Lets talk about Paul

[wolfwint]

Have you ever wanted to know the man Paul, who he was, what he did, and most of all how he thought? I understand that yes the Word is all we have to work off with him. There are some other books and writers that fill us in on parts we may not know. I have even been told, though never found or read them, that the RCC has records no other church has on Paul.
From some of my studies, I do know that the RCC does have an extensive archive, some writings that date back to around 50 AD if I remember it right.
I am hoping this will stay on the topic of getting to know Paul, and stay clear of any use of Paul to make points that may or may not be true. If I learned anything from my time in Biblical study, both in and out of the class room, it is that if one truly wants to make a point of almost any kind, turn to Paul. His writings can be read to mean almost anything a person wishes to find. Peter tells us this about Paul,
2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

This can be seen as a warning to us, that we should know the person, how Paul sees scripture, and just what parts of the Word Paul is calling scripture. It is only with this understanding that one can truly find the truth of his words. So lets get started.

It is a clear fact that Paul only had what many today call the Old Testament. It is from this book that Paul based his teaching. In his writings Paul quotes from or makes clear allusions to the Tanach 111 times. He references the Torah 46 times, the Prophets 42 times, and the Writings 23 times.
In relation the dead sea scroll's represent the following, Deut. 27 times, Isaiah 21 times, and Psalms 39 times. Indicating that Pauls use of the Tanach fits with the general perspective of 1st century Judaisms. (FN) from page 153of the letter Writer, by Tim Hegg.

Hi Rainrider, it is without doubt worth to make a study about Paul which helpes us in the way of follow Jesus. Because if we read his letters we find that one of his main goals was to fulfill the task which our Lord has given him. Preach and teach the Gospel.
I can not fully agree with your statement that Paul had only the OT as base for his teachings. This may be the case before he became Paul. But since he became a christian and the special task from the Lord Jesus, he also became informations directly from the Lord himself. So we dont know anything about his time in arabia ore his time in the third heaven.
So if you use only the OT as his base for informations you draw a not realistic picture from Paul.
And really I find it difficult to speak and teach about a person without knowing him realy. Whoever will do this, has to realize that it only can be a trying to do it.
I find it more fruitfull to read his letters and find out how much he loved the Lord, how much he was ready to suffer for the Gospel and the Lord. How much he loves the churches and believers. How he trust the Lord in difficult situations. How much he was against sin in the church, how much he was against false doctrine (f.e. the doctrine of the judaists) How much he fights for the truth. In this he is a role model for me!

 

[loveme1]

Take with a grain of salt. Paul is credited with raising the early assemblies from a group of sects to an bonified religion, which I feel a dubious credit for anyone to have.

I know that the early believers studied and learned and were taught fromt he Torah, the Writings and the Prophets, so they would have been more Israel than gentile, ergo being labled "Christian" may have been the turning point of making the new religion separate from Israel and the then Jews.

In my humble esteem, this could be the first major stepping stone to the great apostasy. It is in the Word that apostasy was already in existence in our forefathers' first days in Messiah.

I read this today and you post reminded me:

Acts 9


13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


It is sometimes thought Paul was sent only to the Gentiles so this stood out.

 

[unobtrusive]

Hi Rainrider, it is without doubt worth to make a study about Paul which helpes us in the way of follow Jesus. Because if we read his letters we find that one of his main goals was to fulfill the task which our Lord has given him. Preach and teach the Gospel.
I can not fully agree with your statement that Paul had only the OT as base for his teachings. This may be the case before he became Paul. But since he became a christian and the special task from the Lord Jesus, he also became informations directly from the Lord himself. So we dont know anything about his time in arabia ore his time in the third heaven.
So if you use only the OT as his base for informations you draw a not realistic picture from Paul.
And really I find it difficult to speak and teach about a person without knowing him realy. Whoever will do this, has to realize that it only can be a trying to do it.
I find it more fruitfull to read his letters and find out how much he loved the Lord, how much he was ready to suffer for the Gospel and the Lord. How much he loves the churches and believers. How he trust the Lord in difficult situations. How much he was against sin in the church, how much he was against false doctrine (f.e. the doctrine of the judaists) How much he fights for the truth. In this he is a role model for me!

It's too bad that when Paul was (supposedly) caught up into paradise that he heard things that were illegal to pass on. Paul also could have been talking about when he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus better than 14 years previous to his letter to the Corinthians, but after studying that, the timing seems to be off according to that event.

I've never been able to confirm this or that about it, but whatever Paul heard (if he actually did, or got second hand info), he said that legally, he had no right to share it. Look at how Paul describes this event.

2 Corinthians 12:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful (right) for a man to utter.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

First, Paul didn't know whether the man he was referring to, that was caught up into paradise, was a spiritual being or physical being. verses 2 and 3

Second, words were heard that were not lawful for a man to speak, so if Paul is talking about himself he was prohibited, and certainly didn't reveal those things that he heard while in paradise in any of his epistles. verse 4

Third, Paul is glorying in the one that was caught up into paradise, but makes it clear that he wasn't taking glory of himself. verse 5

2 important points...
1. So Paul knew a man that he boasts upon, and that wasn't his nature to brag about himself after his conversion for he was the "least," as he says of himself. Seems to have had to be somebody else.

2. This man (maybe Paul) heard words that are unlawful for a human to speak, so he couldn't talk about anything that he heard if he was the one that heard them. So what he heard could never be part of his ministry.

 

[wolfwint]

It's too bad that when Paul was (supposedly) caught up into paradise that he heard things that were illegal to pass on. Paul also could have been talking about when he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus better than 14 years previous to his letter to the Corinthians, but after studying that, the timing seems to be off according to that event.

I've never been able to confirm this or that about it, but whatever Paul heard (if he actually did, or got second hand info), he said that legally, he had no right to share it. Look at how Paul describes this event.

2 Corinthians 12:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful (right) for a man to utter.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

First, Paul didn't know whether the man he was referring to, that was caught up into paradise, was a spiritual being or physical being. verses 2 and 3

Second, words were heard that were not lawful for a man to speak, so if Paul is talking about himself he was prohibited, and certainly didn't reveal those things that he heard while in paradise in any of his epistles. verse 4

Third, Paul is glorying in the one that was caught up into paradise, but makes it clear that he wasn't taking glory of himself. verse 5

2 important points...
1. So Paul knew a man that he boasts upon, and that wasn't his nature to brag about himself after his conversion for he was the "least," as he says of himself. Seems to have had to be somebody else.

2. This man (maybe Paul) heard words that are unlawful for a human to speak, so he couldn't talk about anything that he heard if he was the one that heard them. So what he heard could never be part of his ministry.

Regarding his heaven expieriences I agree with you. (For me is no doubt he is speaking from himself, but of course I have no proof for this) But this is no proof that he has his knowledge only from the OT Scripture. A support for that is that you find the new testament teachings about the gospel not in th OT scripture. It was not revealed to the OT writers and prophets.

 

[loveme1]

I consider He is trying to declare but knows if he speaks plainly they would exalt him to which he does not desire so speaks as a fool but recalls his experience with not quite knowing how to relay it or even if he understands it....Paul suffered so much like the Messiah said he would..

just thinking out loud.. like we all probably have something we can not state because it could be took as a boast...

 

[miknik5]

I read this today and you post reminded me:

Acts 9


13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


It is sometimes thought Paul was sent only to the Gentiles so this stood out.

Great reminder

 

[miknik5]

I consider He is trying to declare but knows if he speaks plainly they would exalt him to which he does not desire so speaks as a fool but recalls his experience with not quite knowing how to relay it or even if he understands it....Paul suffered so much like the Messiah said he would..

just thinking out loud.. like we all probably have something we can not state because it could be took as a boast...

Paul wasn't happy about having to justify himself by giving evidence like these "super" but false apostles were doing

its why he spoke of "this man taken to the third heaven"

 

[JaumeJ]

Paul did state he was sent to the gentiles while Peter was to go to the Jews.

Paul was very instant in service to all people, and he was also quick to mention
his personal life in study of the Torah and chief among the Pharisees.

 

[loveme1]

Since we are talking about Paul I want to share this:

Acts 28


1And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. 2And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. 3And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. 5And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. 6Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.


Can you imagine them sat watching him waiting for him to fall down dead...

reminds me me of the story, not sure if true about the young girl who converted to Christianity from Islam and her family still being muslims were so upset the dad tries to poison her but she does not die and they all believed I think... GOD is amazing and nothing impossible..

Sometimes we overlook these little Marvells.. we know it is all the power of GOD at work.

Paul a devoted vessel fulfilling His role here..

All glory belongs to Heavenly Father and the Messiah our Lord.

 

[loveme1]

Paul did state he was sent to the gentiles while Peter was to go to the Jews.

Paul was very instant in service to all people, and he was also quick to mention
his personal life in study of the Torah and chief among the Pharisees.

So True and that is why I marvelled.. one of those read but not received moments.

 

[miknik5]

Paul did state he was sent to the gentiles while Peter was to go to the Jews.

Paul was very instant in service to all people, and he was also quick to mention
his personal life in study of the Torah and chief among the Pharisees.

That was a revelation which he received from the LORD afterwards and it was this revelation which made him go to Jerusalem to speak with the pillars before he went to preach to the genriles

hw wanted to validate this revelation so as to confirm that he was "not running this race in vain"

 

[miknik5]

That was when it was said by Paul that he receive their right hand of fellowship and OT was confirmed the grace whichnosul had received that he should go to the Gentiles while peter would preach to the Jews

 

[miknik5]

Galatians 2 explains this

 

[Locutus]

It's a common error that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles.

(Acts 17:17 KJV) Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

 

[loveme1]

I think we have to remember that Judah was one of Israel's son's.. so though they were not Jewish.. the lost children of Israel were scattered..

Did the Samarian lady say their Father Jacob gave them the well...

 

[unobtrusive]

Regarding his heaven expieriences I agree with you. (For me is no doubt he is speaking from himself, but of course I have no proof for this) But this is no proof that he has his knowledge only from the OT Scripture. A support for that is that you find the new testament teachings about the gospel not in th OT scripture. It was not revealed to the OT writers and prophets.

Paul worshipped according to the OT. Acts 24:14. Nevertheless, he didn't see the light until he went blind, and was converted. That doesn’t mean he believed in all that he was taught by the Pharisees either. Pharisees aren't all bad, Nicodemus was one of them, and so was John the Baptist's dad, of the tribe of Levi. With that said, Paul truly dropped the doctrines of men, but not his learning of the OT. That's fact.

 

[miknik5]

It's a common error that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles.

(Acts 17:17 KJV) Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

I don't think anyone implies that he kept his mouth closed from preaching to any and ever man

 

[miknik5]

Paul worshipped according to the OT. Acts 24:14. Nevertheless, he didn't see the light until he went blind, and was converted. That doesn’t mean he believed in all that he was taught by the Pharisees either. Pharisees aren't all bad, Nicodemus was one of them, and so was John the Baptist's dad, of the tribe of Levi. With that said, Paul truly dropped the doctrines of men, but not his learning of the OT. That's fact.

Paul counted all things as dung p

He was a Pharisee of Pharisees and perfect according to all the legal requirements of the law
but when GOD was pleased to reveal HIS SON in Paul, Paul understood that all things were as dung compared to the surpassing glory of knowing his LORD

 

[loveme1]

Acts 8

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.




The Scripture was perceived by those filled with the Holy Spirit.. above is a little marvel.

 

[unobtrusive]

It's a common error that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles.

(Acts 17:17 KJV) Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

I agree with you.

I think Romans was written to Jews and Gentiles of the first church located in Rome, wasn't it?

The Epistle to the Romans was written to Christians residing in the city of Rome (Romans1:7 and 15. Rome was the center of the Empire and was ethnically diverse. In the first century AD it had a population of around one million people in an area less than ten square miles. Of this large population, it is estimated that there was between 40,000 and 50,000 Jews in the city. The Jewish population dates back to the second century BC as part of the Diaspora. In AD 64 there was a large fire in Rome that led Nero to eject and drive away the Jews. This also resulted in the first major persecution of the Church.