Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of YHWH underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favor? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people. It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Father.”

Thank God for the following word....it sets us free from legalism and erroneous applications of the word of God.......

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts

• the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
  "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More"the wider historical context"
  
  
  
  frame of reference, contextual relationship;
  text, subject, theme, topic
  "a quote taken out of context"
  
  
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  
  
  • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
    "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"
    
    
    
  
  
  
  

 

[PHart]

Yep, he had so great faith he lied about his wife, who was promised to have the promised child, so she would not be taken away, and abraham killed, Meaning God could not keep his promise.

If Abraham had Full assurance God would keep his promise, he would never have had to lie. He would have confidently went about his way knowing God would protect them.

Okay, so you think Paul was wrong....that he DID waver in the promise. I guess there isn't much else to say then, is there. You choose not to believe the Bible. I personally prefer to believe what Paul wrote. If he was wrong I guess everything else he wrote is suspect too. Which leads to an interesting point...

It's interesting that you can think Paul was wrong (for what you say directly contradicts him) but when you (erroneously) perceive one of us as thinking Paul is wrong about 'faith apart from works' you don't give us the same liberty of choosing to ignore what he wrote as you are giving yourself in regard to Abraham's faith. But let it be clear, no one here has been saying justification is by works. But if we had you should give us the same liberty of choosing to not believe the written word as you have given yourself the liberty of not believing the written word regarding Abraham's faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

im open my dear just not to statement like yours in regard to the Messiah's Testimony. The Messiah gives more Testimony through Revelation and all the New Testament is inspired Writings not just Paul.. yet you set yourself there. You should try reading and Believe the Messiah's Testimony then read Paul and all.. asking for understanding from the unseen Teacher...

Even the most hardened of Hearts can be pierced and replaced for nothing is impossible with GOD if w set our heart to believe.

I recommend taking your own advice....My statement is valid and applicable....tell me...how does the following verse apply to you under the New Covenant? AT the time given the OLD was still in force.....after the death of JESUS <--his name s JESUS....the NEW was RATIFIED....you do understand the implications of the NEW right....? Probably not!

And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

 

[AbigailZeke]

"If we take the 'text' out of its context, all we have left is 'con'."

Thank God for the following word....it sets us free from legalism and erroneous applications of the word of God.......

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts

• the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
  "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More"the wider historical context"
  
  
  
  frame of reference, contextual relationship;
  text, subject, theme, topic
  "a quote taken out of context"
  
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
    "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"

 

[dcontroversal]

MY error....the error is ignorantly rejecting the scriptural proof that must be denied and rejected to lose salvation...which you push like a street organ player with a dancing monkey.....like the following.....and your continued belief that YOU MUST DO proves your a works based salvationist....keep thinking you keep yourself saved...NOT happening!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

I want to reiterate for a few naysayers that are rejecting that a works based salvation is being pushed by some.....ANYONE who teaches a losable salvation that must be maintained, kept or facilitated by what one does teaches a works based salvation and in so doing, ignores, rejects and sweeps under the table the promises of God....

a. Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
b. Jesus saves us to the uttermost
c. Jesus keeps us by the power of God
d. Jesus holds us in his hand
e. We are in the Father's hand
f. We are sealed unto the day of redemption
g. We are born of incorruptible seed
h. We are a child by birth
I. Jesus will lose nothing, but rather raise it up the last day
J. Jesus said he will never leave us or forsake us
k. Nothing shall separate us from the love of God
l. Eternal means eternal when applied unto the life Given in Christ
m. Everlasting means everlasting when applied unto life and what God does
n. We are saved, justified and sanctified in Christ forever
o. We are not condemned because of belief into Jesus

etc.....

Your error has been in insisting that continued believing is somehow among the works that a works salvationist does in order to earn salvation. But then you turn right around and point out, for example, in this post in item 'o' above that we are not condemned because of belief into Jesus. Which is what I've been saying: Our continued believing is what makes it so we are not condemned.

If our works purchased our rescue from condemnation at the Judgment we'd all be in serious trouble. There would be no such thing as salvation. But as it is, it is our believing which continues that ensures our continuing salvation. As far as I can see, the only difference you have with me about this is that you are sure a believer can never stop believing. Well, that's fine. I don't think that's a matter worth arguing about because, ultimately, it is the individual believer himself who has to face that question when his day of Job's suffering tests whether or not he can stop believing or will continue to believe. I don't need to force my opinion about that on anybody. Their hour of testing when it comes, and it surely will, will show them just how possible it is to depart from their faith.

Whether or not they will act on the temptation to shrink back into unbelief in their suffering depends on the fundamental quality of the soil of their heart. Christians whose hearts are crowded by the desires for the pleasures and concerns of this life (soil #3), or who's hearts don't allow the word to take deep root in them (soil #2) are the ones for whom the deceitfulness of sin is likely to lead them backward into unbelief and cause them to be lost on the Last Day.

"...Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

...encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:6, 13-14 NASB)
​

From the above we see that sin has the potential to harden the heart and cause us to not hold fast our faith and hope in the promise of salvation we have received. The hour of suffering is what will open people's eyes up to the possibility of being able to shrink back in unbelief and be lost. If the roots of the word go down deep, and isn't being choked out by the love and concern for this world, they will be more prepared to resist and continue in the faith and remain saved. That is what we need to be telling the church, not that they can not shrink back in unbelief. Telling them they can never not believe is not how you prepare a person for the day of testing. Growing them up into #4 soil is.

 

[PeterJens]

Thats prety sad, you put the cross in as an afterthought. And including a lot of self righteous things (His this HIS that) and he liked it, which means he agreed.. I do not think anything else needs to be said,

Lol. Do you know the joke here, is Jesus and the cross are first in my life.
But then this testimony you give demonstrates your judgementalism and condemnation.

Thankfully I am not here to put words in one order or another, but just to share the praise
I have in our glorious Lord.

And what you are sharing is discouraging, it is like saying, to follow what Paul says is wrong

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

There must be some weird heartfelt emotions at play here, because there is no foundation
to express just as you do.

Rejoice in the Lord and praise His name.

Dear audience, EG feels an obligation to discourage someone he feels is wrong and needs
approval, so he is not going to give it. God bless you EG, the Lord and His ways can never
be contained or stopped, love flows to everyone willing to listen.

 

[dcontroversal]

"If we take the 'text' out of its context, all we have left is 'con'."

HAHAHHAHAHA not less than a few on here for sure.....workers for and salvation losers that must keep themselves saved....

 

[PHart]

Thank God for the following word....it sets us free from legalism and erroneous applications of the word of God.......

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts

• the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
  "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More"the wider historical context"
  
  
  
  frame of reference, contextual relationship;
  text, subject, theme, topic
  "a quote taken out of context"
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
    "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"
  
  
  
  

The context show us that the sanctified person in vs. 29 is a born again person. A born again person that, if he willfully walks away from salvation in the blood of Christ, will be subject to the condemnation of the enemies of God in the future (not the chastisement of the sons of God in the present):

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised."

(Hebrews 10:10,26-36 NASB)​

You want to play the context card? If you want, just read the emboldened parts to see the context of the passage that explains exactly that he's talking to saved people and warning them to not go back to sin in unbelief. Is context suddenly not going to matter in this case, or are you going to choose some other context in the hope it makes the context of these obvious and plain words 'not really' mean what they say?

And don't talk about how the failure of believing here is only in regards to rewards because you have insisted that believers can never stop believing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, so you think Paul was wrong....that he DID waver in the promise. I guess there isn't much else to say then, is there. You choose not to believe the Bible. I personally prefer to believe what Paul wrote. If he was wrong I guess everything else he wrote is suspect too. Which leads to an interesting point...

It's interesting that you can think Paul was wrong (for what you say directly contradicts him) but when you (erroneously) perceive one of us as thinking Paul is wrong about 'faith apart from works' you don't give us the same liberty of choosing to ignore what he wrote as you are giving yourself in regard to Abraham's faith. But let it be clear, no one here has been saying justification is by works. But if we had you should give us the same liberty of choosing to not believe the written word as you have given yourself the liberty of not believing the written word regarding Abraham's faith.

so the OT means nothing?

Did Abraham sin due to lack of faith or not?

Paul was not wrong, Look how great abrahams faith became, But abrahams faith was not always perfect,

 

[dcontroversal]

I was thinking about this statement and your interest in the answer.
You hate some attitudes and people in your past, so deeply this burns into your soul.
You feel you must identify them, expose them as evil unbelievers corrupting the church.

This is the same idea that drove the Spanish inquisition, the caused Saul to persecute the
church and is not part of following Christ.

People will come and go in their faith and words, I do not know who is real and who is
fake. But I am simply called to love them all and by my life show Christ is alive for all
who desire to trust and follow Him.

So it may appear people can lose their faith, and that all those who do so, were never
saved or they we saved but the word never got deep enough into their lives and they
chose to walk away, or they are all saved anyway. What actually matters is that I can
walk with Jesus, praising Him and showing love through good works.

So anything that excuses sinful behaviour is from the evil one. God is only in that which
is pure, Holy and good. Now the enemy and false teachers will always convince some to
blame this group or that group for problems, when the only problem in following Christ is us,
individually and it is for us to get right with God in the quiet place, alone.

Do you rest in Christ, Amen. Are you fearful of Christ that He will judge you because of
your abiding sin, you should be. We need to fight through these issues and seek help, let
brokenness and honesty lead the way and seek Gods empowering grace to make it through.

There are so many testimonies of deliverance when God has set the captives free, and testing
where patience and endurance are required. Love conquers all, and always will, because God is love.

It is our fragile nature, fluid, flexible, and compromised that is alien to the Kingdom.
Jesus, the Spirit and the Fathers nature is to love above all through the power of creation.
The cross displays His soul, who He is and how far He will go.

So praise the Lord for He is our saviour and Lord and we desire to follow and see His will
reign on earth.

Can you ever just answer the questions without a rambling diatribe of verbiage with no real substance....? SEE how easy this is....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Can it be lost?
Must it be maintained through works?
Does sin cause one to lose it?
Is it eternal?
Is it based entirely on faith?

a. NO
b. NO
c. NO
d. YES
e. YES

See how simple that is............your should try it....you might not catch as much heat as you do.....!

 

[PHart]

so the OT means nothing?

Did Abraham sin due to lack of faith or not?

Paul was not wrong, Look how great abrahams faith became, But abrahams faith was not always perfect,

He never lost hope in the promise of God. Paul said so. That doesn't mean he didn't sin. That means he never lost hope in the promise of God. If you think he sinned as the result of having lost faith and hope in the promise then you are directly contradicting Paul. You won't be able to wiggle out of this one.

 

[PHart]

Can you ever just answer the questions without a rambling diatribe of verbiage with no real substance....? SEE how easy this is....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Can it be lost?
Must it be maintained through works?
Does sin cause one to lose it?
Is it eternal?
Is it based entirely on faith?

a. NO
b. NO
c. NO
d. YES
e. YES

See how simple that is............your should try it....you might not catch as much heat as you do.....!

I learned from my own experience with determined truth resisters that this is why Jesus didn't engage his accusers at his illegal trial just before his crucifixion. There was nothing that he could say that he hadn't already said that would pacify his enemies because they were not questioning him to learn anything but rather to destroy him.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, when you say you need to have all of the following for redemption, then that's like saying it was never by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Amen....a works salvationist....ANY and ALL who say they MUST (anything) to remain saved teaches a works based salvation....regardless of how they twist, embellish, stir, mix, puree, blend, whisk and any other word of like caliber and order......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He never lost hope in the promise of God. Paul said so. That doesn't mean he didn't sin. That means he never lost hope in the promise of God. If you think he sinned as the result of having lost faith and hope in the promise then you are directly contradicting Paul. You won't be able to wiggle out of this one.

No one loses hope in the promise of God if they truly had it,

in spite of all their grave sines, that abraham, david and all the patriarchs commited,

people who end up against christ was never saved to begin with,

 

[dcontroversal]

I learned from my own experience with determined truth resisters that this is why Jesus didn't engage his accusers at his illegal trial just before his crucifixion. There was nothing that he could say that he hadn't already said that would pacify his enemies because they were not questioning him to learn anything but rather to destroy him.

I know you like the word DUDE, so I won't use it....so I will say it this way PAL...the only one resisting the truth here is you and your working for pals, Your very verbiage PROVES you reject JESUS and his work in favor of your works and ability to keep yourself saved....so......while you trust into YOURSELF and YOUR ABILITY....we trust into JESUS and HIS finished work....I suggest you wise up before it is too late.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I learned from my own experience with determined truth resisters that this is why Jesus didn't engage his accusers at his illegal trial just before his crucifixion. There was nothing that he could say that he hadn't already said that would pacify his enemies because they were not questioning him to learn anything but rather to destroy him.

so now peter is like Jesus, jesus spoke not a word to fulfill prophesy., and because his accusers contradicted each other, he did not have to say a word.

 

[dcontroversal]

No one loses hope in the promise of God if they truly had it,

in spite of all their grave sines, that abraham, david and all the patriarchs commited,

people who end up against christ was never saved to begin with,

Have you ever seen one like this guy.....He states very clearly that HE MUST KEEP HIMSELF SAVED and yet denies that he is peddling a works based false gospel....HE MUST REMAIN<---this is as false as it can be and flat denies....

JESUS STARTS, FINISHES, COMPLETES OUR FAITH
JESUS KEEPS us by HIS POWER

HERE it is in simple terms....

JESUS KEEPS ALL BELIEVERS SAVED BY HS POWER and HIS WORK on our BEHALF<--JESUS KEEPS US by HIS POWER

PHART KEEPS HIMSELF SAVED BY HIS OWN POWER and HIS OWN WORK<---I MUST REMAIN

 

[preacher4truth]

Can you ever just answer the questions without a rambling diatribe of verbiage with no real substance....?

Of course not, it would be the definition of insanity to expect otherwise.

What else can we expect from a person who refers to himself as a flower in a garden, but as to the cross it is not enough, that the imputed Christ righteousness is blasphemously referred to as a spray, and a neat little trick that doesn't work, that all others contrary to him are lost, and that security in Christ is an idol?

Why bother with that kind of drivel man? He'll just post Some kind of post about:

He is just a flower in a garden
It is all about his love and walk
Which he possesses, not others who trust in Jesus and rest
who do no work but live in sin, rest means sin
And all you others need Jesus, you do not have him
You are outside of him because you rest in his work
and to trust in Him securely is a practice of idolatry
because the cross is not enough, we cannot trust in His work or rest there
so, to trust in my walk, yea and amen, that is the fruit and isn't idolatry to love self and walk
and claim my works, humility, goodness, and of all this I possess
the other way to trust Christ alone is to mean you live in sin, none of you walk or do, you're lost
unlike me because I am humble, and do good works, and you do not
Amen hallelujah trust self and work and perhaps you will make it in do not rest in Christ
for that is idolatry

I mean, why waste any more time with that drivel?

 

[PeterJens]

Of course not, it would be the definition of insanity to expect otherwise.

What else can we expect from a person who refers to himself as a flower in a garden, but as to the cross it is not enough, that the imputed Christ righteousness is blasphemously referred to as a spray, and a neat little trick that doesn't work, that all others contrary to him are lost, and that security in Christ is an idol?

Why bother with that kind of drivel man? He'll just post Some kind of post about:

He is just a flower in a garden
It is all about his love and walk
Which he possesses, not others who trust in Jesus and rest
who do no work but live in sin, rest means sin
And all you others need Jesus, you do not have him
You are outside of him because you rest in his work
and to trust in Him securely is a practice of idolatry
because the cross is not enough, we cannot trust in His work or rest there
so, to trust in my walk, yea and amen, that is the fruit and isn't idolatry to love self and walk
and claim my works, humility, goodness, and of all this I possess
the other way to trust Christ alone is to mean you live in sin, none of you walk or do, you're lost
unlike me because I am humble, and do good works, and you do not
Amen hallelujah trust self and work and perhaps you will make it in do not rest in Christ
for that is idolatry

I mean, why waste any more time with that drivel?

God help you, because you surely need it.

 

[PHart]

I know you like the word DUDE, so I won't use it....so I will say it this way PAL...the only one resisting the truth here is you and your working for pals, Your very verbiage PROVES you reject JESUS and his work in favor of your works and ability to keep yourself saved....so......while you trust into YOURSELF and YOUR ABILITY....we trust into JESUS and HIS finished work....I suggest you wise up before it is too late.

I too am continuing to trust in Jesus and his finished work, just as you say you are. But for some reason me doing that is me trying to save myself, but you doing it is not.


It seems you and EG are leading the charge in regard to this OSAS thing and how works don't have anything whatsoever to do with salvation. Now I'm not being haughty or condescending here, but perhaps the problem here is the only Bible and it's interpretation you know is what you have been taught. You don't seem to have any of your own personal Biblical insights. You're simply parroting the popular teachings of our so-called great theologians of the Reformation.

The Hebrews 10 passage is a perfect example of how these supposedly great men have been just plain wrong. But when one reads the Bible for themselves, without instantly filtering everything they read through what they've been told and already agree with it, it becomes obvious that the church's propensity to lean on and trust in the teachings of men without investigating it for themselves is just plain wrong to do.

Now I don't know why the both of you reject the plain truth of scripture about this subject in preference to man's 'official' teachings. I don't know if it's because you are in the grip of a besetting sin, or sins, and don't want to believe that what we do will have an affect on our salvation, or because you genuinely think the official teaching is the truth and you just don't know better, or whether you're just too plain proud to admit you were wrong. I can't judge that. But it is very plain to us who do read the scriptures in the spirit of the Bereans, and who do test what we are taught against what the Bible says, that you are indeed resisting and rejecting plain Biblical truth about this subject. That much is obvious.

Perhaps you are like many and can not accept it's possible that the church could be so gravely in error about this subject on such a wholesale level. Well, consider how gravely in error and widespread in error the church was in regard to Luther's revelation. Why didn't the respected scholars and teachers of that day not know this truth that was right under their noses in their own scrolls? And consider how many respected teachers today teach Tithing, seemingly oblivious to the plain passages of the law that explain how you eat your own tithe sometimes, not give it away? How did they miss this??? Yet we esteem them as knowing more than us and that they invariable teach the only the truth. The problem is, we are too quick to accept what so-called knowledgeable teachers impress on us and we do not read the all of the Bible, and what we do read we only read through the lens of what we've been taught.

If you are honorable men of God you will at least consider what I've said here. Please accept my post with the graciousness and respect in which it has been written.