Preterists - Put up or shutter up

[SovereignGrace]

Actually, it is found in the word where He was to come twice but they didn't see it. So they must have had a tough time trying to make sense of verses that both spoke of him as ruling and as dying.

Where in the bible does it say this? I am not saying is doesn't, but not that I can remember.

So there is precedence in the word that He was to come twice.

Where?

And I see it happening again. In things like...how some verses seem to say the righteous are removed and others that the wicked are removed. I used to read them with such confusion, wondering, well which is it??

If you read the parables Jesus used, it was actually the wicked who were removed first.

Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”[Matt. 13:24-30]

Here the wheat and tares grow together and then at the harvest(resurrection on the last day), the tares are bound and burned and the wheat is gathered into His barn. The tares are the first to be gone.

My confusion mostly left me when I suddenly saw that I was trying to fit together what couldn't be fit together.

Sissy, if you hold to dispensationial premillenialism, I am afraid the confusion has not left you.

Another repeat I see is that He will seemingly come from three different places...AGAIN! From Bozrah with robes stained red, and...hmm...don't remember the other two at this moment...sorry. I can just imagine the arguments they had over where the Messiah would come from! But He proved to come from all three places, just as was foretold!

I know you don't see it and that's okay with me. I see it though. I can't unsee it now that I have seen it. And neither can you see something you just don't see.

Now, I ask this again. Where does it unequivocally, explicitly state the rapture is pre-trib? Where? There's no mentioning of it in Matthew 24, where I showed that His coming in the cloud is after the tribulation of those days. In Matthew 25, there are both goats and sheep standing in judgment. In John 5 there is a call and all that come forth in a general resurrection. In 1 Thess. 4, it says He is coming in the cloud, but there's not one word mentioned about it being before the tribulation. Then in Rev. 4:1, the dispensationial premillenialists take John's being called up to mean that is when the church is raptured. Where does it even allude to such a claim? That eschatological system in chocked full of inferences.

 

[Denadii]

I didn't say that...
I did hear someone say it, but I understood what he meant to say.
But I didn't say it.

Well now that's clear.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Now, I ask this again. Where does it unequivocally, explicitly state the rapture is pre-trib?

Too many Christians like to have their doctrine handed to them on a silver platter and be spoon-fed with a silver spoon. But that is not how it works. What Jesus uneqivocally, explicitly, and clearly stated several times is that His coming for His Bride would be (1) IMMINENT, (2) SUDDEN, (3) UNEXPECTED, AND (4) UNANNOUNCED.

He also gave His people the intelligence to study His Word diligently and see that the Tribulation was for the unbelieving and the ungodly, not for His saints. And then He said "LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED". Since Tribulation is trouble, anyone should be able to put two and two together.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Too many Christians like to have their doctrine handed to them on a silver platter and be spoon-fed with a silver spoon. But that is not how it works. What Jesus uneqivocally, explicitly, and clearly stated several times is that His coming for His Bride would be (1) IMMINENT, (2) SUDDEN, (3) UNEXPECTED, AND (4) UNANNOUNCED.

He also gave His people the intelligence to study His Word diligently and see that the Tribulation was for the unbelieving and the ungodly, not for His saints. And then He said "LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED". Since Tribulation is trouble, anyone should be able to put two and two together.

In other words, a non-answer answer.

In Matthew 24 Jesus said "But immediately after the tribulation of those days", is this not the tribulation period? He then went on to say "and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory." This jives with the parousia of 1 Thess. 4:13-18. He then went on to say "He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect." So here He is saying that His coming in the cloud(both here in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4) is to gather His elect from all over the world. So this jives with 1 Thessalonians 4.

And no, I don't want my doctrine handed to me on a silver platter, but I also don't someone peeing down my leg and telling me its raining either. What I have shown you is that Jesus Himself stated His coming in the cloud is after the tribulation of those days.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Where in the bible does it say this? I am not saying is doesn't, but not that I can remember.


Where?


If you read the parables Jesus used, it was actually the wicked who were removed first.

Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”[Matt. 13:24-30]

Here the wheat and tares grow together and then at the harvest(resurrection on the last day), the tares are bound and burned and the wheat is gathered into His barn. The tares are the first to be gone.



Sissy, if you hold to dispensationial premillenialism, I am afraid the confusion has not left you.



Now, I ask this again. Where does it unequivocally, explicitly state the rapture is pre-trib? Where? There's no mentioning of it in Matthew 24, where I showed that His coming in the cloud is after the tribulation of those days. In Matthew 25, there are both goats and sheep standing in judgment. In John 5 there is a call and all that come forth in a general resurrection. In 1 Thess. 4, it says He is coming in the cloud, but there's not one word mentioned about it being before the tribulation. Then in Rev. 4:1, the dispensationial premillenialists take John's being called up to mean that is when the church is raptured. Where does it even allude to such a claim? That eschatological system in chocked full of inferences.

I don't know how to answer all that at once, to tell you what I meant, so I'll start with your first question.
Where I say He was to come twice...you ask where does it say that. It doesn't! But we know now that some of OT prophecy was speaking of His first coming and was fulfilled when He came and died. And that some of it is yet to be fulfilled and will be fulfilled when He comes again.

And they had confusion over it because they didn't KNOW He was going to come twice! So they were just as confused as we are now, because they had no way to reconcile a verse that said He was coming in vengeance and to rule with a verse that said He would suffer and die. (We understand now that there has been partial fulfillment but can you imagine their confusion, not knowing what we now know?)And we also have no way to reconcile endtime verses that say the wicked will be removed with others that say the righteous will be removed, etc.

So, when you ask, where does it say He was to come twice, the answer is, it doesn't SAY that in the OT! But we NOW know it.

So, as I said, there is precedence in the bible for Him coming twice (once to die and then again to rule.)
And as Ecclesiastes says, He causes things to repeat/happen again and again.

I know you don't agree, but do you at least understand what I am saying?
It never explicitly said He was coming twice in the OT.
So it doesn't explicitly say it in the NT either.

So you are asking for where it explicitly states it. But it can only be seen by studying endtime verses side by side and seeing that they seem to war with each other.

 

[Denadii]

In other words, a non-answer answer.

In Matthew 24 Jesus said "But immediately after the tribulation of those days", is this not the tribulation period? He then went on to say "and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory." This jives with the parousia of 1 Thess. 4:13-18. He then went on to say "He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect." So here He is saying that His coming in the cloud(both here in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4) is to gather His elect from all over the world. So this jives with 1 Thessalonians 4.

And no, I don't want my doctrine handed to me on a silver platter, but I also don't someone peeing down my leg and telling me its raining either. What I have shown you is that Jesus Himself stated His coming in the cloud is after the tribulation of those days.

Well....Maybe you should have your doctrine handed to you. You have it all mixed up here. First Jesus comes to take out His Bride. As you illustrated in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 He catches up his bride who meets Him in the air. His feet do not touch the ground. Nobody sees Him except those caught up.
Second After the tribulation period. He comes with tens of thousands of His saints. Matt 24:30-31
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn,and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]He will send out his angels with a great shofar;[SUP][g][/SUP] and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

His feet touch the ground, everybody sees Him....ONE rapture and the second coming. Don't get them confused because they are not the same event...Roughly seven years separated those events.


:

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well now that's clear.

HAHA! Read post #153. You quoted me where I was explaining the thought that more would come to faith during the tribulation.
And you asked: why would you think the Holy Spirit would be caught up too??

If you read my quote that you boxed and your reply to it, I can't make sense of where you got that me saying: more would come to believe during the tribulation - is translated in your mind to me saying: the Holy Spirit will be caught up!

I said: the thought is that more will come to the faith during the tribulation.
You heard: The Holy Spirit will be caught up.
I have no idea how you translated what I said in that manner...

 

[Locutus]

I see this thread is showing no signs of pretering out....

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where I say He was to come twice...you ask where does it say that. It doesn't!

So, when you ask, where does it say He was to come twice, the answer is, it doesn't SAY that in the OT! But we NOW know it.


It never explicitly said He was coming twice in the OT.

So it doesn't explicitly say it in the NT either.

So you are asking for where it explicitly states it. But it can only be seen by studying endtime verses side by side and seeing that they seem to war with each other.

And this is why, Sissy, I find dispensationial premillenialism untenable. I am afraid you have a pastor, or had a pastor, you thought the world of. He taught this and you thought he would never lead you astray.

I gave you Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus plainly stated that He was returning in the cloud to gather His elect AFTER the tribulation of those days.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, it says He was coming in the cloud with a shout of the archangel and the trumpet of God. These same things He spoke of in Matthew 24. So, AFTER the tribulations of those days, He is coming in the cloud to gather His elect from the four winds(corners) of the earth.

Nowhere can we find the church being raptured prior to the tribulation as in Revelation 4:1, it was John who was called up, not the ekklesia.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And this is why, Sissy, I find dispensationial premillenialism untenable. I am afraid you have a pastor, or had a pastor, you thought the world of. He taught this and you thought he would never lead you astray.

I gave you Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus plainly stated that He was returning in the cloud to gather His elect AFTER the tribulation of those days.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, it says He was coming in the cloud with a shout of the archangel and the trumpet of God. These same things He spoke of in Matthew 24. So, AFTER the tribulations of those days, He is coming in the cloud to gather His elect from the four winds(corners) of the earth.

Nowhere can we find the church being raptured prior to the tribulation as in Revelation 4:1, it was John who was called up, not the ekklesia.

All righty then.

 

[Denadii]

What a person believes or disbelieves is irrelevant when it comes down to it. Your opinion will not change the truth one way or the other...So you might as well line up with the Word and trash your opinions. Right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Denadii,

If you're responding to one of my posts, you're wasting your time. I have you on ignore.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What a person believes or disbelieves is irrelevant when it comes down to it. Your opinion will not change the truth one way or the other...So you might as well line up with the Word and trash your opinions. Right?

I don't think they are just giving opinions. I think they just don't see that some endtime verses seem to war with each other. They are going by what they personally see in scripture, not opinion.

Honestly, I can hear the same kind of arguments in my head that they must have had.

Man #1: The Messiah will come from Bethlehem.
Man#2: No, He will come from Egypt.
Man #3: No, He will come from Nazareth!

Man#1: Well, when He comes, He will restore the kingdom.
Man #2: No, when He comes, He will suffer and die.
Man #3: No, when He comes....etc., etc.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't think they are just giving opinions. I think they just don't see that some endtime verses seem to war with each other. They are going by what they personally see in scripture, not opinion.

Honestly, I can hear the same kind of arguments in my head that they must have had.

Man #1: The Messiah will come from Bethlehem.
Man#2: No, He will come from Egypt.
Man #3: No, He will come from Nazareth!

Man#1: Well, when He comes, He will restore the kingdom.
Man #2: No, when He comes, He will suffer and die.
Man #3: No, when He comes....etc., etc.

I am not giving my opinion but the very words that the Christ said. He said His coming in the cloud is AFTER the tribulation of those days. Those are His words, not mine. Now, its up to your side of the debate to show proof that the parousia is prior to the tribulation.

Its not there in Matthew 24, 25, John 5, or 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am not giving my opinion but the very words that the Christ said. He said His coming in the cloud is AFTER the tribulation of those days. Those are His words, not mine. Now, its up to your side of the debate to show proof that the parousia is prior to the tribulation.

Its not there in Matthew 24, 25, John 5, or 1 Thessalonians 4.

Do you even read what I write...?
I said I did not think they/you were giving opinion...but that you were going by what you truly saw in scripture. You can only go by what you see. That's not giving opinion. That's going by what you see and understand. The opposite of opinion...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you even read what I write...?
I said I did not think they/you were giving opinion...but that you were going by what you truly saw in scripture. You can only go by what you see. That's not giving opinion. That's going by what you see and understand. The opposite of opinion...

Yes I read what you write. I have Denadii on ignore, so I was responding to his post through your post, seeing that you had it quoted for me to see. He said this "So you might as well line up with the Word and trash your opinions. Right?" I was giving the word of God and not my opinion in all of my postings. Denadii is just some internet tough guy who loves drinking his strawberry Nestle Quik in his momma's basement.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am not giving my opinion but the very words that the Christ said. He said His coming in the cloud is AFTER the tribulation of those days. Those are His words, not mine. Now, its up to your side of the debate to show proof that the parousia is prior to the tribulation.

Its not there in Matthew 24, 25, John 5, or 1 Thessalonians 4.

So, did you consider that there are also clouds referred to when the church is gathered? For it states that we who are still alive will be caught up in the clouds with those who will have resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

In Matt.24:30-31, Jesus is arriving on the clouds of the sky to the earth to end the age. At the gathering of the church, we are caught up with the resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

In case you were going to suggest that both scriptures are speaking of the same event, according to scripture that could not be true. Reason being is that, Jesus doesn't return to the earth until after God's wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the Lord's return at the end of the age. In fact scripture shows the Lord descending to the earth to end the age with the church/bride following Him out of heaven. Point being that, in order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

One of the biggest errors by expositors is not discerning the difference between scriptures regarding the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are two separate events, with two different purposes. For example, Matt.24:30-31 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 are not the same events. 1 Thes.4:13-17 is in reference to the gathering of the church before God's wrath, where Matt.24:30-31 is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath.

Do you not think that clouds cannot be involved in both events?

 

[J7]

"..... your vicious little character assassination" M'thinks somebody is a wee bit thin-skinned and sensitive. Where and when did I "assassinate your character?"

I am just tired of the tendency to entropy of the site. I've seen it before. It is ugly. Too many snakes in the grass, too many personal vendettas. There are a few people on the site I like, as they discuss things like Christians, and adults.

Trofimus
Bogadile
TMS
KJV
Tanakh
FollowJesus
StunnedByGrace

and a few others who don't post so regularly

Then there is a species of bottom feeder which seems to feast on trying to degrade the site and denigrate others.

And in between you have a bunch of people who just lack judgement and Christian charity.

Probably best not to mention names, but I am chuckling at the lady who claims to represent the forces of light.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, did you consider that there are also clouds referred to when the church is gathered? For it states that we who are still alive will be caught up in the clouds with those who will have resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

In Matt.24:30-31, Jesus is arriving on the clouds of the sky to the earth to end the age. At the gathering of the church, we are caught up with the resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

In case you were going to suggest that both scriptures are speaking of the same event, according to scripture that could not be true. Reason being is that, Jesus doesn't return to the earth until after God's wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the Lord's return at the end of the age. In fact scripture shows the Lord descending to the earth to end the age with the church/bride following Him out of heaven. Point being that, in order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

One of the biggest errors by expositors is not discerning the difference between scriptures regarding the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are two separate events, with two different purposes. For example, Matt.24:30-31 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 are not the same events. 1 Thes.4:13-17 is in reference to the gathering of the church before God's wrath, where Matt.24:30-31 is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath.

Do you not think that clouds cannot be involved in both events?

Personally? No.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.[1 Thess. 4:13-18]

Now, nowhere in this passage can we find this being a pre-trib rapture. Its just not there. One has to infer this to make it fit.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”[Rev. 4:1]

Nowhere can I find the church being raptured along with John. Its just not there. One has to infer this to make it fit. But there are saints mentioned after John's parousia(if that's a proper usage of that word here) so that shows me the ekklesia is still on earth through the tribulation.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.[Rev. 20:1-3]

Now, we see the angel with a chain, key and dragon. Now, the key is symbolic of authority, meaning he has authority over Satan. The dragon is symbolic of Satan, seeing he's not a literal dragon, as he was also referred to as in Revelation 12. The chain is not a literal chain, either. So, we have a symbolic key, dragon and chain, so we need to look at this symbolically and not literally. Then we're expected to take the 1,000 years and apply it literally?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Now, we see the angel with a chain, key and dragon. Now, the key is symbolic of authority, meaning he has authority over Satan. The dragon is symbolic of Satan, seeing he's not a literal dragon, as he was also referred to as in Revelation 12. The chain is not a literal chain, either. So, we have a symbolic key, dragon and chain, so we need to look at this symbolically and not literally. Then we're expected to take the 1,000 years and apply it literally?

You do error in your conclusion. In Rev.9 we are told that a star, which is symbolic representing and angel, is given the key to the Abyss, which is required to unlock it. Then here in Rev.20:1 we have another angel that also has the key to the Abyss, which is required to lock it back up.

"Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the pit of the abyss. The star opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit."

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete."

So according to both scriptures, a key (whether tangible or spiritual) is required to open and lock the Abyss. Therefore, your assumption that the key is not literal, but only symbolic is false and therefore the rest of your assumption that is based on that is false.

The fact is that, the words "a thousand years" is repeated six times. We are told right in the scripture that Christ will rule during that thousand years and it is this same thousand years that Satan will be locked up in the Abyss. You're always talking about something not being stated directly in the scripture, well right in the scripture it tells you that this time period is a thousand years in duration and you're still not believing it, even thought that is exactly what is written.

Also, if you don't think that clouds can be present in both the gathering of the church and the in the Lord's return, you're not going to get very far with interpreting scripture related to end-time events. You already seem to be following after the false teachings of preterism.