Not By Works

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PHart

Guest
Do we all get it yet after 1800 pages?

These folks, PHart, loveme1, willybob, PeterJens, mj007 and others do not believe in the sufficiency of the work of Christ. They then do not believe the Gospel.

All they can do and teach, day in, day out is that which discredits the work of Christ and mitigates the true Gospel.
You haven't explained how continuing in the exact same belief in the sufficiency of Christ you started out with is at the same time not believing in the sufficiency of the work of Christ. No one has. No scripture, nothing. I'm just being told over and over that my continuing faith in Christ's sufficiency that I started out in on day 1 is now me not believing in the sufficiency of Christ but is me trying to save myself.
 
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PHart

Guest
Christ is enough, there is no such thing as striving to continue to believe.
How is it a works gospel to continue to believe and trust that Christ is enough? A scripture or two would be helpful in your explanation.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
You just haven't met one yet.
I have.
That is a bold statement!!

You are able to claim that someone you know has forfeited their salvation which means by your definition that God has withdrawn His Holy Spirit?

My word..... you have a real inside track on who is sealed and who has been unsealed just like a pan of lasagna

Well now can any of us ever compete with that ability? :confused:


Right. Ex-Christians do.



No. The return to unbelief all by itself will send the ex-Christian to hell.



That part will invariably follow the decision to return to unbelief. And without Christ the ex-Christian who no longer trusts in Christ as the only payment for his sin no longer has Him as the only payment available for his sin.



You just haven't met one yet.
I have.
 
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PHart

Guest
Do we all get it yet after 1800 pages?

These folks, PHart, loveme1, willybob, PeterJens, mj007 and others do not believe in the sufficiency of the work of Christ. They then do not believe the Gospel.

All they can do and teach, day in, day out is that which discredits the work of Christ and mitigates the true Gospel.
How does continuing to believe in the sufficiency of the work of Christ discredit the sufficiency of the work of Christ so as to make my trust in him a work of earning my salvation?
 
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PHart

Guest
It is impossible to forfeit one's salvation (eternal life) because then it is not really salvation (eternal life)
Was a winning lotto ticket that got lost not really worth a lifetime of winnings because it got lost? Of course not. But that is the flawed reasoning that so many people apply to eternal life.

The lost ticket continues to be worth a lifetime of winnings. I just don't possess those winnings anymore because I lost the ticket. The value of it didn't change because I lost it.
 
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PHart

Guest
That is a bold statement!!

You are able to claim that someone you know has forfeited their salvation which means by your definition that God has withdrawn His Holy Spirit?

My word..... you have a real inside track on who is sealed and who has been unsealed just like a pan of lasagna

Well now can any of us ever compete with that ability? :confused:

Like I say, you've never met anyone who had the Holy Spirit, then made a decision to go back to unbelief and now doesn't have the Holy Spirit. I have. It doesn't take some special ability to know a person who has done that. It's outside of your scope of experience, that's why you are sure it can't happen. That's not a good reason to be sure it can't happen.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Father, Your word is being assaulted again by ppl who want to toil their way to heaven. Now Your truth of the Christ's righteousness being imputed unto us is being denied by some on here. With what righteousness will they stand before You holy? Is it their own which is no better than a dirty rag?






Or are we clothed with the righteousness of Your Son?



Which is it Father?



Then to say that we are not clothed in Your Christ's righteousness is the epitome of pride. To say we can stand before You w/o Your Christ's righteousness as holy ppl is the epitome of blasphemy. Your Christ said “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."[Matthew 5:20] So please Father, open their eyes to your truth.



 
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PHart

Guest
....it is your dogma that I despise because it denies JESUS, the verbiage of the bible, verb tense, scripture in context and equates to a self saving, working for dogma that denies the simple truth that JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith he begins in ALL while saving to the uttermost and KEEPING ONE SAVED by HIS POWER......end of story.....

YOU and I will NEVER agree as long as you deny the truth listed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in the above bolded......
Seriously, how is my believing in the sufficiency of Christ me denying the sufficiency of Christ? It wasn't that when I first started the believing I'm doing now. Should I stop so I won't be denying the sufficiency of Christ anymore and instead by saved by the sufficiency of Christ--the sufficiency of Christ I stopped believing in?
 
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PHart

Guest
WHAT part of

BEGIN, FINISH and COMPLETE do you not get when it comes to faith and salvation?

What part of SAVED TO THE UTTERMOST and KEPT by HIS POWER do you not get?

IT IS HIS WORK and to believe as you do states clearly that JESUS did not begin, cannot finish, complete, save to the uttermost and keep you by his power......
Is there even the slightest chance that just maybe Christ does that (keeps me) through my trust in Him to do that? After all, that is what Peter says: We are kept for the Day of Salvation by God's power through faith (1 Peter 1:5).
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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AGAIN...you miss the mark.....

WHAT part of

BEGIN, FINISH and COMPLETE do you not get when it comes to faith and salvation?

What part of SAVED TO THE UTTERMOST and KEPT by HIS POWER do you not get?

IT IS HIS WORK and to believe as you do states clearly that JESUS did not begin, cannot finish, complete, save to the uttermost and keep you by his power......

THAT is exactly what you say by your stance regardless of how you twist it, embellish it and or play word games....
"who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Peter1:5

Belief is a gift of God, faith is a gift of God, and we are saved by grace, a gift of God. If you say, " I " must continue to believe no matter what, and if I don't I will lose my salvation, it is a lie and wrong soteriology. you are, "protected by the power of God through faith, (a gift of God), for salvation", 1Peter1:5. Dcon said it well, we are saved from "faith to faith" it is all of God.

Decisionism:

Decissionism in Christianity is the belief that a person is saved by coming forward, raising the hand, saying a prayer, believing a doctrine, making a lordship commitment, or some other external, human act, which is taken as the equivalent to, and proof of, the miracle of inward conversion. It is believed that a person is saved through the mere means of external decision and that performing one of these human actions also gives sufficient evidence of regeneration. Many who do not use an "invitation" still hold a form of "decisionism" that Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones called "Sandemanianism" (Banner of Truth Trust, 1987, "Puritans: Their Origins and Successors").

In contrast, Conversion is the result of that work of the Holy Spirit which draws a lost sinner to Jesus Christ for justification and regeneration, and changes the sinner's standing before God from lost to saved, imparting divine life to the depraved soul, thus producing a new direction in the life of the convert. The objective side of salvation is justification. The subjective side of salvation is regeneration. The result is conversion.

Attribute: Decisionism | Theopedia





 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Is there even the slightest chance that just maybe Christ does that (keeps me) through my trust in Him to do that? After all, that is what Peter says: We are kept for the Day of Salvation by God's power through faith (1 Peter 1:5).
You keep mixing what you do with God's power to save. It is the power of God who will save us. from faith to faith, the power of God to save.
 
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PHart

Guest
Mr Hart, I admire your patience...
Thank you. Christ has done a remarkable job of working that in me. The bottom line is, I love God and am alive in his presence, but to not walk in the fruit of the Spirit is to not be able to enjoy his manifest presence.
 
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PHart

Guest
It is the power of God who will save us. from faith to faith, the power of God to save.
We all know this, but it through the conduit of faith that one gets the power of God in salvation. Do you know what the power of God in salvation is? Are you not aware that it is only secured through believing in that power, not by doing righteous works? It is not secured by nothing at all as the church believes these days. It is secured by faith, and faith surely is no work of the damnable works gospel. But if I'm wrong about that please post the passage that says it is and I will adjust accordingly.
 
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PHart

Guest
"who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Peter1:5

Belief is a gift of God, faith is a gift of God, and we are saved by grace, a gift of God. If you say, " I " must continue to believe no matter what, and if I don't I will lose my salvation, it is a lie and wrong soteriology. you are, "protected by the power of God through faith, (a gift of God), for salvation", 1Peter1:5. Dcon said it well, we are saved from "faith to faith" it is all of God.

Decisionism:

Decissionism in Christianity is the belief that a person is saved by coming forward, raising the hand, saying a prayer, believing a doctrine, making a lordship commitment, or some other external, human act, which is taken as the equivalent to, and proof of, the miracle of inward conversion. It is believed that a person is saved through the mere means of external decision and that performing one of these human actions also gives sufficient evidence of regeneration. Many who do not use an "invitation" still hold a form of "decisionism" that Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones called "Sandemanianism" (Banner of Truth Trust, 1987, "Puritans: Their Origins and Successors").

In contrast, Conversion is the result of that work of the Holy Spirit which draws a lost sinner to Jesus Christ for justification and regeneration, and changes the sinner's standing before God from lost to saved, imparting divine life to the depraved soul, thus producing a new direction in the life of the convert. The objective side of salvation is justification. The subjective side of salvation is regeneration. The result is conversion.

Attribute: Decisionism | Theopedia





You are confusing the ability God gives as a free gift to know something is true (faith) with the believing that is then to be done in response to that free gift.

Faith is knowing something is true (Hebrews 11:1). Believing is putting your trust in that which you now know to be true. God does not do your believing for you, but he does give the supernatural ability--the faith--to know that what he wants you to put your trust in is real and true. And he gives loads of encouragement and help to us to do the believing he asks us to do through his gracious gift of faith, the ability to know the gospel is true that we can't see or know is true on our own.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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We all know this, but it through the conduit of faith that one gets the power of God in salvation. Do you know what the power of God in salvation is? Are you not aware that it is only secured through believing in that power, not by doing righteous works? It is not secured by nothing at all as the church believes these days. It is secured by faith, and faith surely is no work of the damnable works gospel. But if I'm wrong about that please post the passage that says it is and I will adjust accordingly.
You are correct faith is not a work, just a misunderstanding of terms, my apology.....:)
 
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2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The seal that seals the deal is this,that all who name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

It is obvious that we have to abstain from sin to be right with God,for sin separates us from God,whether we claim Christ,or not.

But some do not have the knowledge of God,and abstaining from sin is what seals the saint to inherit eternal life.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

By the Spirit we can abstain from sin,for there is no ways of the flesh there,because the person hates sin,and does not want sin.

If a person sins it is because they want to sin,not they cannot abstain from sin,and it is obvious that sin does affect our relationship with God,for that is the seal that seals the saints.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

They sin on purpose,and hold unto sin,and think they are alright with God,but they are not,and the sacrifice of Jesus cannot wash it away,for God will not take away what they want to hold unto.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Some have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and believe they are alright despite their sin,and reprobate concerning the faith.

They say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,but sin does affect our relationship with God.

They do not have the proper perspective of faith.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is greater than faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith works by love,which means we have to have love,before faith can apply.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

We are saved by grace through faith,so we have to have faith before grace can apply.

We have to have love,before faith can apply,for grace to apply.

Lack in love,lack in faith,lack in grace,and no salvation.

Charity is greater than faith.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity does not think an evil thought,and does not sin,and is not selfish,and not arrogant.

Lack in love,lack in faith.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul said without charity,we are nothing,and we err from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James said without charity,our faith is dead.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity,the love of God does not dwell in us.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

They left their first love,the love of people,which they were fallen,and Jesus told them to repent,and do the first works,or He would remove their candlestick out of its place.

Charity is greater than faith.

Charity does not think an evil thought,and does not sin.

That is the seal that seals the saints,that they depart from iniquity,but not all have the knowledge of God.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

These people did not depart from God,and Jesus,they went back to enjoying sin,the old lifestyle,and thus became dirty like a pig that was clean went back to the mud.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This is not talking about departing from God,and Jesus,but they fell to unbelief by the deceitfulness of sin.

If a person is saved,all their sins washed away,and they do not want sin,and allow the Spirit to lead them,and then go back to the old lifestyle,and enjoy sin again,they fell to unbelief,for those that truly believe,and know the truth,know not to sin by the Spirit.

That is a given that every saint should understand,for how do you not understand sin does affect our relationship with God,when Jesus came to take away our sins,for that is how much God does not want us to sin,and sin separates us from God,whether we confess Christ,or not.

A person does not have to depart from God,and Jesus,but the deceitfulness of sin causes them to fall to unbelief.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some people when they confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior,did not even depart from sin right from the get go,but thought they were alright by asking God to forgive them for past sins,but still held unto the ways of the world thinking the blood of Christ was washing them away,although they were holding unto sin.

These people did not even start in belief to fall to unbelief,because all along they thought they were alright enjoying the ways of the world,and it did not have any bearing on losing their salvation.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The seal that seals the deal,is everyone that confesses Christ has to depart from iniquity.

Charity is greater than faith,and charity does not think an evil thought,and does not sin.

Lack in charity,lack in faith.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Father, now it has been posted on here that Your Christ's cross is not enough to save sinners.



If the cross is not enough, then they must add to it, which then makes it a works based salvation. This then makes their salvation not finished by You and Your Christ's cross, but is continually...



There is nothing Father we can add to this cross, as it, and it alone, is sufficient to save Your ppl from their sins.



So Father, please bring them to the light of Your truth concerning their denying the cross is not enough.

 
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PHart

Guest
You see, TT, many are called, but few are chosen.

Many people know the gospel is true, you know, like the demons know the gospel is true. They've heard the voice of the Holy Spirit telling them and convincing them in their heart that it's true. This is the calling of God. But they don't then place their trust, their believing in what the Holy Spirit has shown them to be true. They aren't chosen on the basis of faith because they don't respond to the calling with trusting/believing. Instead they take false comfort in simply knowing the gospel is true, as if that is what saves a person. Not knowing that it is trusting in the gospel that is credited to them as righteousness, not simply being told that it's true by the Holy Spirit.
 
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PHart

Guest
Father, now it has been posted on here that Your Christ's cross is not enough to save sinners.
Christ's cross can only save all by itself when and only when you access it by faith--that is, your believing. The sufficiency of Christ is applied through faith. And last time I checked faith (believing) was in no way shape or form a work of the damnable works gospel as you people are insisting it is. In fact, Paul expressly contrasted believing with works to be justified. Do you have a scripture to show I've been wrong about this and believing really is a work of the damnable works gospel?
 
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