Not By Works

[PHart]

Here is a dilemma for them. They say "keeping on believing is not a work."

Believing is not a work of the law.
It's important that you get the argument straight.

Paul never said the 'work' of believing was a work that could not justify. In fact, he said it is the only thing that can, but now we have the church insisting that believing is a work of self righteousness. The 'work' of believing is CONTRASTED with works of the law, not equated with them as so many are doing in this thread.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I swear it was like 1990 and I woke up this morning and the calendar said 2017!

The year 2000 used to seem like a far fetched year that would never come.

Psalm 144;
4 Man is like a breath;
His days are like a passing shadow.

You can fnd toys I loved as a kid in an antique shop now.

 

[mailmandan]

I swear it was like 1990 and I woke up this morning and the calendar said 2017!

The year 2000 used to seem like a far fetched year that would never come.

Psalm 144;
4 Man is like a breath;
His days are like a passing shadow.

I'll never forget when the year 2000 was approaching and all the Y2K hype! Many people were paranoid and certain TV preachers (like Jack Van Impe) were having a field day trying to scare everyone.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I swear it was like 1990 and I woke up this morning and the calendar said 2017!

The year 2000 used to seem like a far fetched year that would never come.

Psalm 144;
[FONT=&quot]4 Man is like a breath;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His days are like a passing shadow.[/FONT]

i was bald

out of shape

missing teeth

and had a double chin back in 1990

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Believing is not a work of the law.
It's important that you get the argument straight.

Paul never said the 'work' of believing was a work that could not justify. In fact, he said it is the only thing that can, but now we have the church insisting that believing is a work of self righteousness. The 'work' of believing is CONTRASTED with works of the law, not equated with them as so many are doing in this thread.

And because it is not a work of He law it means t is ok to work to earn salvation?

a work is still a work, you work to earn a wage, rom 4 makes it clear, even Abraham was not saved because of his works, but by his faith,

jesus said belief was the work of God. Can we trust Jesus?

 

[PennEd]

i was bald

out of shape

missing teeth

and had a double chin back in 1990

LOL!


That's awesome brother!

 

[PHart]

And because it is not a work of He law it means t is ok to work to earn salvation?

It means it's okay to 'believe' to secure salvation as a free gift, and that believing is not a work of self righteousness.

a work is still a work, you work to earn a wage...

Then you must believe that Jesus was telling us to work the work of believing to earn salvation.

...rom 4 makes it clear, even Abraham was not saved because of his works, but by his faith...

But you just got done pointing out that believing was a work. And that work is still a work that earns a wage. Why are you now contradicting what you just said?

jesus said belief was the work of God. Can we trust Jesus?

He said believing is the work that we are to do:

"28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God (that you are to do--see vs.28), that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”" (John 6:28-29 NASB)

 

[PHart]

Lots of bags under some ppl's eyes, seeing they couldn't sleep, afraid they may lose their faith in their sleep.

Keep working my friends.

How does one stop believing in their sleep? Wouldn't it rather happen during the day when you say, "I don't care about the forgiveness of God that I have anymore", and because you no longer believe in or care about your salvation you flip on 'Game of Thrones'? That's a more realistic picture of how one would lose the forgiveness of God he has in Christ. He tramples on it in a contemptuous, unbelieving, willful return to the world. That's kind of hard to do at night while you're sleeping.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It means it's okay to 'believe' to secure salvation as a free gift, and that believing is not a work of self righteousness.

thats not true, baptism is not a work of the law, yet if done to earn salvation, it is a work of self righteousness,

any work done to earn something from r self is a work of self righteousness, it does not have to be a work of the law to be determined a work of righteousness.

Then you must believe that Jesus was telling us to work the work of believing to earn salvation.

Jesus called our faith his work, so again, you would be mistaken.

But you just got done pointing out that believing was a work. And that work is still a work that earns a wage. Why are you now contradicting what you just said?

Smh, Jesus said if Abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God, for what does the scripture say, Abraham believed and it was accounted as righteousness,

For if one is found by work, the wage is not counted as GRACE but as debt.

your arguing with God, if belief is done to earn or maintain a wage (in your case the wage is salvation) it is. It counted as grace but as debt.

He said it is the work that we are to do:

"28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God (that you are to do--see vs.28), that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”" (John 6:28-29 NASB)

what part of the work of God do you not understand? It is God who works in you, he is the author and finisher of your faith, you have no power in it, you did not start it, you did not bring it to completion, give god credit for once!

Your implying the work of God to yourself, that's dangerous man, Gods work will not fail, that's why your forced to make it your work. So you can use it for your own benefit.

 

[stonesoffire]

No let us stay in this thread....

They are my beliefs and I have shared freely.. the post is for whoever receives or refuses... make it not about you and I always my dear.

Again, this is a discussion forum. Not supposed to be your teaching forum. Why not discuss what you believe and back it with the scriptures?

 

[stonesoffire]

LOL!


That's awesome brother!

and some of us have reverted back to our former images. lol Cute baby pic PennED..

Oh, sorry, I mean McGee...missed your post.

 

[loveme1]

Again, this is a discussion forum. Not supposed to be your teaching forum. Why not discuss what you believe and back it with the scriptures?

I consider i do that stones and my preference to not engage with eg is based on better judgement.

I recall you telling me I was going on ignore.. and I don't wish to add anyone to my ignore list but can not always be drawn in by eg.. it is often futile leading to upset.. and I really do not come here to have daily back and forth with eg..

My observation were presented in the post and my beliefs presented to those who may receive... or refuse.

 

[loveme1]

How does one stop believing in their sleep? Wouldn't it rather happen during the day when you say, "I don't care about the forgiveness of God that I have anymore", and because you no longer believe in or care about your salvation you flip on 'Game of Thrones'? That's a more realistic picture of how one would lose the forgiveness of God he has in Christ. He tramples on it in a contemptuous, unbelieving, willful return to the world. That's kind of hard to do at night while you're sleeping.

Hebrews 12



14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.




This came to mind while reading your post P Hart.

 

[Meggido]

There are times when I feel like a hypocrite posting certain scriptures, and I just don't post anything. Maybe others feel the same way? Or is it just me?

So it's hard to believe some embrace sinless perfectionism. Unless of course they're not getting any convictions at all, in which case they're in the same group as the lost. There is a scripture in 1 John that says if we say we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And who would be the "some" doing this?

I am not a sinner....I am a sin-forgiven saint that will and still does sin...if someone says that and you think they are advocating sinless perfection.....they are not...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have, they State they can lose salvation. The s they are boasting of their works being better than other people works. They consistently judge others, the continue to talk about sin, and not God and his Great Salvation

This...gives me a little more understanding of how you seem to see a person is trying to earn their place with our Lord when I don't see it.

She said she hasn't seen any boast their works save them.
You replied: I have, they say salvation could be lost.

So when you hear a man think and say that he believes it is a possibility to be cut off if his heart becomes evil and unbelieving, you immediately hear boasting in works to earn (or keep) their place with our Lord.

So they see a warning that the very thought of is so awful to them, and it causes them to listen carefully when the Spirit points out unbeliefs or mistrusts where they aren't fully in faith. It leads them to struggles, but they are good and proper struggles, to grow in trust/faith. This is how He leads some of us.

But He appears to have led you differently thus far. So what another man sees as a warning for himself (that brings him to the good work of struggles that bring growing trust/faith), you don't see as a warning for yourself as they do. But it doesn't mean either man is wrong. It could mean he hasn't brought you there yet. It could mean you have far surpassed us for all I know. It's difficult to say because each of us has our fears and strongholds against perfect trust and so He doesn't raise each of us in a...linear fashion that could be written in a book such as books about raising a baby sometimes are.

If a man reads that he is to be careful that his heart does not become evil and unbelieving as with Israel in the desert and that their branches were cut off so he could be grafted in, so he must not become arrogant, and it causes his faith to consistently grow to see and heed that warning, I think you shouldn't hinder he and God by demanding they must be where you are and think what you think.

If a man sees those verses differently than you do, and he thinks they are warnings for him, and so he truly believes that Israel was cut off for subsequent unbelief in the desert, it does not mean he is going out to soup kitchens to work thinking this will save him. (This could be possible that he does this, but sometimes he is really just in the process with God of growing his mustard seed of trust and taking areas of mistrust, or less than full trust, very seriously).

This is why Jesus didn't say: you will know them by their doctrine. (This would be impossible if all are at a different place with our Lord!)
Instead He said: You will know them by their fruit (growing love, patience, longsuffering, etc.)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

i was bald

out of shape

missing teeth

and had a double chin back in 1990

Wow, you haven't changed a bit!
(just kidding)

 

[Meggido]

There are a mix of wheat and tares in the churches.

Connection to this scripture...

1 John 2:19-21: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you (believers) have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth"

The parable of the wheat and the tares is not at all rightly divided with 1 John 2.19-21

Are you trying to tell people that the field in the parable of the wheat and the tares is the Church/Kingdom of God?

Matt 13.24-30

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. [SUP]27 [/SUP]The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ [SUP]28 [/SUP]And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”


Matt 13.36-40


[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, [SUP]38 [/SUP]and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; [SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.



Why would you state the church or the kingdom of heaven is the field, when Jesus said the world was the field?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This...gives me a little more understanding of how you seem to see a person is trying to earn their place with our Lord when I don't see it.

She said she hasn't seen any boast their works save them.
You replied: I have, they say salvation could be lost.

So when you hear a man think and say that he believes it is a possibility to be cut off if his heart becomes evil and unbelieving, you immediately hear boasting in works to earn (or keep) their place with our Lord.

So they see a warning that the very thought of is so awful to them, and it causes them to listen carefully when the Spirit points out unbeliefs or mistrusts where they aren't fully in faith. It leads them to struggles, but they are good and proper struggles, to grow in trust/faith. This is how He leads some of us.

But He appears to have led you differently thus far. So what another man sees as a warning for himself (that brings him to the good work of struggles that bring growing trust/faith), you don't see as a warning for yourself as they do. But it doesn't mean either man is wrong. It could mean he hasn't brought you there yet. It could mean you have far surpassed us for all I know. It's difficult to say because each of us has our fears and strongholds against perfect trust and so He doesn't raise each of us in a...linear fashion that could be written in a book such as books about raising a baby sometimes are.

If a man reads that he is to be careful that his heart does not become evil and unbelieving as with Israel in the desert and that their branches were cut off so he could be grafted in, so he must not become arrogant, and it causes his faith to consistently grow to see and heed that warning, I think you shouldn't hinder he and God by demanding they must be where you are and think what you think.

If a man sees those verses differently than you do, and he thinks they are warnings for him, and so he truly believes that Israel was cut off for subsequent unbelief in the desert, it does not mean he is going out to soup kitchens to work thinking this will save him. (This could be possible that he does this, but sometimes he is really just in the process with God of growing his mustard seed of trust and taking areas of mistrust, or less than full trust, very seriously).

This is why Jesus didn't say: you will know them by their doctrine. (This would be impossible if all are at a different place with our Lord!)
Instead He said: You will know them by their fruit (growing love, patience, longsuffering, etc.)

let me try to explain, I do not seem to be making myself clear

1. I do not think Gods warnings are about losing salvation, if they do, that is on them, and it is an open chat room, I am aloud to make mumdisagreements known, and should not be attacked as I am by so many people because I chose to share my disagreement, it is getting out of hand so many people think I am attacking them simply by stating m belief,
as for what. Think God said, I think it is warning people who have yet to make a decision to make it, but are in a church and an active part of the assembly of people there, and not depart from it(fall away)
2. God said he has perfected forever, it says he will complete the work he started, he said whoever trusts him will recieve many things, some of which are eternal (neverending) life, adoption as sons, a spirit of adoption not fear, a promise that they will be kept from Gods wrath to come, a promise that everything that was against them contrary to them and nailed them to th cross so they could never again be used against them, the seal of the spirit, he will never lose anyone, he will never let them go, he will go out of his way to fetch a child who gets lost, and carry them back to where they belong, n one, (I am someone, so that includes me) will be able to snatch me from his hands, (I can go on and on and on)
3. God said through the apostle john that whoever was a part of the church, and becomes evil and unbelieving, that that person was never a part of the church, and the fact they left prove it, because if they were part of the CHURCH they would NEVER LEAVE,
4. God says those born of God do not sin, obey his commands, produce fruit, are loved by him, thus love him and others, used to be sinners, but have been washed sanctified and justified, thus even though they still sin, they are not classified as sinners, but as washed children. And those who live in sin have never seen god, not have they ever known him
5. in my view, anyone who claims one can lose or walk away from salvation basically states all these things are not true, and to me, and my God, that is quite offensive for one, but also, in my view, he wants them to repent, and take his promises as gospel truth, and base their eternity on those things, and not the lack of faith hey are showing by not focusing on Gods promises, but claiming they might be true, but are not assured, based on what the do or do not do (i.e., they must earn those promises, they are not freely given by Grace)

Are there still any questions? I want to make sure people know what I believe..and why I share what I do.

 

[Magenta]

Scripture confirms the heart condition of those who fall away, in that they are not saved. Specifically, Jude confirms that apostates are those who don't have the Spirit.

The world's definition of apostates is different to the biblical definition, which is why some have this wrong belief that apostates were once believers. But Jude confirms apostates never had the Holy Spirit, so right there is confirmation of the truth. If you read the entire chapter it says much about non believers.

Amen. I did just read it now, thank you

This is what we have been saying all along:
those who fall away were not true believers.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes sir I agree, it's like if a person is close to a edge of cliff, am I going to talk nice and sweat to them or yell and scream at them, I choose the latter it gets the persons attention to walk way from the edge. And that's out of Love for them.

Hmm...I've only seen this in movies, so I don't know how accurate they are, but in movies, the person sent up to talk someone off a tall building or bridge or cliff they are contemplating jumping from, they don't yell, scream, or make any loud noises...yes, I'm aware this isn't a movie. But in real life, I have seen parents yell and scream and it just builds up stubbornness and then when a child is 18 and has a car, they rebel strongly.