Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
You throw out grace like its the subject.. you can count and hope if you want... Faith and walking with Christ produces .. if you have nothing you're doing nothing but reading.. hearer only
It seems to me that HisHolly is trying to misapply James.

James says that the good works that God does through us as a result of our faith are evidence of our faith.

HisHolly is looking for works as evidence of faith before God works.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,787
26,640
113
My friend, you are reading in what is not there.
People I was referring to is the world. It is a theme you see everywhere, we are ok, how dare
you suggest we have unmet needs, or need help, or to claim you have something of value.

And this theme is in the church as well. To walk with Christ is always change and challenge,
it is the nature of love. God bless you.
I read what you said, not what wasn't there. Now you say the idea of not needing to do anything is in the church as well, while saying you mean unbelievers. The church is made up of believers. What church teaches no need for repentance and belief in Jesus? Are you referring to non Christian churches? Do you know that some of the so-called churches explicitly acknowledge that they are not for believers? Is that the type of church you mean?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,090
191
63

Philippians 2
12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 17Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 18For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.





what have they always obeyed?

Why are they instructed to work out their own Salvation with fear and trembling?

Hold forth the word of life?


Was their not a one off moment for these people?

Was it an ongoing belief? I believe so.

Why write such such things to believers?

I believe it is to encourage them to remain Faithful and not to be highminded.


These people were beloved and were obeying.

So so they were believers being encouraged to keep obeying the Truth.








 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
I read what you said, not what wasn't there. Now you say the idea of not needing to do anything is in the church as well, while saying you mean unbelievers. The church is made up of believers. What church teaches no need for repentance and belief in Jesus? Are you referring to non Christian churches? Do you know that some of the so-called churches explicitly acknowledge that they are not for believers? Is that the type of church you mean?
Mag - You are right, the church is the place where believers meet, or groups who claim
to know Christ or follow His ways.

There are many approaches that people bring over into faith, because we are a work in
transition. It is why lifestyles take time to change, family histories to be healed and worked
through, relationships to be seen in the context of the Kingdom and not just power politics.

The biggest area is being defensive, to create stability rather than working things through.
It takes time and effort to work things through and is always a challenge because it means
we change as a result as well. But in a loving environment this is not a problem.

Paul put it like this, I have become content with much and with little.

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Phil 4:12

This is always a challenge, because often stress and insecurity are our foes, rather than
things that empower us and push us on.

If we see each day as a gift from the Lord, not something to expect or deserve, then maybe
we get a better perspective. On the other side is the Kingdom of heaven, but today a privilege
to serve and help in the building and witness of the body, Amen.
 
Aug 27, 2017
521
9
0
Psalm 139

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts![c]
24 And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting![d]

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

(ESV)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,873
6,392
113
Mag - You are right, the church is the place where believers meet, or groups who claim
to know Christ or follow His ways.

There are many approaches that people bring over into faith, because we are a work in
transition. It is why lifestyles take time to change, family histories to be healed and worked
through, relationships to be seen in the context of the Kingdom and not just power politics.

The biggest area is being defensive, to create stability rather than working things through.
It takes time and effort to work things through and is always a challenge because it means
we change as a result as well. But in a loving environment this is not a problem.

Paul put it like this, I have become content with much and with little.

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Phil 4:12

This is always a challenge, because often stress and insecurity are our foes, rather than
things that empower us and push us on.

If we see each day as a gift from the Lord, not something to expect or deserve, then maybe
we get a better perspective. On the other side is the Kingdom of heaven, but today a privilege
to serve and help in the building and witness of the body, Amen.
peter............ I agree with this. good points.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
My friend, you are reading in what is not there.
People I was referring to is the world. It is a theme you see everywhere, we are ok, how dare
you suggest we have unmet needs, or need help, or to claim you have something of value.

And this theme is in the church as well. To walk with Christ is always change and challenge,
it is the nature of love. God bless you.

Being loved by others does not mean a person has been born again through God's supernatural love .Its not natural love . Do this and have eternal life.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,907
4,349
113
Blows one mind when Jesus comes thru hey....I was sitting one day about 20 years ago, at a particularly low moment financially, all bills due, had switched jobs and had a two week waiting period before a check, upset, about in tears and owing way more than I had coming in.....the door bell rang and I answered and it was the mailman with a registered letter and I thought oh great probably a bill collector or getting sued for something....of course I had been praying, upset and feeling left out in the cold by God wondering why......I opened the letter and it was a letter from my great grandparents who I had not heard from in 12 years and they were getting their house in order and giving all the grandkids a check for $10,000.........I stared at the check, shocked and began to weep and I could hear God saying....oh ye of little faith!!
I should have read your post later.
I am sat here outside having my lunchtime coffee and read your post.
i have now had to put a pair of sunglasses on and it's not even sunny.
I don't want people to see my welling up eyes.

Thanks for sharing the above. It has bought a joy to my heart.

God is good.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
The battle is over when we walk in Love: walking into Love. We are still on the Journey, entering into God, There is a labour to enter into His rest, and put away our divided spirit. Divided within ourselves and from one another. "Love is the fulfilment of the Law." Against Love there is no Law." The Law was work, until entered into His rest, where work is no longer work; like the first year of marriage, relationship is effortless, of it's own accord to become one.
"There is no fear in Love." "The fear of God having it's rightful place in admiration worship in His Love; there is no place for other fears when we continue in prayer: to enter in. The wilderness experience: to come to the end of ourselves and value entering in more than a life for ourselves. All of us know this is the work of God, that's why we are Christians, we are called to work along side, or is it inside (may depend on maturity), as labourers together with God. Carried by the Holy Spirit, no mater what different understanding or language saying the same thing differently: to Learn of Him, to be tamed by God as friends and have His Humility, required to go on to perfection and be found in Him, not having our own righteousness, but in worship admiration of God get past arguments.
Over a month ago the Lord told me disarm the enemy. I understood, the enemy in my own life, and the enemy in the world where we communicate in giving and receiving: includes here. Jesus disarmed the enemy, Now has all authority, and as we walk in Love we have His authority. In the parable that Jesus said to His servants, "Occupy until I come," the hidden meaning is: Left in charge, the meaning of Lieutenant, a French word that means hold the fort. A favorite verse describing His will, "In everything give thanks, pray without ceasing, rejoice evermore, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Its obvious that quarrels distract us, "Only by pride comes contention, and pride of achievement is dead work. The enemy plan is to cause division. God plans for us to remain standing praying and has Given us His Spirit to enable us: to continue in Love and not be offended. May The Lord be pleased as we forget what's behind, to go on and carry us into perfection Amen.
I understand what you are saying here and yes love is the ultimate goal and a process of growth and maturity.....however....I have one issue and it is with the bolded.....I cannot get past the seemingly contradictory statement about the bolded above and what the following verse has to state...

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
If one has no root, they are not connected to the True Vine and therefore cannot be considered saved.
AMEN.....and when he states, "I never knew them" means exactly that....they were never saved to begin with....same rings true with your point.....those mentioned in the truth and called the MANY (plenteous in number) that come before the throne and are subsequently rejected and cast have placed their faith, trust and emphasis upon a works based salvation......they were never in the root and the whole premise goes to their professed knowledge of Jesus and foundation which was in error to begin with..........HE NEVER KNEW THEM!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113

Philippians 2
12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 17Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 18For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.





what have they always obeyed?

Why are they instructed to work out their own Salvation with fear and trembling?

Hold forth the word of life?


Was their not a one off moment for these people?

Was it an ongoing belief? I believe so.

Why write such such things to believers?

I believe it is to encourage them to remain Faithful and not to be highminded.


These people were beloved and were obeying.

So so they were believers being encouraged to keep obeying the Truth.








This is not teaching a worked for salvation or a salvation that must be maintained by works......

Work out your salvation......YOUR is a personal pronoun which means it is something they already possess and the implication is to fit out what you already posses.......such as the order found in the following...

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

NOTICE.....the word "YOUR" is not past what they already POSSESS which is FAITH........

YOUR-->ὑμῶν

Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: su
Phonetic Spelling: (soo)
Short Definition: you
Definition: you.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
I should have read your post later.
I am sat here outside having my lunchtime coffee and read your post.
i have now had to put a pair of sunglasses on and it's not even sunny.
I don't want people to see my welling up eyes.

Thanks for sharing the above. It has bought a joy to my heart.

God is good.
AMEN brother.....just when we think there is no hope he comes thru in spades.......makes me think of the disciples in the ship tossed to and fro on the storm tossed sea.....they were positive they were at the point of perishing in the sea......and Jesus rebukes the wind and the sea....oh ye of little faith.....!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Repentance and faith are not required? Who has said this? Besides you.
it is amazing

the only ppl saying they the mystery they are fighting against is them, the one they are accusing do not say it or believe it, that's the problem once again in cc, people have their preconceived ideas and they stick to them,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Philippians 2
12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 17Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 18For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.





what have they always obeyed?

Why are they instructed to work out their own Salvation with fear and trembling?

Hold forth the word of life?


Was their not a one off moment for these people?

Was it an ongoing belief? I believe so.

Why write such such things to believers?

I believe it is to encourage them to remain Faithful and not to be highminded.


These people were beloved and were obeying.

So so they were believers being encouraged to keep obeying the Truth.








again wrong thread, that belongs in the Christian growth thread not he how to be saved thread.

Can we please stay on topic?

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This is not teaching a worked for salvation or a salvation that must be maintained by works......

Work out your salvation......YOUR is a personal pronoun which means it is something they already possess and the implication is to fit out what you already posses.......such as the order found in the following...

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

NOTICE.....the word "YOUR" is not past what they already POSSESS which is FAITH........

YOUR-->ὑμῶν

Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: su
Phonetic Spelling: (soo)
Short Definition: you
Definition: you.

Amen, thats why it belongs in the Christian growth thread, not how to be saved, It is their salvation, they are already saved, and part of Christian growth is mineing, or working out what is in you (your salvation)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,724
4,083
113
62
Hi all...I do not believe we will ever know while walking on this earth how much our Father God really loves us...It is one thing to speak His love from our lips, but when we are on our own and tears are flowing, family have no idea who you are anymore because they are lost and we are found, when our hands our covering our faces while the tears pour, we hear these words " I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you " :)...If i was still attached to my unsaved family, my heart would break, last night I truly came to realize what cold hearts mean :(...When times are hard, I turn to Him, my Savior, my Lord, my everything...His promises are truth, I am sealed in Him, who in their right mind would want to walk away, I will run to Him, I am saved and my Faith in Him has grown today, why, because I trusted, leaned and relied on Him, today I am walking tall because He has restored me...What a wonderful thing to be a child of God...Thank you Jesus...xox...
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
People want to say man is ok as he is, no need for change.
In a weird way this resting passivity is another version of the same.
I know that's how what they are saying sounds to you. But they don't believe there is no need for change. They have just seen they don't change themselves and that God is doing it.

As for resting passivity, you will see that it becomes more passive after some of the struggles and skirmishes of growing trust are won. IT becomes more passive and yet prayer becomes more and more and more. You will see that eventually because you will live it.

I know it is sometimes nearly impossible to have conversation beyond going over the basics again and again with some men and this is because they truly believe you don't understand the basics, even when you do. And it is sometimes further hindered because their goal is a certain doctrine and nothing else really. But you can always find men who are where you are and who you can talk with and then you can sometimes find that rare man who may be past you in spiritual understanding but who remembers being there himself and so he doesn't fight with you but has good and productive conversation with you.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,873
6,392
113
it is amazing

the only ppl saying they the mystery they are fighting against is them, the one they are accusing do not say it or believe it, that's the problem once again in cc, people have their preconceived ideas and they stick to them,
that is the main reason this thread is nearing 2000 pages. about half of it is people arguing against the non-existing " THEM and THEY " ,.

you can't have a fruitful conversation with someone who is trying to rebuke people who are not there, and claiming the people who are not there are saying things like " sin does not matter "," just believe and do whatever you want, and get a free pass into Heaven". all strawmen.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
that is the main reason this thread is nearing 2000 pages. about half of it is people arguing against the non-existing " THEM and THEY " ,.

you can't have a fruitful conversation with someone who is trying to rebuke people who are not there, and claiming the people who are not there are saying things like " sin does not matter "," just believe and do whatever you want, and get a free pass into Heaven". all strawmen.

That is why their message is not heard, it can not b heard when there is nothing meat to it, God into thin air, because there is nothing for it to cling on it is bas d on false truths so it can not even convict anyone or get them to think.

only f there are people here who actually believe those things will their message have any affect,
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
I understand what you are saying here and yes love is the ultimate goal and a process of growth and maturity.....however....I have one issue and it is with the bolded.....I cannot get past the seemingly contradictory statement about the bolded above and what the following verse has to state...

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Maybe for some men it is more immediate. For others, like me, there is labor to more fully rest.

It's like Teresa said - like drawing up water by hand from a well versus a water wheel. She describes it as first laboring more and then later having the water just come to you. :)