Not By Works

PeterJens · Sep 16, 2017

dc - I doubt you know what salvation is, so how can I explain whether it can be gained or lost.

It is not ours to gain or lose, but Jesus's to give. Do you have no fear or sense of humbleness
that you want to dictate things that are eternal and who has it and who does not?

Jesus is very simple. Follow me, believe in me, walk as I walk, speak as I speak and you will
have life.

If you are doing these things, amen, if not, judgement awaits.

I wonder why you want to bang on about your beliefs as if they are the only view one
can have. Maybe it is because unless everyone accepts this view, you believe they are
doomed to hell.

But my friend, how do you know I do not already believe these things and walk with Christ?

I suspect you are like the guy at the door to the church, unless you wear the right clothes
you cannot come in. You let anyone in, unless they think this particular minor concept one
way and not the other.

But my friend, it has no point or purpose to it, and is totally irrelevant.
Either you love Christ and follow Him or you do not. Maybe one day you will see this,
but I suspect not with your baggage that forces you to not admit you are carrying it.

PHart · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Is Hebrews 10--written to and about believing Hebrews--just blowing in the wind? Is the warning to not stop believing and be lost only theoretical and that just receiving the warning is enough to keep true believers in the faith? I once believed that. But then a close, tongue talking (the real thing) person knowingly and willfully abandoned their faith in Christ. Were they at a point of accountability such that they are not allowed by God to come back? I don't know. It's been 15 years this month. I'd like to think they made an uneducated and blind decision and it's not as a deliberate willful and thought out decision as it seemed and so God will let them come back.

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

PHart said:

I too am continuing to trust in Jesus and his finished work, just as you say you are. But for some reason me doing that is me trying to save myself, but you doing it is not.

It seems you and EG are leading the charge in regard to this OSAS thing and how works don't have anything whatsoever to do with salvation. Now I'm not being haughty or condescending here, but perhaps the problem here is the only Bible and it's interpretation you know is what you have been taught. You don't seem to have any of your own personal Biblical insights. You're simply parroting the popular teachings of our so-called great theologians of the Reformation.

The Hebrews 10 passage is a perfect example of how these supposedly great men have been just plain wrong. But when one reads the Bible for themselves, without instantly filtering everything they read through what they've been told and already agree with it, it becomes obvious that the church's propensity to lean on and trust in the teachings of men without investigating it for themselves is just plain wrong to do.

Now I don't know why the both of you reject the plain truth of scripture about this subject in preference to man's 'official' teachings. I don't know if it's because you are in the grip of a besetting sin, or sins, and don't want to believe that what we do will have an affect on our salvation, or because you genuinely think the official teaching is the truth and you just don't know better, or whether you're just too plain proud to admit you were wrong. I can't judge that. But it is very plain to us who do read the scriptures in the spirit of the Bereans, and who do test what we are taught against what the Bible says, that you are indeed resisting and rejecting plain Biblical truth about this subject. That much is obvious.

Perhaps you are like many and can not accept it's possible that the church could be so gravely in error about this subject on such a wholesale level. Well, consider how gravely in error and widespread in error the church was in regard to Luther's revelation. Why didn't the respected scholars and teachers of that day not know this truth that was right under their noses in their own scrolls? And consider how many respected teachers today teach Tithing, seemingly oblivious to the plain passages of the law that explain how you eat your own tithe sometimes, not give it away? How did they miss this??? Yet we esteem them as knowing more than us and that they invariable teach the only the truth. The problem is, we are too quick to accept what so-called knowledgeable teachers impress on us and we do not read the all of the Bible, and what we do read we only read through the lens of what we've been taught.

If you are honorable men of God you will at least consider what I've said here. Please accept my post with the graciousness and respect in which it has been written.

What you are missing is the simple truth that it is JESUS that KEEPS ONE SAVED by HIS POWER.....it is JESUS that begins, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in us....YOU do not believe this....YOU say that YOU must ABIDE to remain saved and that is where you are missing the mark.....HEBREWS 10 is not applicable unto SALVATION and it being lost or kept...CONTEXT, VERB TENSE, the word of JESUS, PAUL, ALL contradict your stance of believing that YOU MUST KEEP YOURSELF saved.....end of story....NO MATTER what YOU SAY....until you realize that it is JESUS that KEEPS you by his power and NOT you yourself you will remain in a self saving works based religion......anyone who states I MUST to remain saved is pushing a works based religion....the bible is clear...salvation is a one off event that is ETERNAL......

loveme1 · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

The New Testament was coming to pass to be here with us in this day also..

The Gospel was delivered to people in darkness before the writings we read were written....

The saints Keep the Commandments of GOD and Have the Messiah's Testimony.

context? The New Covenant where the Just shall live by Faith.. but if any many draw back.. but let us not draw back in to perdition.. but believe unto the saving of our souls...

GOD be thanked in all things and for all things.

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

PeterJens said:

dc - I doubt you know what salvation is, so how can I explain whether it can be gained or lost.

It is not ours to gain or lose, but Jesus's to give. Do you have no fear or sense of humbleness
that you want to dictate things that are eternal and who has it and who does not?

Jesus is very simple. Follow me, believe in me, walk as I walk, speak as I speak and you will
have life.

If you are doing these things, amen, if not, judgement awaits.

I wonder why you want to bang on about your beliefs as if they are the only view one
can have. Maybe it is because unless everyone accepts this view, you believe they are
doomed to hell.

But my friend, how do you know I do not already believe these things and walk with Christ?

I suspect you are like the guy at the door to the church, unless you wear the right clothes
you cannot come in. You let anyone in, unless they think this particular minor concept one
way and not the other.

But my friend, it has no point or purpose to it, and is totally irrelevant.
Either you love Christ and follow Him or you do not. Maybe one day you will see this,
but I suspect not with your baggage that forces you to not admit you are carrying it.

AGAIN...you refuse to answer, shift the convo, accuse and have proven exactly who leads you.......back on ignore.....you were the first one I ever put on ignore because you refuse to answer simple questions........good luck...like one has said....it is a huge colossal waste of time to engage you.

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

loveme1 said:

SEE....you like your fellow countryman cannot answer because it will expose your error....ONE last time....explain the following....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

I recommend taking your own advice....My statement is valid and applicable....tell me...how does the following verse apply to you under the New Covenant? AT the time given the OLD was still in force.....after the death of JESUS <--his name s JESUS....the NEW was RATIFIED....you do understand the implications of the NEW right....? Probably not!

And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them

PeterJens · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

My friend - name calling DUDE, pal,
verbiage - derogatory term for words
wise up - suggestion some has got it wrong

dc - let me say I accept your position. Would I want to follow your example, no.

What you seem to forget is we are all believers in Christ, yet you talk as if we are not.
You refer to doctrines and theology as if we do not understand the variations, we do.

Does it occur to you that you might be the one on the outside trying to break down the
door, and it is you who has shut yourself out?

When Jesus had His feet washed by the womans hair and His head anointed, did He say
this was works salvation, the woman was trying to earn her way or just an expression of
love and worship?

You stand as if on a judgement seat, Lording it over other honest faithful followers,
dictating and dictating to believers, declaring they are lying, not believing what they
believe and insisting they should change their beliefs because there is no other answer
to sin and the issues in scripture.

It does make me wonder what you actually are. I think like sticky tape, you stick on
to people and waste their time, repeating the same ideas as if repetition improves them.

It is probably the marine in you, standing his post no matter what. Its as if the gates of hell
are being held back, and its all down to you, these beasts who dare to suggest God called
them to walk like His son. No, really ......

PHart · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

This is just pure dogmatic rhetoric in every negative sense of the phrase. It's amazing that you are so closed off to any discussion about this subject that you can't even hear what I've said repeatedly about all these things you listed but simply choose to reject it without explanation. But I know this happens. Christians really do get closed off in their own little doctrinal constructs and won't so much as listen to anything else. I understand that completely. So be it.

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

PHart said:

This is just pure dogmatic rhetoric in every negative sense of the phrase. It's amazing that you are so closed off to any discussion about this subject that you can't even hear what I've said repeatedly about all these things you listed but simply choose to reject it without explanation. But I know this happens. Christians really do get closed off in their own little doctrinal constructs and won't so much as listen to anything else. I understand that completely. So be it.

This fits you well........^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

loveme1 · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I have answered the question but you do not perceive it...

PeterJens is my brother in Christ as are all that believe regardless of where they abide or what tongue they speak.. Love and Truth by the Grace of GOD.

PHart · Sep 16, 2017

PeterJens said:

He did say people like me are not in attendance at classes he teaches. I'm confident he would not allow me to discuss this with him in an open classroom setting.

"When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
[...]
29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent." (1 Corinthians 14:26,29 NASB)

I'm not claiming to be a prophet. I'm simply pointing out that the teachings of teachers are to be considered, and judgment made on those teachings within a meeting of assembled believers, and additional insight and revelation allowed. I'm looking for a church that operates this way, but none do. Instead we have this tradition in the church of dogmatic one-sided teachers and pastors who do not want what they teach to be challenged or examined. That is the very breeding ground of false teachings that eventually work their way through the whole batch of dough, polluting it. That is exactly what has happened in these end times days of the church. Dogmatic, unchallenged doctrinal rhetoric has destroyed us. Not individual believers, the assembly of us true believers.

loveme1 · Sep 16, 2017

Many believe they are protesting heresy based on doctrines of men by doctrines of men and the misuse of Scripture continues to this day..

The Messiah said to build ourselves on His Word for a very good reason.

PeterJens · Sep 16, 2017

Hey dc - I had a thought, you are a great guy, with a good sense of humour.
I admire your bravery in the armed forces, and the fact you trust God so much you keep
a weapon always close to hand, so you can blast away any poor sucker who comes to close.

Do you think this is like a war with soldiers, and you are picking them off, one by one.
You seem to have trapped on this one idea. Sinners with an entry pass to heaven are not
going to be denied by apostates.

The problem with this idea, is it is Christ who admits people through the lambs book of life.
It has never been down to us, or anything we do, or believe. God writes you in ok, not you
are out.

He gives a clue as to His opinion. Now God kills, destroys, obliterates those who go against
Him. So I suggest you pay attention to His opinion, as it is really the only thing that counts.

Obey Him. Just dig deep, learn the verses, let it dwell in your heart and obey Him.
Fail to do this, curtains. Now He is very, very, gracious, He even says it is actually easy,
it looks hard, but if you follow, it all makes sense. Now that is great.

But it appears to me, this is not the path you are walking so are an enemy and need to
be resisted. But the way we do this is with love. Because a great guy like you would be
brilliant healed restored and rejoicing in victory, real victory, honouring and serving the King.

So God bless you, and I pray God my open up your heart to the real design He has for your
life. And I mean this despite all your agressive and derogatory approaches now and in the past.

I know it costs you to fight this fight, so I counsel, rest in Christ and let love guide you.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Sadly yes, I hae, they have been around since Cain first started trying to offer God his self righteousness And they will be around until Christ returns.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 16, 2017

PHart said:

I too am continuing to trust in Jesus and his finished work, just as you say you are. But for some reason me doing that is me trying to save myself, but you doing it is not.

It seems you and EG are leading the charge in regard to this OSAS thing and how works don't have anything whatsoever to do with salvation. Now I'm not being haughty or condescending here, but perhaps the problem here is the only Bible and it's interpretation you know is what you have been taught. You don't seem to have any of your own personal Biblical insights. You're simply parroting the popular teachings of our so-called great theologians of the Reformation.

The Hebrews 10 passage is a perfect example of how these supposedly great men have been just plain wrong. But when one reads the Bible for themselves, without instantly filtering everything they read through what they've been told and already agree with it, it becomes obvious that the church's propensity to lean on and trust in the teachings of men without investigating it for themselves is just plain wrong to do.

Now I don't know why the both of you reject the plain truth of scripture about this subject in preference to man's 'official' teachings. I don't know if it's because you are in the grip of a besetting sin, or sins, and don't want to believe that what we do will have an affect on our salvation, or because you genuinely think the official teaching is the truth and you just don't know better, or whether you're just too plain proud to admit you were wrong. I can't judge that. But it is very plain to us who do read the scriptures in the spirit of the Bereans, and who do test what we are taught against what the Bible says, that you are indeed resisting and rejecting plain Biblical truth about this subject. That much is obvious.

Perhaps you are like many and can not accept it's possible that the church could be so gravely in error about this subject on such a wholesale level. Well, consider how gravely in error and widespread in error the church was in regard to Luther's revelation. Why didn't the respected scholars and teachers of that day not know this truth that was right under their noses in their own scrolls? And consider how many respected teachers today teach Tithing, seemingly oblivious to the plain passages of the law that explain how you eat your own tithe sometimes, not give it away? How did they miss this??? Yet we esteem them as knowing more than us and that they invariable teach the only the truth. The problem is, we are too quick to accept what so-called knowledgeable teachers impress on us and we do not read the all of the Bible, and what we do read we only read through the lens of what we've been taught.

If you are honorable men of God you will at least consider what I've said here. Please accept my post with the graciousness and respect in which it has been written.

Your putting faith in YOUR ABILITY to continue to believe. Not in Jesus ABILITY to keep you in your faith.

Instead of trying to defeat OSAS (I really hate that term) WHy don't you try to dig deep inside your heart and understand why you refuse to place your faiht in Gods ability to do what he promised he would do. Like PERFECT you. Like CONTINUE to perform a good work in you until the day of Christ, And to wash you and make you clean.

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

loveme1 said:

No you did not....try again.....still waiting on you to apply the verse under the New Covenant unto yourself.

Tell me...how does the following verse apply to you under the New Covenant?

And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them

eternally-gratefull · Sep 16, 2017

PHart said:

Yes, We are closed to the discussion that we have the ability to keep ourselves saved by our works, our continued faith, or whatever it is you people decide must be done on any particular day.

We are open to discuss what God has done, Is doing, and will do to keep his promise however. When you and you're buddies wish to start talking about those things, and not all your mighty works, Then we are open to it.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 16, 2017

loveme1 said:

so how many gospels are their?

dcontroversal · Sep 16, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

AMEN........because ALL workers for believe they MUST do something or KEEP themselves saved....

My bible states we are KEPT by the power of GOD...so...if I can lose it then the following must be true...

a. Jesus/God is weak
b. His promise to keep me by HS power is false

PeterJens · Sep 16, 2017

Who is a friend and who a foe?

My daughter pointed something out about her friends.
Some are friends of the moment, once gone nothing lasts.

After leaving school and going to university, she noticed who came to visit and who did
not. It surprised her, those who truly cared and those who were just along for the ride.

cc is not different, and some put on a show, and some are truly a blessing that stays true.

I have seen some get a good insight and then burn up under the pressure of conflict.
Nothing is certain and our fragility is often very apparent. There are a lot of disabled and
people in difficult circumstances here, so it is a blessing to encourage them in the love of the
Lord. So I do wonder in this light, why such strong unsubstaniated comments and lies are so
easily thrown about. Children in a fireworks shop is probably closer to where we are.

Not By Works

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