The judge knows your guilty of committing this crime and has to pass judgment according to the law. But the Judge is also your father in this case and does not want to see you punished, however to completely ignore the crime would not be justice in the sight of the law. What He can do, is take off the judge outfit; circle around to the other side of the judges podium; becoming equal in the sight of the Law and pay your debt for you as your father. Of course, you need to accept this payment for your debt as well.
Both the judge and your father in this story are the same person taking on different roles in the forgiveness of your crimes. Its why Jesus had to become a mortal man, tempted the same as you or I yet sinless that His life would pay for our own.
Paul referred to Jesus as the visible image of the invisible God
Their are several verses where Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" or "The First and the Last" which are the titles given only to God, here are a few.
Revelation 1 verse 17 - 18, "And when i saw him, i fell at his feet dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying onto me, 'fear not, I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.'"
John 10 verse 30, Jesus says "I and my father are one."
John 8 verse 58, "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am'"
Colossians 1 verse 15, Paul describes Jesus as one "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"
There are more examples also
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
If we believe in Him we also must also believe in what He said and who He said He was which is God , so yes i believe it is necessary for salvation to believe Jesus is also the One true God.
D
John 8:24 is talking about I am he, the Son of man, which he says in 8:28, when you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know I am he.He also spoke of His Father in the same chapter and we all know that he is not the Father, so the chapter speaks concerning both, His Father and in addition to the Father, Jesus reveals who he is, the Son of man, so we know the Father is not the Son of man, just as we know the Son of man is not the Father.
John 8.24 says, if you do not believe that I AM (no he in the Greek). It is quite clear from the context that He is claiming to be God. I AM was the Name of YHWH
Again He says 'when you have lifted up the son of man you will know that I AM
No He is the Son,
You constantly mix up the Father and the Son. Both are persona within the Godhead. As son of man He was man, as 'the Son' He was God.
It is finally proved by His words 'before Abraham was, I AM'. It is nonsense grammatically. We must clearly go beyond the grammar to Exodus 3. And there we find that He is using the Name of YHWH. He is 'the One Who is', never born, never dying.
And if you do not believe it you WILL die in your sins
Again He says 'when you have lifted up the son of man you will know that I AM
No He is the Son,
You constantly mix up the Father and the Son. Both are persona within the Godhead. As son of man He was man, as 'the Son' He was God.
It is finally proved by His words 'before Abraham was, I AM'. It is nonsense grammatically. We must clearly go beyond the grammar to Exodus 3. And there we find that He is using the Name of YHWH. He is 'the One Who is', never born, never dying.
And if you do not believe it you WILL die in your sins
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but it doesn't say that, it says 'you shall know that I AM'.
I AM was what YHWH revealed Himself to be in Exodus 3. And Jesus used it all through John 8, finishing with that ultimate statement, 'Before Abraham was, I AM," which reveals quite clearly what He was doing.
You can ignore it at your peril. But I am concerned for others more than you, others who are more open to the truth. THEY will know the truth and the truth will make them free.
I AM was what YHWH revealed Himself to be in Exodus 3. And Jesus used it all through John 8, finishing with that ultimate statement, 'Before Abraham was, I AM," which reveals quite clearly what He was doing.
You can ignore it at your peril. But I am concerned for others more than you, others who are more open to the truth. THEY will know the truth and the truth will make them free.
D
You have to read all of John chapter 8 as the chapter gives it's own interpretation of it's self, therefore there is no need to add anything, as the chapter does not back what you say, that's because you pick what you like and throw the rest away, you are clearly not serious about what the chapter says.
Originally Posted by valiant
but it doesn't say that, it says 'you shall know that I AM'.
I AM was what YHWH revealed Himself to be in Exodus 3. And Jesus used it all through John 8, finishing with that ultimate statement, 'Before Abraham was, I AM," which reveals quite clearly what He was doing.
You can ignore it at your peril. But I am concerned for others more than you, others who are more open to the truth. THEY will know the truth and the truth will make them free.
I AM was what YHWH revealed Himself to be in Exodus 3. And Jesus used it all through John 8, finishing with that ultimate statement, 'Before Abraham was, I AM," which reveals quite clearly what He was doing.
You can ignore it at your peril. But I am concerned for others more than you, others who are more open to the truth. THEY will know the truth and the truth will make them free.
You also said this dagallen, "You are writing your own gospel, John chapter 8 makes no such claim." So, can you please tell me what Jesus meant when He said, "Before Abraham was born I am?" And like you said, John is giving his own commentary so there's no need to add anything." Ok then, John gave his commentary on how the Jews reacted to what Jesus said by saying at vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him;" What was the reason the Jews wanted to stone Jesus dagallen? 
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
You also said this dagallen, "You are writing your own gospel, John chapter 8 makes no such claim." So, can you please tell me what Jesus meant when He said, "Before Abraham was born I am?" And like you said, John is giving his own commentary so there's no need to add anything." Ok then, John gave his commentary on how the Jews reacted to what Jesus said by saying at vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him;" What was the reason the Jews wanted to stone Jesus dagallen?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And this is why jaybird, your missing the whole point of what's going on because you are actually proving the point I'm making. Let me illustrate what I'm talking about and believe me I know exactly what your talking about.
What did Jesus Christ say that caused the Jews to want to kill/stone Him on several occasions before His trial? Let's start at John 5:17,18. Jesus said this at vs17, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." The Jews react to this statement at vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD." Did you get that, "Making Himself equal with God."
John 8:58,59, Vs58 Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born I am." How do the Jews react? Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him." Why jaybird?
John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." Vs31, "The Jews took up stone AGAIN to stone Him." Why jaybird? John 19:7, "The Jews answered Him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because he make Himself OUT TO BE THE SON OF GOD." And this is the part you do not understand jaybird, the Son of God part.
To the Jews the Jewish idiom "the son of" has important significance (and they are right about this) because claiming to be the Son of God is equal to being God. Now, I fully realize that in our way of thinking this is not so, but it is true in Jewish thinking and that is why Jesus was accused of blasphemy.
So again, getting back to my original question? What did Jesus say that caused the Jews to want to kill Him? Well at John 5:18 He was calling God His own Father. At John 8:58, He said He existed even before Abraham was born because Jesus said "I am" which is what God said to Moses at Exodus 3:13,14, read it for yourself.
Then at John 10:30 Jesus said He and His Father are one. The Jews knew Jesus was saying that He is one in nature with God the Father. This is why at John 10:33 the Jews say, "You being a man, make Yourself God." Then at the trial of Jesus at Matthew 26:63 the high priest ask Jesus to swear as to His idenity by asking Jesus 2 things, (1) Are you the Christ/Messiah and (2) are you the Son of God? Jesus finally answers and says, "Yes, I am."
In short, claiming to be the Son of God to the Jews (and again I say rightfully so) is claiming to be God. And yes that is a big deal, and no I am not ignoring anything. So, if the Jews don't understand what Jesus was claiming we can't know. The interesting thing in all of this is that you and others don't believe what Jesus said and neither did the Jews and that's why they killed Him. He really was the one and only Son of God. John 3:16.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What did Jesus Christ say that caused the Jews to want to kill/stone Him on several occasions before His trial? Let's start at John 5:17,18. Jesus said this at vs17, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." The Jews react to this statement at vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD." Did you get that, "Making Himself equal with God."
John 8:58,59, Vs58 Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born I am." How do the Jews react? Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him." Why jaybird?
John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." Vs31, "The Jews took up stone AGAIN to stone Him." Why jaybird? John 19:7, "The Jews answered Him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because he make Himself OUT TO BE THE SON OF GOD." And this is the part you do not understand jaybird, the Son of God part.
To the Jews the Jewish idiom "the son of" has important significance (and they are right about this) because claiming to be the Son of God is equal to being God. Now, I fully realize that in our way of thinking this is not so, but it is true in Jewish thinking and that is why Jesus was accused of blasphemy.
So again, getting back to my original question? What did Jesus say that caused the Jews to want to kill Him? Well at John 5:18 He was calling God His own Father. At John 8:58, He said He existed even before Abraham was born because Jesus said "I am" which is what God said to Moses at Exodus 3:13,14, read it for yourself.
Then at John 10:30 Jesus said He and His Father are one. The Jews knew Jesus was saying that He is one in nature with God the Father. This is why at John 10:33 the Jews say, "You being a man, make Yourself God." Then at the trial of Jesus at Matthew 26:63 the high priest ask Jesus to swear as to His idenity by asking Jesus 2 things, (1) Are you the Christ/Messiah and (2) are you the Son of God? Jesus finally answers and says, "Yes, I am."
In short, claiming to be the Son of God to the Jews (and again I say rightfully so) is claiming to be God. And yes that is a big deal, and no I am not ignoring anything. So, if the Jews don't understand what Jesus was claiming we can't know. The interesting thing in all of this is that you and others don't believe what Jesus said and neither did the Jews and that's why they killed Him. He really was the one and only Son of God. John 3:16.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto