Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

[dcontroversal]

The bible is clear....He is the payment for the sins of the whole world and he died for the sins of the whole world almost 2000 years ago.....ALL sin has been nailed to the cross in Christ except unbelief in the work of Christ......the blood of Christ shed once was sufficient to pay the human debt of sin............I mean...some people nail Jesus up every day it seems.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you believe that you can hurt God?

I actually do.

But do you believe that your apology is enough?

You think a simple sorry, forgive me, is sufficient?

Even a deep meaningful real apology, some gut felt tears, some real repentance, some real OMG?

I don't.

The ONLY thing that is sufficient to God is the spilled blood of Jesus and our recognition and acceptance of that sacrifice and the weight it carries. And the goal that it accomplished.

That is enough.

AMEN bro.....he paid the debt for humanity and God was well pleased........thank God we cannot embellish his work....his work is sufficient.

 

[Grace777x70]

The old man is definitely dead and was crucified with Christ on the cross.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am crucified = perfect passive which means a one time event in the past that is completed and the effects of that event are forever on-going in the present. Passive means that it was done to us - not us doing it.

Paul says that it is in "knowing that the old man is dead" that we can begin to understand that sin does not have dominion over us anymore because we are "in the spirit" and not in the flesh.

Romans 6:5-7 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

[SUP]7 [/SUP] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

But the flesh is still here - although that is not the real us. The circumcision of Christ has "cutaway" the inner man in Christ from the flesh which has the power or law of sin still in it. Col. 2:17.

I will speak to this truth about the "flesh with the law of sin still in it " in another post.

 

[dcontroversal]

Limey....

Eph 4.25-32

[SUP]29[/SUP]Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This tells us very clearly acting in these ways grieve the Holy Spirit...grieve means to cause sorrow and offend....SIN causes sorrow and offends the Holy Spirit....

QUOTE]

The underlined and italicized.....stuff like that grieves the spirit....think about that for a minute!

 

[Grace777x70]

I have done lot's of meditating on Romans 7. I love that chapter. Here is what I came up with.

Here is my take on Romans 7 and the flesh. It's long but there is a lot to it.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man which is now dead ( but his old habits and ways are still programmed in the flesh and our brains )- this is where renewing our minds comes in.

The mind and the fleshly brain are 2 different things. The mind of Christ that we have in us in our inner man needs to work through this brain which is of this earth.

When we die - the brain will be left in the grave but the real us will be with the Lord.

2) it is used when talking about self-effort as in Paul saying that he had no confidence in his ability.

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "law of sin" ( Rom. 7:23) .....these two are in cahoots together.

Flesh and the law/principle of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The law of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The law of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man which was crucified and died with Christ on the cross. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

We try to get life and purpose and meaning by the deeds of the flesh which is they are the opposite of life in Christ - where we get our life from Him only.

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my words

Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13

We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John.

Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount. He is in us now in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.

Sorry for the long post but as I said - there is a lot to this. I also have a post on how Vines's Expository Dictionary talks about the "law of sin" being an entity.

There is a difference between the noun "sin" and the verb "sinning" which is the action in Romans 6-7. It is used as a noun 48x times but as a verb only 2x times and it is for a specific reason.

 

[Cee]

Here's how I see it:

Romans 7 is Paul showing those under their law the need for a Savior.

He removes all option for them to be able to walk God's way without Him.

It was only through DYING to the Law that we could be free to love.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have done lot's of meditating on Romans 7. I love that chapter. Here is what I came up with.

Here is my take on Romans 7 and the flesh. It's long but there is a lot to it.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man which is now dead ( but his old habits and ways are still programmed in the flesh and our brains )- this is where renewing our minds comes in.

The mind and the fleshly brain are 2 different things. The mind of Christ that we have in us in our inner man needs to work through this brain which is of this earth.

When we die - the brain will be left in the grave but the real us will be with the Lord.

2) it is used when talking about self-effort as in Paul saying that he had no confidence in his ability.

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "law of sin" ( Rom. 7:23) .....these two are in cahoots together.

Flesh and the law/principle of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The law of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The law of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man which was crucified and died with Christ on the cross. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

We try to get life and purpose and meaning by the deeds of the flesh which is they are the opposite of life in Christ - where we get our life from Him only.

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my words

Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13

We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John.

Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount. He is in us now in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.

Sorry for the long post but as I said - there is a lot to this. I also have a post on how Vines's Expository Dictionary talks about the "law of sin" being an entity.

There is a difference between the noun "sin" and the verb "sinning" which is the action in Romans 6-7. It is used as a noun 48x times but as a verb only 2x times and it is for a specific reason.

That pesky, inspired KOINE GREEK N.T..........gotta love it....especially the verb tense.....sets one willing to listen free from religion and religious dogma......love it....

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that "sin" - the noun - not having dominion over us ( Rom. 6:14 ) is referring to the sin that is in the flesh not having dominion because we are in the spirit in Christ and not in the flesh.

I look at "sinning" ( the action ) as a response to the deceitfulness of sin - the noun ( that which is still in our flesh ) if we yield to the lie that the sin in our flesh is saying to us. Kind of like cause and effect - that is if we believe the lie of sin that speaks to us.

I too believe that the more we get a revelation that we are not in the flesh but really in the spirit because the real us is in Christ - the new creation - then "the influence" of sin loses it's power because of walking by the Spirit which is all based on the grace of Christ alone.

It's the influence of sin in our flesh that deceives us into doing the action of sinning. That is what I see in "sin shall not have dominion over us".

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The flesh ( which are the ways and old habits of getting things from the world instead of through faith in Christ ) and the law/principle of sin ( Romans 7:23 ) work together in cohoots.

They know what works on us individually. For example: If in the past we are trying in our own fleshly ways to get love by having sex with others. Then the power of sin will inflame that desire in us to be with other people.

If we have a problem with pride - then the power of sin will use that to influence us to think that we are the beginning and end of all things... If we think lowly of ourselves then the power of sin will use that to say we are worthless.

Each of us have our own unique fleshly ways of trying to find life from the world's belief system instead of through Christ's life that is in us. This brings death but walking by the spirit brings life and peace through the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work alone.

 

[joaniemarie]

Let's just focus on these statements to see what is true and what is false, using Scripture as our basis of understanding the dilemma. Yes, it is perfectly true that when God regenerates a sinner by His grace, he gives him or her a new heart and a new spirit, and makes that person a "new creature in Christ". Which also means that "old things are passed away, behold all things are become new'.

But here is where your understanding of this fails. "The old man with his ways is dead and gone". That is a false statement, and can lead to a total misunderstanding of sin in the believer's life.

The "old man" was indeed "crucified with Christ", which means that the POWER of the old Adamic sin nature was destroyed in three ways: (1) sin would no longer have dominion over the believer; (2) the old sins of the unregenerate person would not be brought up by God (who would have "cast them behind His back") through the remission of sins at the time of salvation; and the gift of the Holy Spirit (with the indwelling of the Spirit) would enable every Christian to become an overcomer (as long as he crucified or mortified the "flesh").

However -- and this is extremely important -- our "old man" was not eradicated ("dead and gone" as you claim), which means that the PRESENCE of the sin nature would remain until the Rapture. And it is because of this that Paul has given this exhortation in Galatians 5:13-26. [It is a given that any teaching to any church or individual in the NT is applicable to every church and every individual believer]

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [If there was no "flesh" within the believer why would Paul say this?]

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. [If these manifestations were impossible, why would Paul say this?]

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [If the lust of the flesh was "dead and gone", why would Paul say this?]

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [If there was no conflict between the flesh and the Spirit within the believer, why would Paul say this?]

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

SINS OF THE FLESH POSSIBLE IN CHRISTIANS
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [If there was no flesh to crucify, why would Paul say this?]

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. [If these sins were not possible in believers, why would Paul say this?]

I trust that after reading this you (and others who may be like-minded) will firmly set aside their false notions and false teachings, and get back to Bible truth.

Think of it like this., we have "lived and moved and had our being" with our old unregenerate man for years before being born again and given a new nature/spirit and life. We related to everything in life using our old man's eyes and ears and mind even to the the degree of how we learned to breath.,eat., taste.,feel., talk, walk.., etc...

Some of us who were not saved early on used that old man's reasoning to relate to life and people. How to get jobs, used money., drive a car., eat., self examined ourselves and how we looked at other people with our unregenerate man ., There is so much we learned to BE while under the influence and power of the old man.

So today being a Christian we "have" (past tense) crucified the flesh. We need to RECON it to be so. We are now a NEW man with a NEW heart and NEW mind that needs to be lived out now., we have the (old manner of life) with us. Not the old man. He is dead dead dead and DEAD. He has no more power over us but what we keep remembering and doing that he used to do to get by in life. It's what we know how to do and how we were trained.

I used the illustration of the bell and bonging. The old man is the bell and he rang in our heads for years so when he got killed off., the echo of the bell still rings. We still have the flesh but we don't have the old man living in us anymore. Now we have to relate to the world with our new manner of life IN Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Now we are given the CHOICE to live by faith in Christ and what He says in His Word through His Holy Spirit., even though it goes against alllll we have ever learned and seen about living here on earth. We can go by our old manner of living and try to be a Christian with that old manner of living mixed up with our new Spirit man..........But that will be a confusing mess.

Can't put new wine in old wine skins sort of speak. We don't want to be double minded do we? No. But it takes now the guidance and direction and teaching of the Holy Spirit to live by faith and not by sight. Our old manner of living can't fathom walking by faith. Because we were always taught if we don't SEE or FEEL or can PROVE it.,, than it can't be true.

There is no old man alive in us anymore. There IS an old manner of living..old habits and memories and INSTINCTS. They were once a part of us but now are only a memory. We are not in a civil war with ourselves. We are already conquerors through Christ. It is by faith we walk in newness of life. Working OUT what Jesus has put IN us.

 

[dcontroversal]

Think of it like this., we have "lived and moved and had our being" with our old unregenerate man for years before being born again and given a new nature/spirit and life. We related to everything in life using our old man's eyes and ears and mind even to the the degree of how we learned to breath.,eat., taste.,feel., talk, walk.., etc...

Some of us who were not saved early on used that old man's reasoning to relate to life and people. How to get jobs, used money., drive a car., eat., self examined ourselves and how we looked at other people with our unregenerate man ., There is so much we learned to BE while under the influence and power of the old man.

So today being a Christian we "have" (past tense) crucified the flesh. We need to RECON it to be so. We are now a NEW man with a NEW heart and NEW mind that needs to be lived out now., we have the (old manner of life) with us. Not the old man. He is dead dead dead and DEAD. He has no more power over us but what we keep remembering and doing that he used to do to get by in life. It's what we know how to do and how we were trained.

I used the illustration of the bell and bonging. The old man is the bell and he rang in our heads for years so when he got killed off., the echo of the bell still rings. We still have the flesh but we don't have the old man living in us anymore. Now we have to relate to the world with our new manner of life IN Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Now we are given the CHOICE to live by faith in Christ and what He says in His Word through His Holy Spirit., even though it goes against alllll we have ever learned and seen about living here on earth. We can go by our old manner of living and try to be a Christian with that old manner of living mixed up with our new Spirit man..........But that will be a confusing mess.

Can't put new wine in old wine skins sort of speak. We don't want to be double minded do we? No. But it takes now the guidance and direction and teaching of the Holy Spirit to live by faith and not by sight. Our old manner of living can't fathom walking by faith. Because we were always taught if we don't SEE or FEEL or PROVE it.,, than it can't be true.

There is no old man alive in us anymore. There IS an old manner of living..old habits and memories and INSTINCTS. They were once a part of us but now are only a memory. We are not in a civil war with ourselves. We are already conquerors through Christ. It is by faith we walk in newness of life. Working OUT what Jesus has put IN us.

Jesus as our example said.......The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak.......and in HIS MOMENT said...IF it be possible let this cup pass from me......

 

[Limey410v2]

Think of it like this., we have "lived and moved and had our being" with our old unregenerate man for years before being born again and given a new nature/spirit and life. We related to everything in life using our old man's eyes and ears and mind even to the the degree of how we learned to breath.,eat., taste.,feel., talk, walk.., etc...

Some of us who were not saved early on used that old man's reasoning to relate to life and people. How to get jobs, used money., drive a car., eat., self examined ourselves and how we looked at other people with our unregenerate man ., There is so much we learned to BE while under the influence and power of the old man.

So today being a Christian we "have" (past tense) crucified the flesh. We need to RECON it to be so. We are now a NEW man with a NEW heart and NEW mind that needs to be lived out now., we have the (old manner of life) with us. Not the old man. He is dead dead dead and DEAD. He has no more power over us but what we keep remembering and doing that he used to do to get by in life. It's what we know how to do and how we were trained.

I used the illustration of the bell and bonging. The old man is the bell and he rang in our heads for years so when he got killed off., the echo of the bell still rings. We still have the flesh but we don't have the old man living in us anymore. Now we have to relate to the world with our new manner of life IN Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Now we are given the CHOICE to live by faith in Christ and what He says in His Word through His Holy Spirit., even though it goes against alllll we have ever learned and seen about living here on earth. We can go by our old manner of living and try to be a Christian with that old manner of living mixed up with our new Spirit man..........But that will be a confusing mess.

Can't put new wine in old wine skins sort of speak. We don't want to be double minded do we? No. But it takes now the guidance and direction and teaching of the Holy Spirit to live by faith and not by sight. Our old manner of living can't fathom walking by faith. Because we were always taught if we don't SEE or FEEL or can PROVE it.,, than it can't be true.

There is no old man alive in us anymore. There IS an old manner of living..old habits and memories and INSTINCTS. They were once a part of us but now are only a memory. We are not in a civil war with ourselves. We are already conquerors through Christ. It is by faith we walk in newness of life. Working OUT what Jesus has put IN us.

I like the bell analogy. rings true (pun intended)

 

[Grace777x70]

This will be my last post on this. I find this truth liberating and it has done more for me to be living from my spirit which is the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Knowing these truths along with what does the circumcision of Christ mean - where the inner man has been "cut away" from the flesh has yielded the fruit of a holier life then I could ever imagine and a deep love and complete dependence on Christ and the love and grace of the Father in Christ for all living and matters pertaining to this life.




This should help to know the difference between "sin" - the noun used in Romans 6:14 "sin shall not have dominion over you" and "sinning" the verb which is the action of sinning.

In order to understand Romans 6-7 ( and then finally chapter 8 where the Spirit comes in ) we need to understand the difference between "sin" and "sinning".

Not knowing this leads to all kinds of doctrines like this "sinless perfection in the flesh" one that some try to promote. This doctrine will upset the faith of the young Christian and really in the end promote turmoil in their minds and ship-wreck their faith.

This will also create a works-righteousness mindset instead of a faith-righteousness one that is completely fixed on Christ's completed work for the believer.

We will always have the flesh with us and anyone that says they never are "sinning" have a very low opinion of the holiness of God and are only thinking of the "biggie sins" which they don't do and not including things like outbursts of anger, malice, slandering others in the body of Christ, causing strife and divisions..etc.

Malice and slander and things like these ( Gal. 5:21 ) are just as destructive as living a homosexual lifestyle.

There is a difference between sin the noun and sinning the verb. Set free from sin does not mean set free from sinning entirely the rest of one's life.

Sin the noun has been guaranteed in the flesh which is why the Holy Spirit circumcised our hearts ( where He lives and is joined as one in the spirit with us) from the body of flesh.

Romans chapter 6 and 7 uses the noun "sin" 48x times ( which speaks of the law of sin that is in our flesh ) and only once as the verb which is the action of "sinning".

Here is what Vine's describes this "law of sin" that is in the flesh - acting through the members of our body when we yield to it.

"a governing principle or power, e.g., Rom. 6:6; "(the body) of sin," here "sin" is spoken of as an organized power, acting through the members of the body, "

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.


The set free from sin (the noun ) is relating to not having to be subject anymore to the flesh because we have been sealed in our spirit in our inner man in Christ. - the new creation in Him.

The law of sin is in the flesh and will be there until we leave this earth. Romans 7:19-22. which is where we are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 : BUT "in the Spirit".

Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Now we are to walk by the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the flesh to do "its" desires. Romans 6:13

As our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ and what He has already done for us - the Holy Spirit transforms us and we live a holier life. This is all God's work but we participate in it with Him.

Have a great night everyone and play nice with each other.....

We have a good, good loving Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[joaniemarie]

I have done lot's of meditating on Romans 7. I love that chapter. Here is what I came up with.

Here is my take on Romans 7 and the flesh. It's long but there is a lot to it.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man which is now dead ( but his old habits and ways are still programmed in the flesh and our brains )- this is where renewing our minds comes in.

The mind and the fleshly brain are 2 different things. The mind of Christ that we have in us in our inner man needs to work through this brain which is of this earth.

When we die - the brain will be left in the grave but the real us will be with the Lord.

2) it is used when talking about self-effort as in Paul saying that he had no confidence in his ability.

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "law of sin" ( Rom. 7:23) .....these two are in cahoots together.

Flesh and the law/principle of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The law of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The law of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man which was crucified and died with Christ on the cross. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

We try to get life and purpose and meaning by the deeds of the flesh which is they are the opposite of life in Christ - where we get our life from Him only.

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my words

Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13

We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John.

Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount. He is in us now in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.

Sorry for the long post but as I said - there is a lot to this. I also have a post on how Vines's Expository Dictionary talks about the "law of sin" being an entity.

There is a difference between the noun "sin" and the verb "sinning" which is the action in Romans 6-7. It is used as a noun 48x times but as a verb only 2x times and it is for a specific reason.

AMEN!!! good post!!

 

[Cee]

This question to me is kinda funny.

Here's why.

This question is taken from Scripture found in John 16:8.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:


And like most "perceived" issues in Scripture, if we stop reading at v8, it appears Jesus is saying Holy Spirit is convicting believers of sin.

But, that's not what Jesus is saying.

Look at v9.

John 16:9 concerning sin, because THEY do not believe in me;

Jesus continues from v8, Holy Spirit convicting of sin is for those who don't believe in Him.

So already that disqualifies believers.

So what does Holy Spirit do to BELIEVERS?

Convinces them of righteousness (v10)

10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and YOU no longer see Me;

Why is this important? Because you're dead to sin. So Holy Spirit is convincing you of who you are not who you're not. If He convicted you of sin, that would mean you're a sinner, but you're not. You're a saint, a holy people, who have Holy Spirit living in them.

Most people already believe they are a sinner. What they don't believe is they are righteous in Christ. So they do a lot of sinning by faith.

BUT -

Just as good deeds didn't make you holy before Christ.
Sin doesn't make you you unholy in Christ.
Your deeds aren't why you're holy. His deeds are.
If your deeds made you holy, Holy Spirit wouldn't be one with you. Because you're not holy enough outside of Christ to be joined with Him.

Can you sin? Yes.
Should you sin? No. It's stupid.

That's why Paul says this:

Romans 2:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Paul shows here that believers CAN continue in sin... but should they?

Romans 2:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

If you don't believe you're dead to sin, a lot of Scripture won't make sense to you. Because you're still in doubt in regards to the power of the cross and who you are in Christ.

And THAT's why Holy Spirit is convincing you of your righteousness. Because you need for who you are. It's called growing up in the knowledge of the Lord.

 

[presidente]

[h=1]Hebrews 10:15-18[/h][FONT=&quot]15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

This question to me is kinda funny.

Here's why.

This question is taken from Scripture found in John 16:8.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:


And like most "perceived" issues in Scripture, if we stop reading at v8, it appears Jesus is saying Holy Spirit is convicting believers of sin.

But, that's not what Jesus is saying.

Look at v9.

John 16:9 concerning sin, because THEY do not believe in me;

Jesus continues from v8, Holy Spirit convicting of sin is for those who don't believe in Him.

So already that disqualifies believers.

So what does Holy Spirit do to BELIEVERS?

Convinces them of righteousness (v10)

10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and YOU no longer see Me;

Why is this important? Because you're dead to sin. So Holy Spirit is convincing you of who you are not who you're not. If He convicted you of sin, that would mean you're a sinner, but you're not. You're a saint, a holy people, who have Holy Spirit living in them.

Just as good deeds didn't make you holy before Christ.
Sin doesn't make you you unholy in Christ.
Your deeds aren't why you're holy. His deeds are.
If your deeds made you holy, Holy Spirit wouldn't be one with you. Because you're not holy enough outside of Christ to be joined with Him.

Can you sin? Yes.
Should you sin? No. It's stupid.

That's why Paul says this:

Romans 2:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Paul shows here that believers CAN continue in sin... but should they?

Romans 2:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

If you don't believe you're dead to sin, a lot of Scripture won't make sense to you. Because you're still in doubt in regards to the power of the cross and who you are in Christ.

AMEN to the 50th power...........I agree........you know....many get bogged down in their service because they see in their lives that they cannot measure up to God when they dwell constantly on how many areas they fail in.....like witnessing for Jesus....for a long time I felt inadequate because of my past.....and a man said to me....God has been using imperfect men to preach his perfect message from day one......Satan likes us to wallow in who we are in the flesh instead of who we are in Christ.......excellent points brother and I agree

 

[Meggido]

This question to me is kinda funny.

Here's why.

This question is taken from Scripture found in John 16:8.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:


And like most "perceived" issues in Scripture, if we stop reading at v8, it appears Jesus is saying Holy Spirit is convicting believers of sin.

But, that's not what Jesus is saying.

Look at v9.

John 16:9 concerning sin, because THEY do not believe in me;

Jesus continues from v8, Holy Spirit convicting of sin is for those who don't believe in Him.

So already that disqualifies believers.

So what does Holy Spirit do to BELIEVERS?

Convinces them of righteousness (v10)

10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and YOU no longer see Me;

Why is this important? Because you're dead to sin. So Holy Spirit is convincing you of who you are not who you're not. If He convicted you of sin, that would mean you're a sinner, but you're not. You're a saint, a holy people, who have Holy Spirit living in them.

Just as good deeds didn't make you holy before Christ.
Sin doesn't make you you unholy in Christ.
Your deeds aren't why you're holy. His deeds are.
If your deeds made you holy, Holy Spirit wouldn't be one with you. Because you're not holy enough outside of Christ to be joined with Him.

Can you sin? Yes.
Should you sin? No. It's stupid.

That's why Paul says this:

Romans 2:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Paul shows here that believers CAN continue in sin... but should they?

Romans 2:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

If you don't believe you're dead to sin, a lot of Scripture won't make sense to you. Because you're still in doubt in regards to the power of the cross and who you are in Christ.

I have to be honest....many of us said this same thing over in the not by works thread and did so many times, yet were promptly accused of preaching sinless-perfection...and that we were saying we did not sin anymore....

You are quite correct, the Holy Spirit can only convince a believer of their righteousness.....

 

[joaniemarie]

I like the bell analogy. rings true (pun intended)

Me too. The bell analogy is new to me as well. Just heard it in a Bible message this week as a matter of fact. There is so much to learn from the Bible and the Holy Spirit and other believers I'm so thankful for the body of Christ!!

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't think I fully understood this until your post Cee. No offense meant Grace777. Am going to copy this post, and go over it until it's part of me.



But, I do see why you say that if you aren't being told you are in error, then you probably are. To Grace777. My paraphrasing your statements of course.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have to be honest....many of us said this same thing over in the not by works thread and did so many times, yet were promptly accused of preaching sinless-perfection...and that we were saying we did not sin anymore....

You are quite correct, the Holy Spirit can only convince a believer of their righteousness.....

Do you even know why people perceive that about you and a few others? No mouthing just asking. Because the same people (Most) if not all teach a losable salvation that denies the promises of Jesus, states that Jesus fails in his mission and work and that Jesus cannot save to the uttermost, keep us by his power and FINISH what he starts......and if one can lose it, and teaches that they do not sin the obvious conclusion is that one must do something to keep it, maintain it, earn it which equals a works based, sinless perfectionist doctrine.

I am not mouthing, mad, upset, chiding, accusing just stating the perception that comes across.