The book of Revelation

posthuman · Aug 26, 2017

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3739 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ha[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]what things[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]RelPro-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1163 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δεῖ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]it behoves[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1096 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]genesthai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γενέσθαι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to take place[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ANM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5034 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tachei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τάχει,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]quickness.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

should this meaning be closer to "soon" or "rapidly" ?

i.e. is it speaking of the brevity of time during which the things will take place, or of the brevity of time between when the things are told of and when they come to pass?

or both?

MattforJesus · Aug 26, 2017

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Things that must shortly come to pass,but that does not mean the whole book of Revelation is going to shortly come to pass,but it will shortly start to happen,but will go on for quite a while until it ends at the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We know this did not shortly come to pass,which is when the saints are at the New Jerusalem,the final destination of the saints for eternity,which happens after the millennial reign of Christ.

Things will begin shortly,but will not all happen shortly,but go on for quite a long time until the New Jerusalem,and that is where it will end.

The book of Revelation is a warning to the world to get right with God,for it is the time for God to end this sin business on earth,and put down the world when they rebel against Him,and for the saints to warn the world at that time in hopes they will turn to Jesus,and escape it.

The beast kingdom has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and all who dwell on earth who are not written in the Lamb's book of life will worship the beast,and the 4th beast of Daniel 7,will devour the whole earth,tread it down,and break it in pieces,which the Roman Empire did not do that in the first century,not even the then known world to them that wrote the Bible.

God said He is going to gather all nations against Jerusalem,and the whole earth shall be gathered together against Jerusalem,and Judah,which all nations that were mentioned in the Bible did not go against Jerusalem,but it was the Roman Empire,so not even the then known world,as per the Bible,did not go against Jerusalem.

The second attack on Jerusalem involves the whole world,and it is because God turned the nation of Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which Jesus said,the Jew's house is left unto them desolate until they say,blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and they are blinded in part,until salvation is not available to the Gentiles anymore,which is the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and so all Israel shall be saved,and that is when God cleanses them of their sins,and they accept Jesus as their Messiah.

The Bible plainly states that the beast kingdom in Revelation,and Daniel chapter 7,involves the whole world,and the second attack on Israel is because they accept Jesus as their Messiah,and the beast will persecute all those that hold the testimony of Jesus.

oldhermit · Aug 26, 2017

posthuman said:

"For, the time is at hand" or "the time is near." verse 3
"Near" - ἐγγύς has to be understood in the perception of the hearers since it directly concerned them and their impending experiences. Literally or figuratively, it is used of place or time. In other words, these were events that were near to the recipients in respect to time. These were things that were about to happen to them. How could they be charged to act on events that are 2000 plus years removed from them?

stonesoffire · Aug 26, 2017

Am thinking that the events were for them but for us too. History has a way of repeating itself. We had the dark ages in between...nothing happening for advancement..

Shilo · Aug 26, 2017

stonesoffire said:

11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 1 Peter 1:12It was revealed to them that they were not
serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by
those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even
angels long to look into these things. 13Therefore prepare your minds for
action. Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at
the revelation of Jesus Christ

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

posthuman said:

It can to some extent mean both - let's look at tachos here:

Acts 22:18 and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.’

So was Paul being told to delay, but when the time came he was to take the quickest donkey out of town, or get his ass in gear right now?

Acts 12:7 And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands.

Acts 25:4 Festus then answered that Paul was being kept in custody at Caesarea and that he himself was about to leave shortly.

Did Uncle Festus hang around, sacrifice a few pigs, swill a couple of gals of wine, beat a few slaves and then leave?

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

Another aspect of John's statement is the "time" factor:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time (Greek - kairos) is near.

Strongs

G2540 kairos kahee-ros'

of uncertain affinity;

an occasion, i.e. set or proper time. Compare G5550.

KJV: X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kairos is not just any old time, the Greek has a word for which is "chronos"

Kairos deals with a specific "season" or a "set time", such as the kairos for planting or harvesting or even the Christmas kairos.

This should help understand that the season was near when John wrote.

1 Pet 4:17 For it is time (Greek - kairos) for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Ahwatukee · Aug 26, 2017

Shilo said:

Hello Shilo,

Consider the following regarding the Day of the Lord:

"Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. - Joel 1:15

"Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness!

"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! - Isa.13:6

"The day of the Lord is near for all nations. - Obadiah 1:15

"See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. - Isa.13:9-10 (Compare Matt.24:29-30)

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. - 1 Thes.5:1-2
Joel, Isaiah, Obadiah and Paul, are all speaking about that same day, the day of the Lord, which is not a literal day, but a time period where God will pour out His wrath upon this earth.

Some teach that there are multiple days of the Lord, but it is always referring to the time period that will take place in conjunction with the end of the age. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments referred to in Revelation, is a detailed account of God's wrath in fulfillment of the day of the Lord.

That said, the words "is near" and "coming quickly" is not referring to something that wijll happen next week, next month or next year. It is a statement of imminency and certainty that it will take place.

If you will notice in Isaiah.13:9-10, in reference to the day of the Lord, he prophesies of the same event mentioned in Matt.24:29, which takes place in conjunction with the Lord's immediate return to the earth to end the age, as described below:

"Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven." Matt.24:29-30.

In the margin of my Bible it has the time of Isaiah's writing at 712 BC, which would be close to 800 years from when the same event is mentioned here in Matt.24:29-30. And that event of the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light has still not taken place.

Therefore, these words "is near" and "is coming quickly" and "soon to take place" are words of imminency and certainty that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, will surely take place. What these words do not mean, is that you can set a date as to when the day of the Lord is going to take place, which is obvious because the OT saints, as well as in the NT, continue to speak about the day of the Lord as a still being a future time of wrath. Regarding this, consider the following:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

The "what must soon take place" is referring to the events of wrath and all related information contained from Rev.4 onward, specifically the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which have yet to take place.

The book of Revelation was written 1900 years ago, so how soon is soon, since we have yet to see the events of wrath found in Revelation as yet taking place?

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of imminent:
ready to take place.
-------------------------------------------

adjective

adjective: imminent

1.
about to happen.

Willie-T · Aug 26, 2017

Locutus said:

Unbelievable. Now you are trying to pass off the definition of a word that was never even used.

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

So is "imminencey" not from imminent?

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

Willie-T said:

What and who are you responding to Willie - you lost me here.

Willie-T · Aug 26, 2017

Locutus said:

I included (quoted) his definition (post 29) right there in my own post.

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

Ok, I wasn't clear on that.

I've seen this before, trying to pass off imminence as something other than the dictionary definition by adding "certainty" to it.

Willie-T · Aug 26, 2017

Locutus said:

I am saying that if someone writes the word SOON, I am, in no way, going to swallow some BS that SOON really means "it will happen one of these days", simply because the poster looks up another word that DOES mean "it will happen one of these days", and then goes claiming this second word is what SOON actually should have been written as.

That's a crock and a half of crapola.

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

What's interesting about this dispensational "imminent" statement claim of John's, i.e. it could happen any time, but supposedly 1948 had to happen first, so John's statement only becomes imminent after 1948, so it was not imminent when he wrote the book.

Talk about contradiction.

Ahwatukee · Aug 26, 2017

Willie-T said:

Really? How do you justify the OT prophets claim of the day of the Lord being near and coming soon and then find the same reference to the day of the Lord in the NT as still being future? How do you justify the Lord's claim of the events of Revelation as "the things that must soon take place" which was written 1900 years ago and which have not yet taken place?

Since the day of the Lord was said to be near and coming soon and it has yet to take place, then your only conclusion can be that it doesn't mean what today's understanding of the meaning of these words, but are instead representing imminency and the certainty that it will take place.

The error that arises from this is that, people force the completion of the day of the Lord as already having taken place. Or they come up with the idea that there are multiple days of the Lord, both being false.

As I continue to claim, it is through the cross-referencing and comparing of scripture that leads us to a correct and accurate interpretation. You and others are applying todays thinking regarding the words "is near" and "coming soon." You have tunnel vision, not being able to consider that another meaning is meant for these words. For example through many other scriptures, that "the day of the Lord" is not a day in length, but represents the entire time period of God's wrath. In Rev.3:10, Jesus mentioned the day of the Lord as "the hour of trial," which is not an hour in length.

Your only other choice is to provide a time when the day of the Lord took place in a short period of time after it was said. And being said, there is at least 200 years in between the time that Obadiah and Joel referred to the day of the Lord as being near.

So, what is your interpretation of the day of the Lord being near and coming soon?

Willie-T · Aug 26, 2017

To me, TDOTL falls in the same category as The Kingdom that Jesus told His listeners was "upon them" and "was among them" and that they were actually "IN" at the very moment of His speaking.

Locutus · Aug 26, 2017

Unfortunately Ahtaboy, we've just seen what you tried to do with a simple word like imminent by trying to change it's definition.

As for trying to explain to you such things as the day of the Lord would be a complete waste of effort - that's generally why I rarely respond to your bogus posts.

Willie-T · Aug 26, 2017

Locutus said:

I couldn't have expressed it better.

BTW, since these guys started throwing that word around.... I tried to find "Imminent", "Imminence" or "Immanency" in the Bible... anywhere. But I couldn't find it. Did I miss it, and maybe one of them can direct me to the verse or verses? Maybe I'm misspelling it?

The book of Revelation

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