Not By Works

[Meggido]

Jesus is the only hope their is in this lost and broken world, that gets worse everyday, and the legalistic mindset and teaching pushes people away from Christ, not toward him.

The same can be said for over preaching the wrong message of grace....people can hear grace and then see no change and be just as shipwrecked as religion....

The answer is intentional hands on teaching and discipleship of people...get rid of small groups, that really are just fellowship and food events and bring back Sunday school and teach people who they are in Christ and what they have in Christ...and that they are the revival, miracle and move of God for this time....

 

[PHart]

Called, Chosen, Faithful.

Many called but few chosen. Chosen is the sealing done within. Circumcision of the fleshly heart...reborn of Spirit...teaching the faithfulness of God, resulting in our faithfulness.

Give the work of God more credit Phart. He is more powerful in our life than you may think.

We have been given the gifts of Holy Spirit for our edification in the language, and the mission of reconciliation performed through the other giftings.

Pentecost needs to be received that we can go on to glorification.

God's greatness in salvation does not remove man's responsibility to keep believing to the very end to be saved in the very end. We have the greatest of great coaches in the Holy Spirit to encourage us to believe to the very end. I give God all the credit he is due in keeping me believing to this very day (31 years). But his greatness in helping me continue to believe never releases me from the obligation to respond to his encouragement to keep believing, or the danger that I may one day refuse his encouragement to keep believing because of trials and troubles and temptations for this world. God doesn't do my believing for me. He helps me to believe, but he won't do it for me.

 

[loveme1]

But he did give a condition for that sealing until the day of redemption....that you continue to believe (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

You are saved and sealed for the Day of Redemption as long as you are believing. He said the one who is believing is the one who is saved. Not the one who used to believe. Present believing is the condition for remaining sealed until the day of salvation.

And this:

Colossians 1


And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[7seasrekeyed]

and been drowned with the rest.....

well I added that tongue in cheek

but..the truth is unless God is a puppet master, OF COURSE he had a choice

just like all those who ran out of dinghies and drowned

they could have served God but CHOSE not to

I chose to have a sandwich for breakfast. coulda had a V8

 

[7seasrekeyed]

ok we get it....Noah was a Calvinist before Calvin was born....

........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you confuse things greatly...

I think you confuse things greatly (it goes both ways)

Those that Love Him Keep His sayings... so they live by Faith. Having been saved by GOD's Grace through Faith in His Son.

Which is what I said to begin with. So again, why are you confusing things?

They continue to believe to the saving of their soul.. it is a race... He loves us so we love Him... And walk behind the Good Shepherd on the path of Righteousness.

Yep, because they had true faith, Which again what I said to begin with, so why are you confused about what I believe?

The Psalm is valid for this thread... it is affirming the Truth.


Some started to believe but then were being bewitched by those who despised the New Testament because they believed not the Messiah's Testimony... and tried to insist they were circumcised and keep the law of Moses and not continue in the law of Faith.


But if you confuse this with those who believe we are to obey the Messiah's instructions then you misuse the verses..

If you ad obedience as a means to gain or maintain salvation, Your adding to the grace of God.(which is what Paul was addressing in Galatians) and this thread is against you

If on the other hand, You are trying to show How gods people obey, That is talking about sanctification or christian growth, and is for another thread.

 

[loveme1]

Romans 11

7And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in hisgoodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[stonesoffire]

...But if we deny Him he will deny us.
There's a difference between being foolishly faithless within your believing, and departing from the faith altogether in an open denial of and departure from Christ. Christ has you covered in the former, because you still believe in Him. But if you deny Him in unbelief you no longer belong to Him that he should have some kind of obligation to remain faithful to you as if you were still a part of His body.




I think you are probably trying distinguish between our believing/ trusting, and the power of faith within us that God gave us as a free gift to make it so we can then believe and trust on Him.

Faith is the supernatural ability to know something is true that you can't know is true in and of yourself (Hebrews 11:1). That is a gift of God. If we choose to embrace that which God has shown us to be true through the gift of faith we respond with our believing/trusting.

It is our trusting/believing that solicits justification/salvation. Simply being shown that the gospel is true through God's gift of faith can't save you until you receive it and place your trust in it. It's the difference between having the ability to believe through the gift of faith, and then believing what you now know to be true. The believing part is what solicits God's favor in salvation. We can't boast in that believing because he gave the power of faith to us to know the gospel was really true in the first place.

If you would speak more out of the scriptures with the understanding of what is happening..I might agree. You give a lot of your own thinking which tells me you need to renew your mind to the Word.

Faith is a gift. It's a supernatural substance that has power in the Spiritual realm. How it works? Who knows...we just know it grows with experience and we realize God means what He says and does what He says He will do.

And it's given by measure to each of us. What we do with it has to do with our growth and how fast we grow. God has a timing for us all. Our unity though is in the Passover experience of the new birth.

Let's all encourage the babes to grow by the work of Holy Spirit, the young men to grow by the work of Holy Spirit, and give the fathers much respect, honor, and allow them space to express the will of God.

5 fold ministry should be in every fellowship. The mainstream churches are at fault. Pentecostals relish their experiences over truth...not all...and those who are doing the greater works? Kudos to them! lol

 

[loveme1]

I think you confuse things greatly (it goes both ways)


Which is what I said to begin with. So again, why are you confusing things?



Yep, because they had true faith, Which again what I said to begin with, so why are you confused about what I believe?



If you ad obedience as a means to gain or maintain salvation, Your adding to the grace of God.(which is what Paul was addressing in Galatians) and this thread is against you

If on the other hand, You are trying to show How gods people obey, That is talking about sanctification or christian growth, and is for another thread.

Paul is Teaching people not to be entangled with those of circumcision..

He is pleading that they remain Faithful to the New Testament... teaching the Law of Faith v Law of works...

Nothing about obeying the Good Shepherd was adding to Grace... nope.. Because we are set at Liberty under Grace to love and obey...

im in the correct thread...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But he did give a condition for that sealing until the day of redemption....that you continue to believe (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

1 cor 15 has nothing to do with eph 1, Nice try.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Only one condition, Trust after you hear the word. Thats all.

what is the gift, WE SEALED (aorist tense)

all 1 cor 15 says is if you believed in vein, ie, mere belief vs true living faith. and doe not contradict what Paul said in eph 1.

it is a mistake to assume all people in church are saved.

You are saved and sealed for the Day of Redemption as long as you are believing. He said the one who is believing is the one who is saved. Not the one who used to believe. Present believing is the condition for remaining sealed until the day of salvation.

Nope. if this was true, Paul would have let the Ephesian church know that the moment he wrote it. Otherwise, he left alot of people without the whole truth, who may have died having never ready the letter to corinth.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Amen

I am still waiting for the verse which showed Peter going t Jesus and asking for forgiveness. So he could get his salvation back.

Jesus restored Peter when He asked him 3 times if Peter loved him

scene at the beach, after the resurrection

saving faith is not simply believing as some indicate

many believe, not all are saved

if even the devil and his angels believe, that should be enough to logically grab that truth and apply it

 

[gb9]

The same can be said for over preaching the wrong message of grace....people can hear grace and then see no change and be just as shipwrecked as religion....

The answer is intentional hands on teaching and discipleship of people...get rid of small groups, that really are just fellowship and food events and bring back Sunday school and teach people who they are in Christ and what they have in Christ...and that they are the revival, miracle and move of God for this time....

if you tell the truth, and others receive it incorrectly , that is on them.

I have personally heard pastors say they have " housekeeping " and " keep 'em in line " messages on file to keep their folks on the straight and narrow.

do you these wasteful " sacred straight " are helpful or useful. or should truth be told. saved by grace, not good behavior.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are you saying they're going to Hell?

It's something that "you" can get saved by simply accepting Christ & do absolutely nothing else, & "we" repent of our sins, accept Christ as Savior & Lord, & still go to Hell because we "try" & "strive" to keep the commands of Jesus?!?

I can't even

how do people believe that Jesus words do not have the import before His death that Paul's words after his conversion do?

Jesus shows up from the beginning of Genesis to the last words of John's Revelation

and I cannot wrap my head around anyone saying or believing that HE is not the main topic no matter what book of the Bible someone considers

there is no understanding in some teaching

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is Teaching people not to be entangled with those of circumcision..

He is pleading that they remain Faithful to the New Testament... teaching the Law of Faith v Law of works...

Nothing about obeying the Good Shepherd was adding to Grace... nope.. Because we are set at Liberty under Grace to love and obey...

im in the correct thread...

Paul is speaking about adding law to grace. It goes for any law, not just one law.

As she said in Gal 1, If anyone teaches a gospel other that what he taught, they are to be accursed.

He always taught a gospel of grace through faith apart from works, and that those who are saved WILL show or have works, Works of any kind Any one who adds works to grace teaches a different gospel. plain and simple.

as he said to titus Not by works of righteousness (any good deed) we have done, but by his mercy. He saved us,

No works period. Changing the name of a work or type does not help, that is just a ruse of satan to try to trick others into the same legalism with a different name.

 

[Zmouth]

Here is a scripture that if we take God at His word - we will all be in trouble.

FYI: man (male or female) doth not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Here is a scripture that says that if anyone who has ever sinned against God will be blotted out of the book. This means that all of us have been blotted out of God's book for who has not ever sinned? No one.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Ps 119:89

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Proverbs 8:33-36

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus restored Peter when He asked him 3 times if Peter loved him

scene at the beach, after the resurrection

saving faith is not simply believing as some indicate

many believe, not all are saved

if even the devil and his angels believe, that should be enough to logically grab that truth and apply it

Peter was restored before Jesus said one word to him on the beach, The mere fact peter w there to begin with ws because he was forgiven. Jesus went to get them remember. .

All Jesus did was give peter the confidence he needed to go do what God needed peter to do.

Your right, many believe, not all are saved, we are saved by true saving faith, Not mere belief Even demons believe yet tremble.

As Jesus said in John 6, Peter was included with the group of those who believed. Not the group of people who di dnot believe (which Judas was included in that group)

 

[Magenta]

Now small fellowship groups are being condemned? Unbelievable.

 

[loveme1]

Paul is speaking about adding law to grace. It goes for any law, not just one law.

As she said in Gal 1, If anyone teaches a gospel other that what he taught, they are to be accursed.

He always taught a gospel of grace through faith apart from works, and that those who are saved WILL show or have works, Works of any kind Any one who adds works to grace teaches a different gospel. plain and simple.

as he said to titus Not by works of righteousness (any good deed) we have done, but by his mercy. He saved us,

No works period. Changing the name of a work or type does not help, that is just a ruse of satan to try to trick others into the same legalism with a different name.

What other law is there?

Paul taught the New Covenant in place of the Old...

Paul is in no way saying.. those of you loving your neighbour and GOD have fallen from Grace... No.. He is saying those who lose Faith in the New Testament believing they need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses are in error...

They are not believing to the saving of their soul but being bewitched to believe works will save them.


Nothing done not in Faith is relevant....

 

[BillG]

The main reason the flame is gone is because most churches , home based or otherwise, preach agaisnt things and not for things...there is no discipleship and teaching people who they are in Christ and what they have available to them in Christ...

Eph 1.3-

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

I think part of the issue that most in the church either

Do not feel worthy or called to preach Christ.
If that's the case that is what church leaders and evangeslists are meant to do.

Sometimes when I sit on our church a lot of theology can be taught. Not everyone is theologically minded and it goes over their head. When I led a midweek group it wasn't unusual to hear people say "I didn't get that"
At times the theology taught is then expanded as to how we can apply it in our lives.
I am not saying teaching theology is wrong, in fact I like it.
But I would say that maybe there should be classes so if people want to go to they can.

We have an affiliate evangelist who preaches at our church.
He hardly delves past the Gospels. He preaches Jesus. When I first heard him preach it was so refreshing.

As for me I am not a church leader, I am not an evangelist like our affiliate but I have been called to be a minister of the Gospel of Jesus, whether it be in my workplace or on holiday or wherever I am.

To be honest I am not the type of person who sidles up to someone and then say "Repent or burn, or are you washed in the blood of the lamb"

I have just returned from holiday. The same place we have been to for the last 8 years.
The family joke is "I wonder how many people dad will pray for this year" bets were made.

Now this may offend some but late afternoon I would go for a beer, sit outside with it and have a cigar.
Conversations would be struck up over a period of days. The amount of people that would open up was amazing.
Quite a few times I wouldn't even have to offer to pray I would be asked to pray. In fact I had one family seek me out for prayer.
We saw them 4 years on the trot and each time they sought me out.

Now the reason I am saying the above is because, I never felt worthy to be/show the gospel as such to others.
I was so centred trying to please God rather than realising who I am in Christ and then allowing people to see this.

One thing that really helped me was the 'Freedom in Christ course' I don't necessarily agree with all of it but it started to set me free.

All of us are called to be ministers of the Gospel.
We are worthy because God has called us to do it. Jesus commanded it.
In a sense to me he says "Now you no what it is, who you are in me get out there and show it"

Just my limited thoughts

 

[Magenta]

I guess some people prefer the huge mega churches, which is certainly attested to by the mere fact of their existence. It is easier to go unnoticed and unchecked there, that's for sure. In small fellowship groups, people get to know each other much more intimately, reading the Word of God and sharing their concerns as it relates to God's Word, praying for each other, and yes, *gasp* even breaking bread together. Jesus started with a small group