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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#21
Rev 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every ship master and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

I wonder why John didn't include aircraft seeing as a large amount of commerce and wealth is generated by airfreight?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#22
Rev 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every ship master and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

I wonder why John didn't include aircraft seeing as a large amount of commerce and wealth is generated by airfreight?
Probably because......

Roughly ninety percent of the world's goods are transported by sea with over seventy percent as containerized cargo
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#23
And he forgot to mention road/rail freight which accounts for around 50% of trade..
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#24
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold, although you enlarge your eyes with paint, in vain you make yourself beautiful.Your lovers despise you;They seek your life.

There is a definite link between Jeremiah 4:30 and the book of revelation:


Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

We know that the "love" relationship between Jerusalem (aka the whore of Babylon) and her lovers (Romans emperors) came to an end in the 1st century AD when they "sought her life".
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#25
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold, although you enlarge your eyes with paint, in vain you make yourself beautiful.Your lovers despise you;They seek your life.

There is a definite link between Jeremiah 4:30 and the book of revelation:


Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

We know that the "love" relationship between Jerusalem (aka the whore of Babylon) and her lovers (Romans emperors) came to an end in the 1st century AD when they "sought her life".
You guys love to chunk context hey.....Jeremiah is indicative of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and has no bearing on ROME'S occupation and control of Jerusalem.....I need to bring the caker taker statement back out
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#26
And why - for harlotry - same thing John is accusing 1st century Jerusalem of.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#27
Although this speaks of an earlier event by the Chaldean's this is another hint at the identity of the whore in revelation - burning with fire.

Ezek 5:1 As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword; take and use it as a barber’s razor on your head and beard. Then take scales for weighing and divide [fn]the hair.

Ezek 5:2 One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them.

Ezek 5:3Take also a few in number from them and bind them in the edges of your robes.

Ezek 5:4 Take again some of them and throw them into the fire and burn them in the fire; from it a fire will spread to all the house of Israel

.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

John certainly seems to make many allusions to Ezekiel which helps with identifying Israel as the whore:
 
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#28
Although this speaks of an earlier event by the Chaldean's this is another hint at the identity of the whore in revelation - burning with fire.

Ezek 5:1 As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword; take and use it as a barber’s razor on your head and beard. Then take scales for weighing and divide [fn]the hair.

Ezek 5:2 One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them.

Ezek 5:3Take also a few in number from them and bind them in the edges of your robes.

Ezek 5:4 Take again some of them and throw them into the fire and burn them in the fire; from it a fire will spread to all the house of Israel

.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

John certainly seems to make many allusions to Ezekiel which helps with identifying Israel as the whore:
Again context is the Babylonian/Chaldean judgment upon Jerusalem.....your application does not fit....God gathers the nations of the world AGAINST JERUSALEM to battle so he may pour out his wrath UPON the NATIONS....HE DEFENDS JERUSALEM and does not BURN his heritage with fire....REGARDLESS....the characteristics found in REVELATION as applied unto Mystery, BABYLON that mega CITY do not fit JERUSALEM in the 1st Century and or even 21st century......and I will remind you...HISTORY proves that a Roman soldier disobeying the commands of Titus is what started the fire that burnt the temple in the 1st Century......after the destruction in 586 B.C. Israel was not a power/state/kingdom again until 1947-48......she was not sold out as a whore to Rome, but was under ROME and in servitude to Rome and not sitting ABOVE or ON ROME......and the proof that you guys are blinded by your own prejudice is found in the post I made concerning the fact that 90% of the worlds goods are traded by SEA.....A FACTUAL statement of truth that neither one of you liked or agreed with, but rather continued making mouthy comments about JOHN forgetting something....a total disregard for inspiration and facts to hold to your stance!
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#29
I don't see any mouthy comments made here by myself or old hermit.

"HE DEFENDS JERUSALEM and does not BURN his heritage with fire"

God has used foregn armies in the OT to bring destruction on his "heritage"

How do you think that the blood of the prophets was avenged? A slap on this wrist?

Mat 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

God used the Roman armies to bring vengeance on Jerusalem in the war of 66-70 AD - he didn't defend it.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#30
I don't see any mouthy comments made here by myself or old hermit.

"HE DEFENDS JERUSALEM and does not BURN his heritage with fire"

God has used foregn armies in the OT to bring destruction on his "heritage"

How do you think that the blood of the prophets was avenged? A slap on this wrist?

Mat 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

God used the Roman armies to bring vengeance on Jerusalem in the war of 66-70 AD - he didn't defend it.
Sure he has....and the narrative changes in the N.T.....never said he defended it in 70 A.D. and yes...she shall be desolate, the city shall be taken and the women raped....etc.....but she is not burnt with fire AND the characteristics of Revelation do not fit JERUSALEM......Jerusalem and the people have been judged.....the last 2000 years almost.....at the end of the age though....the push by the world and SATAN is to annihilate the JEWS and ISRAEL....JESUS will stand to defend the remnant that COLLECTIVELY acknowledges him when they look upon him whom they pierced and weep for him as a first born son.....He will defend his heritage and people....NOT burn it!
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#31
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

The above is not to be understood in a wooden literal sense, although the temple in the 1st century did go up in smoke.

John is using imagery, it's more than likely that cannibalism in regards to "eat her flesh" didn't actually happen - fire in prophetic imagery is used in judgment. John is using language from the old testament in regards to a harlot:

"Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire."
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#32
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

I have yet to see where the dispensationalists have identified a biblical method/mechanism of transferring the blood of the prophets from O' Jerusalem to another entity, church, city or country.

This is a major fail in my opinion.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee......

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

I doubt that anyone since the sack of Jerusalem has identified themselves as the "children of them which killed the prophets"..:p

Fool me once....:cool:
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#33
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

I have yet to see where the dispensationalists have identified a biblical method/mechanism of transferring the blood of the prophets from O' Jerusalem to another entity, church, city or country.

This is a major fail in my opinion.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee......

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

I doubt that anyone since the sack of Jerusalem has identified themselves as the "children of them which killed the prophets"..:p

Fool me once....:cool:
Connect the last part to Jerusalem....biblically, in context....and prove--> AND ALL that were slain upon the earth...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#34
It's right here:

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Unless you can think of some prophets that were slain after the 1st century you are out of luck.

Ellen White does not qualify...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#35
Jesus and John are only concerned with the blood of those that were shed on the land of Israel, they are not including the whole planet. This is covenant wrath for killing innocent blood.

"shed upon the earth" (Land)
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#36
Very well. Here is chapter 13.

By oldhermit


I. Who is the Sea Beast, 1-10?

There is no break in the closing thought of chapter twelve and the opening verse of chapter thirteen. These two chapters must be read as if the chapter break does not exist. In keeping with the theme of the dragon waging war with those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus,” the beast rises up out of the sea.
A. Is it the Dragon on the seashore or John? This is a matter of a textual variant.
“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.”
This textual variant is really of little consequence. In most English translations, chapter thirteen opens with
And I sawstood on the sand of the seashore,” rather than “And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.” The NIV and the NASB prefer the latter rendering while translations such as the ASV, the Douay-Rheims Bible, the ERV, and the Weymouth New Testament translate it as he stood upon the sand of the sea.” The antecedent of “he” would of course be the dragon of 12:17. The reason for the variant translation rests upon the omission of a single letter. Should it be ἐστάθη – 'I stood', or should it be ἐστάθην – 'He stood'? If the use of ἐστάθην is correct, this would suggest that the dragon stood as the one who seemed to summon the beast out of the sea. If ἐστάθη is correct then John is simply acknowledging himself as the on-the-scene witness of this rising of the beast out of the sea. The opinion among scholars is fairly split on this issue but from the continuing context of the chapter it would seem to me to be in favor of John over the dragon.

B. Who is the beast rising up out of the sea?


1.
“Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.” We have already established from chapter twelve that the Sea Beast is the Roman Empire.


a. The then horns are still the tributary king of Rome; this is why they are wearing crowns. King Herod was one of these tributary kings.

b. The seven heads are still the seven hills of Rome which had become the symbol of the imperial city; “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,and are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while,” 17:9-10.

2. The appearance of the beast is presented as that of a composite predator.


a.
“Like a leopard, his feet were like those of a bear, his mouth like the mouth of a lion;” This beast is a devourer of nations.

b. “And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.” Satan is the power behind the throne and his prey would be the Christian and Jewish communities.

3. The wounding of the beast,
“I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound (no perceived hope for survival) was healed.”

a. Which head was wounded?
The wound is seen on only one of the heads of the beast, not one of the horns (provinces). Since, according to chapter seventeen the seven heads were the first seven emperors, this wound was received during the reign of one of these seven rulers. Since five of them had already come and gone and one had not yet come, this only leaves the one who was reigning at the time which was Nero. This means that the Empire of Rome suffered a fatal wound during the time of its sixth emperor, and had God not healed the wound, Rome would have destroyed itself. From the time of Galba who succeeded Nero to Vespasian the empire was in a state of political chaos with three consecutive emperors within the space of eighteen months. During this time Rome was also plagued with civil war and bankruptcy. It was not until Vespasian came to power in 69AD that Rome began to recover from the brink of collapse. From this also sprang up a resurgence of emperor worship that was enforced under penalty of death.

b. What was the 'fatal' wound?


* As verse fourteen tells us, the wound was the result of warfare
the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.” The fact that he came to life simply means that the Empire regained its stability and position of world dominance and power under Vespasian.

* The fatal wound was 'healed'. This has to be the result of divine intervention. The head did not simply recover from the wound over time. Action was taken in response to the wound. The fact that it was healed speaks of divide intervention on the part of God. Without an act of God the wound would have been fatal. Rome still had a role to play in its global spread of the gospel. The Roman persecution was largely responsible for the spread of Christianity.
* The seeming indestructible nature of Rome drew a response from the tributary nations. “And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” They praise the strength and power of the beast rather than God who healed the beast.

This is a marvellous post,then again if you are correct then the Revelation was not given until after ad68 ,,,did you catch that that is what you said?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#37
This is a marvellous post,then again if you are correct then the Revelation was not given until after ad68 ,,,did you catch that that is what you said?
Perhaps I have missed something. How did you determine that?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#38
Perhaps I have missed something. How did you determine that?

What you sad about Nero and Galba, the one who had received the deadly would was already in the pit in Revelation and would later rise,maybe no one will notice,,,
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#39
What you sad about Nero and Galba, the one who had received the deadly would was already in the pit in Revelation and would later rise,maybe no one will notice,,,
This scene, like all other scenes in this book were things that were about to come. These were not things that had happened at the time of the writing of the Revelation.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#40
This scene, like all other scenes in this book were things that were about to come. These were not things that had happened at the time of the writing of the Revelation.

hmm, in Revelation 1:19 the Revelation seems to cover all three tenses in time so in Revelation 17:8 the one who received the deadly wound in the eyes of the angel who is speaking was at that time(tense) existing in the pit and would afterwards rise out of it.