Are you Christian or Jewish...

[Desertsrose]

Has he gifted them with infallibility?

Need no. The warning is in regard to those who say we do need an man to teach us. Not can they teach or should they teach.

Do we need to heed the warning and rather than following the commandment to seek after the approval of God when rightly dividing His word .

Do we give over that approval to men?

How do we reconcile that God has given us teachers but warns us of those who say we need men to teach us as we seek their approval .

Hi Gary,

Yes we need teachers/preachers today. They are gifted to the body of Christ to help them grow in the true knowledge of the Lord.

And then our part is to always be reading the scriptures and studying them so that we can weed out the false teachers. Everything the Lord has blessed the church with works synergistically. Each part doing their part to the building up of the body of Christ.

We don't reject the true gift and we don't worship the gift. If someone does seek the approval of man rather than the approval of God, that person needs correction. The whole body of Christ is meant to love one another, but also to help them when they are in error.

So as each one of us studies God's word, we all work together to promote the true gospel of Christ and to avoid false teaching. We are to be like the Bereans, we are to read the scriptures to see if what's being taught is really the word of God.

God using a teacher is one way that He grows up the body of Christ. All the giftings need to flow for the body to be healthy. The Lord shows us that we are one, that we need each other.

We need the Romans 12 gifts:
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

We need the Corinthians 12 gifts:
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

And we need the Ephesians 4 gifts:
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

As a body of believers we need each person doing their part.

 

[beta]

how does that point flow from "we don't need any human teachers" ?

i never had the idea from reading the Bible that as a Gentile believer in the new covenant of Christ that i should be keeping the Jewish Sabbath regulations.

it was only humans that have ever taught me that.

Perhaps you would like to tell me where in the Bible you have read of the ''Jewish Sabbath ' regulations ?
In my KJV it reads 'it is the Sabbath of the Lord' Lev 23v3.
Have I ever asked anyone to keep 'jewish regulations ? Are you holding me responsible for what other people say and do ?

 

[posthuman]

Perhaps you would like to tell me where in the Bible you have read of the ''Jewish Sabbath ' regulations ?
In my KJV it reads 'it is the Sabbath of the Lord' Lev 23v3.
Have I ever asked anyone to keep 'jewish regulations ? Are you holding me responsible for what other people say and do ?

this passage is useful to us because it not only defines who the Sabbaths were given to but the purpose that the giving of the Sabbaths was to accomplish:

Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
(Ezekiel 20:12)​

when i called them "the Jewish Sabbath regulations" it is because it was to those baptized into Moses that the Sabbaths were given: the children of Israel; the Jews.

the purpose of the Sabbaths - all of them, not just the weekly one - is so that they ((the Jews, see context of this chapter in Ezekiel)) might know that it is THE LORD that makes them holy.

who makes me holy?
what teaches me that?

well let's see what Christ's apostles wrote about that:

After saying above,
“SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE IN THEM”
(which are offered according to the Law), then He said,
“BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.”
He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Hebrews 10:8-10)
​

here in the times after the advent of the Messiah, it's written that Christ's sacrifice has once and for all made those whose trust is in Him, holy. see also the famous verse 14 in this chapter.
this is written in the context of showing that the Law of Torah is made obsolete by His advent, and its sacrifices are superseded by Christ's own sacrifice.

this is by God's will: the first is taken away, so that the second is established. it's written right there ↑

so what is the sign given to me, a gentile who never had the Law of Moses, that it is THE LORD who makes me holy?
it is the sacrifice of Christ. so He says, come unto me, and I will give you rest -- and this same letter to the Hebrews says, whoever has ceased from his own labors has entered His Rest. it shows that the Sabbaths given to the Jews were only a shadow of the true Sabbath: the Rest of God is Christ; enter in.

This doesn't say, "keep all the Sabbaths given through Moses"
it explains what those Sabbaths were given for, and what they mean: how those rituals pointed to Jesus Christ as the reality. it says the rituals are obsolete, and wax away.

so my point is, the scripture doesn't tell me "keep the Sabbaths" -- it told those under the Law that, but it tells me i'm not under the Law. only humans ever tell me that, not scripture. SDA. HR. people who want to trade grace for written ordinances. none of the apostles told me, or anyone else, that they needed to convert to Judaism, or to pretend to, but only partly, as convenient. that's human teaching: i don't get it from reading the Bible.

 

[beta]

this passage is useful to us because it not only defines who the Sabbaths were given to but the purpose that the giving of the Sabbaths was to accomplish:

Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
(Ezekiel 20:12)​

when i called them "the Jewish Sabbath regulations" it is because it was to those baptized into Moses that the Sabbaths were given: the children of Israel; the Jews.

the purpose of the Sabbaths - all of them, not just the weekly one - is so that they ((the Jews, see context of this chapter in Ezekiel)) might know that it is THE LORD that makes them holy.

who makes me holy?
what teaches me that?

well let's see what Christ's apostles wrote about that:

After saying above,
“SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE IN THEM”
(which are offered according to the Law), then He said,
“BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.”
He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Hebrews 10:8-10)
​

here in the times after the advent of the Messiah, it's written that Christ's sacrifice has once and for all made those whose trust is in Him, holy. see also the famous verse 14 in this chapter.
this is written in the context of showing that the Law of Torah is made obsolete by His advent, and its sacrifices are superseded by Christ's own sacrifice.

this is by God's will: the first is taken away, so that the second is established. it's written right there ↑

so what is the sign given to me, a gentile who never had the Law of Moses, that it is THE LORD who makes me holy?
it is the sacrifice of Christ. so He says, come unto me, and I will give you rest -- and this same letter to the Hebrews says, whoever has ceased from his own labors has entered His Rest. it shows that the Sabbaths given to the Jews were only a shadow of the true Sabbath: the Rest of God is Christ; enter in.

This doesn't say, "keep all the Sabbaths given through Moses"
it explains what those Sabbaths were given for, and what they mean: how those rituals pointed to Jesus Christ as the reality. it says the rituals are obsolete, and wax away.

so my point is, the scripture doesn't tell me "keep the Sabbaths" -- it told those under the Law that, but it tells me i'm not under the Law. only humans ever tell me that, not scripture. SDA. HR. people who want to trade grace for written ordinances. none of the apostles told me, or anyone else, that they needed to convert to Judaism, or to pretend to, but only partly, as convenient. that's human teaching: i don't get it from reading the Bible.

Friend, to solve this conundrum we ought to start with one thing at the time....with lots of patience and good-will...sadly lacking in most !
Christianity/sunday worship has been practiced for a very long time - in total opposition to JESUS' own custom - and all the scriptures in the Bible have not clarified the problem. Look how divided we still are !

It is hard for me to understand how Christians say they follow Jesus yet do not walk with Him as their example.
I am Not saying we should start from a 'jewish perspective or any other human way which somehow has also crept into christian teaching by UNgodly men right at the beginning of christianity !!! that we can not deny because scripture says so....consequently needs serious discernment when reading.
Also misunderstanding the OT is not helping
If we don't get 'Sabbath-keeping from God, Jesus or the original Disciples WHY are we reading the Bible at all ???
People are trying to 'tear out the Sabbath' and expect it all still to work for them ! Not possible !!!

 

[Angela53510]

Not really, I have been struggling to reply to all questions, and I am on my phone. Desert Rose has a great few points. And I suppose I am picking the best bits from a whole Canon. But I just can't reconcile Jesus's word of love, with anything said by anyone else, even if it is supposed to be as holy as Christ words.

My bet, from the total ignorance you display of the Bible, that you have never read it! I've read the whole Bible 50 times. The God of the OT is the God of the NT, including Luke, Paul, Peter and John's writings.

If you accept the Gospel of Luke as true, then why not Acts, which Luke also wrote? And Luke tells of Paul's adventures, Peter and James and the Jerusalem Council. So why not accept those as true?

We won't even get into the fact that Jesus, and all the NT writers quote the OT constantly. Was Jesus wrong to believe the OT and to quote it! Or that the OT prophecies Jesus 100's of times.

We won't even get into the fact that God had some very big reasons for wiping out the Canaanites and surrounding cultures. One of which, was that they sacrificed their children in the fires to their false gods. And that these false religions would seduce the Israelites away from the true God, which happened when they didn't obey God.

So get a modern version of the Bibke, and read it. You might also want to study obedience, and the consequences of sin, while you are at it!

PD God is love. 1 John 4;8,16

 

[posthuman]

Leviticus 12 details animal sacrifices that a mother must make when a child is born. Mary did these things after the birth of Christ.

If we must keep Sabbaths and feasts because Christs life is our pattern, why should we not also do this, and why should we ignore all the sacrifices the scripture commands for the very same sabbaths and feasts?

Do you think the Law is separable into parts you can break and optional parts and irrelevant parts? Which scripture teaches that? Or is maybe that idea "the teaching of ungodly men" ?

 

[loveme1]

Leviticus 12 details animal sacrifices that a mother must make when a child is born. Mary did these things after the birth of Christ.

If we must keep Sabbaths and feasts because Christs life is our pattern, why should we not also do this, and why should we ignore all the sacrifices the scripture commands for the very same sabbaths and feasts?

Do you think the Law is separable into parts you can break and optional parts and irrelevant parts? Which scripture teaches that? Or is maybe that idea "the teaching of ungodly men" ?

The New Covenant came to us through the OLD Covenant... but may all Drink the New wine and not try to mix.

Grace and Truth leads to worshipping GOD in Spirit and Truth.

The Just shall live by Faith indeed.

 

[beta]

Leviticus 12 details animal sacrifices that a mother must make when a child is born. Mary did these things after the birth of Christ.

If we must keep Sabbaths and feasts because Christs life is our pattern, why should we not also do this, and why should we ignore all the sacrifices the scripture commands for the very same sabbaths and feasts?

Do you think the Law is separable into parts you can break and optional parts and irrelevant parts? Which scripture teaches that? Or is maybe that idea "the teaching of ungodly men" ?

Why do we not still 'uphold eveything that was done in the OT ?
Heb 7v12 For the Priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ....that's why we now do things differently. However...what christianity has done in ignorance is to 'abolish the law altogether instead of allowing changes....that is their mistake and confusion !

The law IS separable when done by GOD and He most certainly separated the sacred Commandments spoken by HIMself, from the secular/carnal commandments given through Moses, Deut 5v22. Ex 20. They are NOT all ONE law....there is difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10. As Paul also states re the Commandments which are spiritual, eternal, holy just and good.Rom 7.

 

[beta]

I should say that the 10 Commandments have always been different and separate from the commandments contained in ordinances/carnal works which have been abolished on the cross Eph 2v15; Col2v14; and there is no reason to include them in Moses' law.

Moses may well have been instructed to RE-iterate ALL the law given at Sinai Ex 20 when the people REFUSED to hear God anymore. But truth is ''they had heard Him'' personally give the Commandments and no more...so they had heard them from GOD first Deut 5v24,25, making them GOD's Law ! not Moses'.

 

[Grace777x70]

The 10 commandments are definitely a part of the law of Moses. Paul himself said they were.

Coveting is in the 10 unless it was kicked out for getting caught "coveting".

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

There is no such thing as separating out parts of the law of Moses "in order" to try to bring Christians that are in Christ from "doing the law of Moses". The law of Moses is a goner and we now live in the New Covenant.

The true Christian has died to the law, been released from the Law and not under the Law anymore.

Get this wrong and we create our own religion of self-works which has the "appearance" of good but it denies the power of God to effect transformation by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

 

[garee]

Yes we need teachers/preachers today. They are gifted to the body of Christ to help them grow in the true knowledge of the Lord.

Hi thanks for the reply,

Yes as men plant the incorruptible seed and water it with the water of the word of God. God can cause the growth if it is his will to work inside.

And then our part is to always be reading the scriptures and studying them so that we can weed out the false teachers. Everything the Lord has blessed the church with works synergistically. Each part doing their part to the building up of the body of Christ

Yes I agree each part in respect to the beautiful feet that God moves to bring the gospel. But not in respect to the tongue .He can in that way use the tongue of an Ass or female Donkey, used in ceremonial laws to represent a unbeliever (unconverted mankind) to restrain the madness of false prophets like Balaam .

In doing so I believe to help us understand he who has no form is not served by human hands in any way shape or form as if he was a man as us. That I believe shows us we do not need a man to teach us. It’s the hearing of His word called the hearing of faith that does teach us.

We don't reject the true gift and we don't worship the gift. If someone does seek the approval of man rather than the approval of God, that person needs correction. The whole body of Christ is meant to love one another, but also to help them when they are in error.

Amen it could help them or could lead them into error.

So as each one of us studies God's word, we all work together to promote the true gospel of Christ and to avoid false teaching. We are to be like the Bereans, we are to read the scriptures to see if what's being taught is really the word of God.

Amen we read the bible to see if what is being taught is being taught by Emanuel.

God using a teacher is one way that He grows up the body of Christ. All the giftings need to flow for the body to be healthy. The Lord shows us that we are one, that we need each other.

We need the Romans 12 gifts:
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

We need the Corinthians 12 gifts:
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

And we need the Ephesians 4 gifts:
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

As a body of believers we need each person doing their part.

I would agree as we attain the unity of the faith of Christ, the one faith of God so we can work together as he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness.

Looking at the example in Romans 1. It is the mutual faith of Christ that worked in Paul moving him as a gift of His spirit to bring the prophecy of God into the hearing of the disciple he was sent to.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith( Christ's) both of you and me.Rom 1:11


Because the work of faith was not of either Paul or him who received the gift of hearing the faith of God it worked to effect the good purposes God sent in both.

Neither needed men to teach them what to say or how to believe. Ultimately it is God who must teach us and bring to mind the things he has taught. In that way we need no man to teach us .

Some would say we do and could be in danger of usurping the authority of Christ by blashpheming the Holy name by which we are called heavenward.

It is like the example in Mathew 23. We are to call no man father on earth for one is our father in heaven and in the same way call no man on earth teacher for one is our teacher/master in heaven .

There is a way to properly address them and another that exults them making the word of God without effect. .But one is our teacher/master, no man could serve two. Both, the things of God and those of men.

God who remains without form is not a man as us and neither is there an infallible fleshly teacher called a daysman assigned to stand between God and man. Like the Pope who does it opening and boldly.

God who remains without mother and father beginning of Spirit life or end thereof is not served by human hands . Even when the Son of man was approached and a called good teacher/Rabbi/master declared only God is good. In that way the warning in 1 John 2 applies as it reveals the man of sin, the antichrist as to his methodology.

God does not except any worship in respect to the things seen. It was that ideology the father of lies used to deceive mankind in the beginning .You could say using Eve as a antichrist influenced by false prophecy (you will not die)

 

[Grandpa]

Can anyone provide me with a logical and rational argument that refutes my argument. Furthermore, let's pick any contentious issue: let's say gays or gay marriage. Did Christ say anything against gays? If not, and you quote Leviticus, then in quoting and believing Leviticus, you are being a Jew not being Christian.
I have used this example because it is so volitile, not because I approve personal of homosexuality. But as a True Christian I should have no issue with homosexuality. Please only rational replies, I actually want to be proved wrong, but fact is fact.

John 16:7-12
[FONT=&quot]7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


What do you think those many things the Lord wanted to say were, that He didn't say because they could not bear them?

Who is this Comforter and why does the Lord place so much importance on Him?


I'll answer my first question because it will help you. Paul expounds on what the Lord has said in the 4 gospels. Those are the things that the Lord still had to say that He could not say because they could not bear it. Because All had not yet been fulfilled.

For example, the Lord could not tell them that they were not under law anymore but under Grace because All the Law had not been fulfilled yet. The Lord still had to go to the cross and resurrect and ascend to the Father. Then He could say you are no longer under law but under Grace...


There are many other things that Paul has written that are 'further' words of the Lord.


Just to wrap up a very complicated issue; I can see how a person can come to Christ and be a Christian with just the 4 gospels. BUT... Without Paul you will be confused on how a Christian Life is to be led. Without the OT I can't possibly see how a person could understand Salvation fully. What was required, what had to be done. What couldn't be accomplished by men. Etc...[/FONT]

 

[loveme1]

The 10 commandments are definitely a part of the law of Moses. Paul himself said they were.

Coveting is in the 10 unless it was kicked out for getting caught "coveting".

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

There is no such thing as separating out parts of the law of Moses "in order" to try to bring Christians that are in Christ from "doing the law of Moses". The law of Moses is a goner and we now live in the New Covenant.

The true Christian has died to the law, been released from the Law and not under the Law anymore.

Get this wrong and we create our own religion of self-works which has the "appearance" of good but it denies the power of God to effect transformation by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Romans 7

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.





If you consider that the flesh is not subject to the law of GOD you will know why the Messiah taught a man can not enter the kingdom if they are not born again.




John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Romans 8


1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded isdeath; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind isenmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Dreamstate]

Jewish or Christian, I'm neither, I'm just here to force people to accept my opinion with a grumpy look on my face, oK ?

 

[Grandpa]

Jewish or Christian, I'm neither, I'm just here to force people to accept my opinion with a grumpy look on my face, oK ?

You'll have to work on the grumpy look. It doesn't really look grumpy enough.

Study Sesame Streets Oscar for the correct way to assume the grumpy look.

 

[stillness]

“Therefore say I to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Jesus said this to Israel. There is no more old covenant, it was cancelled when Jesus died. What applied to Israel now applies to the Church. Sadly many in the church are still misunderstanding as you and looking for an early temple because they misunderstand about the daily sacrifice: now being "Daily pick up your cross and follow Me." and the daily sacrifice taken away by the abomination, being Christians deceived to fight against one another. This will happen one more time, during the time of trouble such as never was: in my lifetime. It happened during the second world war: 2,300 days, Daniel 8:23...

 

[TruthTalk]

I believe the only authority in the Bible is direct quotes from Jesus. I believe in Jesus Christ's God, the one he describes.

Jesus Christ is on every page of the Bible; from Genesis chapter one to the last chapter of revelation.

Genesis1:26
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Revelation22:20
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

True Gospel Front to back

 

[TruthTalk]

He is God he is the son of God. Didn't he call himself the son of man on occasion... My logical argument was that when your reading old testament (Jewish Bible) you in that moment being a jew.

Shocking news to report: Christians are son's of Abraham

"Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham."
Galatians3:7