Preterists - Put up or shutter up
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How can the "rapture" be pre-trib when we are taught at the last trump all will be changed, Jesus will return on the clouds with His angels.
Every eye will see Him.....yes, the world really is round so this is something only Yahweh can achieve.
He will send His angels to bring up first those who sleep, and second those who are quick (alive in the flesh) to meet Him.
The words are written, and teh Holy Spirit does affirm them for me. I would not claim to know the exact moment or even year this will occur, the only importance is that I believe God's Word, Jesus Christ. It really is easier to have faith than to attmpt to design an entirely newending to this age, besides, mankind cannot do this.
Every eye will see Him.....yes, the world really is round so this is something only Yahweh can achieve.
He will send His angels to bring up first those who sleep, and second those who are quick (alive in the flesh) to meet Him.
The words are written, and teh Holy Spirit does affirm them for me. I would not claim to know the exact moment or even year this will occur, the only importance is that I believe God's Word, Jesus Christ. It really is easier to have faith than to attmpt to design an entirely newending to this age, besides, mankind cannot do this.
So then...your objection is at those who would say He reigns for 1,000 years exactly in the millennial reign? You would prefer that people said it is just a really long time? 
I can understand what you say here. There are men who have extensively studied it and then there are men who have not. These latter ones can say some pretty crazy things sometimes.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
And a 1,000 hills is a 1,000 hills. God owns the cattle on 1,000 hills. Not 999 hills, not 1,001 hills, but exactly 1,000 hills. Deal with it.
Here's my bone to pick.....
According to the preterist view, we are in the thousand year reign of Christ.
Jesus has already came back.
Jesus is now in full charge.
Where is He?
Why all the wars if Jesus is reigning now? The plagues? earthquakes? Hurricanes?
Now, for the grand finale'..... Where is any of this written in history?
Preterists quote the "church fathers" regularly, yet there's not a single mention of this already happening in their writings.
We quote Josephus for history, but he wrote nothing about it, & he lived thru it.
None of the 1st or 2nd century writers say anything about it!
Now, some questions need to be answered:
When did preterism begin?
It's been said that the rapture theory started in the 17th century, right?
Preterism is said to have started in the 16th century. By a Jesuit. From the RCC.
Before that, there was no such thing.
Since this is the argument for the rapture by preterists as well, it's only fair that this argument also be accepted by the preterists, otherwise, they look like hypocrites for accepting one, & rejecting the other.
That's my 2 cent's worth.
According to the preterist view, we are in the thousand year reign of Christ.
Jesus has already came back.
Jesus is now in full charge.
Where is He?
Why all the wars if Jesus is reigning now? The plagues? earthquakes? Hurricanes?
Now, for the grand finale'..... Where is any of this written in history?
Preterists quote the "church fathers" regularly, yet there's not a single mention of this already happening in their writings.
We quote Josephus for history, but he wrote nothing about it, & he lived thru it.
None of the 1st or 2nd century writers say anything about it!
Now, some questions need to be answered:
When did preterism begin?
It's been said that the rapture theory started in the 17th century, right?
Preterism is said to have started in the 16th century. By a Jesuit. From the RCC.
Before that, there was no such thing.
Since this is the argument for the rapture by preterists as well, it's only fair that this argument also be accepted by the preterists, otherwise, they look like hypocrites for accepting one, & rejecting the other.
That's my 2 cent's worth.
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I can understand what you say here. There are men who have extensively studied it and then there are men who have not. These latter ones can say some pretty crazy things sometimes.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
Regarding people not being able to kill themselves to escape those demonic beings that are commanded to torment the inhabitants with stings like scorpions, I would suggest that God removes the ability for people to die during the 5th trumpet judgement. Death appears to be an active force with an actual entity representing it. As and example of this, both death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment - Rev.20:11-15
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Interpret future prophesy with fulfilled prophesy as precedence, All prophesy before Christ literally was fulfilled. that means all prophesy will be literally fulfilled.
(ie, using historical precedence)
So if a prophesy can not be literally said to have occurred. most likely it has not yet occurred. we should not try to spiritualize it to make it come true, that is calls interpreting the word to fit our belief system. Not using the word to interpret the word.
as for the tribulation argument, No one will know until it happens. Until then, all we can do is try to guess at best, for this reason, no one should be judging another based on what they think, A post trib person should not be judging a pretrib person and vise versa. since neither of you can prove you point beyond a shadow of a doubt.
(ie, using historical precedence)
So if a prophesy can not be literally said to have occurred. most likely it has not yet occurred. we should not try to spiritualize it to make it come true, that is calls interpreting the word to fit our belief system. Not using the word to interpret the word.
as for the tribulation argument, No one will know until it happens. Until then, all we can do is try to guess at best, for this reason, no one should be judging another based on what they think, A post trib person should not be judging a pretrib person and vise versa. since neither of you can prove you point beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus has not yet taken place for if it had we would be able to physically see Him and touch Him. The government will be on His shoulders. Saying that we are now in the millennium is nonsense as it ignores prophecy through-out the bible, especially in the book of Revelation. Adding to your contribution there is now 4 cents total to this topic. It makes perfect sense.
Hey Ahwatukee,
The reason this scripture is so important to them, and you probably know it, is that a literal interpretation of this scripture would collapse their doctrine, for they believe we're already in the thousand year reign of Christ, which in & of itself is a joke, & apparently we've already been it over 2,000 years already.
The reason this scripture is so important to them, and you probably know it, is that a literal interpretation of this scripture would collapse their doctrine, for they believe we're already in the thousand year reign of Christ, which in & of itself is a joke, & apparently we've already been it over 2,000 years already.
I can understand what you say here. There are men who have extensively studied it and then there are men who have not. These latter ones can say some pretty crazy things sometimes.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
I know too, that there are things that in themselves sound nuts in Revelation. The scorpions, the horses, etc. But, I look at Revelation as a book of prophecy and believe that when it says it will all happen just exactly as God said to His prophets, that it will literally happen, even the parts that say things like men will seek to die but won't be able to. Can't figure that one out, but I do believe it. It actually sounds to me like some kind of scientific tampering where men would seek to die and try to kill themselves and not be able to.
I think I see that you think this is too childlike of a faith. And that's okay. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm fine with letting you have your view on it.
oh, man, i'd have to write a book! lol
i am currently studying full preterism (thank you, Locutus for the tools ), but i think amil falls in the partial preterist camp.
basically, the amil position is that most, but not all things are yet fulfilled. from what i've read thus far, that's the major distinction between full and partial. we were raised in dispensational churches, but i can no longer see that view in the Scriptures.
you can call me amil, EG. i'll still like you, and i trust you'll still like me. see how this works, folks? no need to destroy friendships over eschatology.
i am currently studying full preterism (thank you, Locutus for the tools
), but i think amil falls in the partial preterist camp.basically, the amil position is that most, but not all things are yet fulfilled. from what i've read thus far, that's the major distinction between full and partial. we were raised in dispensational churches, but i can no longer see that view in the Scriptures.
you can call me amil, EG. i'll still like you, and i trust you'll still like me. see how this works, folks? no need to destroy friendships over eschatology.