Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Okay just one question or two...is this measure of faith the one in Romans 12:3?

So then are you saying that non-believers are each given a measure of faith so they can be saved?

I personally believe salvation is open unto all, but not all will believe because men love the darkness and will not come to the light.....the bible is fairly clear that everything testifies of God including the invisible....it make clear that he would have all come to the truth, and his grace that brings salvation has shined down upon all men....having said that he equally knows ALL who will believe as well as all who will reject....and responds accordingly...Pharaoh is one such example....he allowed the guy to harden his heart like three times before HE (GOD) stepped in and hardened it even further.....

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I somewhat see what you are saying, however what I also see you are saying that there are two parallel realities that can occur depending on God's foreknowledge

One being that God already knows someone's response to the gift of faith and He denies them the gift,

Yet if He has never given them the gift to believe how can they believe?

This is such a weighty involved topic, I really do not think I can discuss it in an online environment...ultimately I do not think it matters with regards to eternal assurance of salvation since I do believe that it is by His finished work and grace that we are saved.

God knows what decision that each and every man would make...Judas is a prime example....is it unfair for God to refuse one the gift of faith if he knows ahead of schedule that they would not believe?

Remember...many are called but few chosen....and God has made the wicked for the day of evil.....There is a balance for sure...God would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, the grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon ALL MEN...unfortunately men love darkness and will not come to the light.....hence....there is nothing unfair about God giving me faith because I will believe and withholding faith from a man that refuses to come to the light....if that makes sense...

 

[dcontroversal]

Well I somewhat see what you are saying, however what I also see you are saying that there are two parallel realities that can occur depending on God's foreknowledge

One being that God already knows someone's response to the gift of faith and He denies them the gift,

Yet if He has never given them the gift to believe how can they believe?

This is such a weighty involved topic, I really do not think I can discuss it in an online environment...ultimately I do not think it matters with regards to eternal assurance of salvation since I do believe that it is by His finished work and grace that we are saved.

Amen.....and you know I agree fully with the assurance of salvation....once for all.....!

 

[TruthTalk]

Okay just one question or two...is this measure of faith the one in Romans 12:3?

So then are you saying that non-believers are each given a measure of faith so they can be saved?

I believe Paul is speaking to believers only in this passage, and to add to what decon and the preacher were saying, God does not send anyone to hell for not believing they go there on their own for rejecting Christ. God is fair and just, many won't eccept His offer.

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Rom12:3

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe Paul is speaking to believers only in this passage, and to add to what decon and the preacher were saying, God does not send anyone to hell for not believing they go there on their own for rejecting Christ. God is fair and just, many won't eccept His offer.

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Rom12:3

Just to make one point: people outside of Christ are already on their way to hell prior to "rejecting Christ" so they are not really going there "for" doing this. It's where they had already been heading. Even the elect were on the same path; Ephesians 2:3.

 

[UnderGrace]

Too funny, ...heavy ......I sound like I am in the 60's ..... perhaps I should have said complicated

I will say I find no comfort that God does not extend His gift to everyone if saving faith is a gift.

I was as undeserving as anyone else on this planet,

He brought me to a place where I could believe of that I have no doubt.... but when I heard the full gospel I believed it with my heart and mind as truth and accepted it for myself knowing there was nothing I could do to achieve God's Holy standard and I accepted that He had accomplished the work on my behalf.

It's all over Scripture.



Not sure why it's so weighty. Most are more secure in their false notion they chose God and have inherent faith than in the security and truth that God chose them and that faith exists outside of themselves. Romans 10:17 is just one text. Also Acts 3:16. Many more show faith comes from God unto salvation. Still have no idea why you'd see that as weighty when it glorifies God not man. Quite comforting to me.

Not even sure why you'd go study it since it's so heavy.

 

[TruthTalk]

Just to make one point: people outside of Christ are already on their way to hell prior to "rejecting Christ" so they are not really going there "for" doing this. It's where they had already been heading. Even the elect were on the same path; Ephesians 2:3.

A very important fine point and taken very well, thanks for pointing that out Preach......

 

[preacher4truth]

A very important fine point and taken very well, thanks for pointing that out Preach......

Thanks for the kind words dear brother.

Hey brother check this out: Catholics are known to teach the lost are not on their way to hell prior to this, and I know some Baptists that teach the same. So I say to them "Then don't preach to them, they're fine, they're on their way to heaven. Cancel all missions and all evangelistic effort."

Unfortunately too many churches act like they've done just that!

 

[UnderGrace]

One more question then, how can a person reject when they have no ability to choose?

If they were not given the gift of faith then they have no choice yet rejecting is a choice?

Just to make one point: people outside of Christ are already on their way to hell prior to "rejecting Christ" so they are not really going there "for" doing this. It's where they had already been heading. Even the elect were on the same path; Ephesians 2:3.

 

[preacher4truth]

One more question then, how can a person reject when they have no ability to choose?

I don't think anyone is saying they don't have ability to choose. Choosing though does not clinch salvation nor is it the cause, John 1:13; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3 &c.

If they were not given the gift of faith then they have no choice yet rejecting is a choice?

Salvation isn't a choice nor is it caused by a choice.

 

[1ofthem]

[FONT=&quot]John 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[SUP]13[/SUP] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Isn’t those verses just talking about receiving (accepting) him and being born again.

And we know it’s not God’s will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I think that pretty well says that all men have a chance and a choice in the matter. If it's not his will any man perish, then it's of their own will if they do. [/FONT]

 

[TruthTalk]

Thanks for the kind words dear brother.

Hey brother check this out: Catholics are known to teach the lost are not on their way to hell prior to this, and I know some Baptists that teach the same. So I say to them "Then don't preach to them, they're fine, they're on their way to heaven. Cancel all missions and all evangelistic effort."

Unfortunately too many churches act like they've done just that!

Never heard of such but I can believe it is so; My wife's home country is Thailand, they are 90 percent Buddhist and 2 percent Christian. My heart yearns for them to hear the Gospel and respond, but so many are comfortable in the merit based religion. They love to hear the message but not the messenger Jesus, funny. A missionary in the mountains can wait 2 years for one new believer. So many lost so little time. Hoping to make a return visit around Christmas time, God willing.

Thanks preacher...... keeping the Great Commission alive and well.

 

[preacher4truth]

Never heard of such but I can believe it is so; My wife's home country is Thailand, they are 90 percent Buddhist and 2 percent Christian. My heart yearns for them to hear the Gospel and respond, but so many are comfortable in the merit based religion. They love to hear the message but not the messenger Jesus, funny. A missionary in the mountains can wait 2 years for one new believer. So many lost so little time. Hoping to make a return visit around Christmas time, God willing.

Thanks preacher...... keeping the Great Commission alive and well.

I've heard most Buddhists don't believe in God (or a god). Have you heard this?

 

[shrume]

I don't think anyone is saying they don't have ability to choose.

Regarding salvation, Calvinists are saying exactly that.

Choosing though does not clinch salvation

Faith does.

nor is it the cause

Once a person has heard the gospel, that person has the free will ability to choose to believe it, and once he does, he becomes saved.

John 1:13;

12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"which were" in v13 should be "who was" and it refers back to "his name" in v12. Jesus Christ was born, not of bloods (it's plural in the Greek), nor of the will of flesh or man, but of God. IOW God sent Jesus Christ into the world by HIS will and not man's will.

James 1:18;

James 1:
18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The verse is not stating that God decided which individual people He would beget, but it is speaking collectively: God decided to beget Christians. That happens when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it, something anyone can do.

1 Peter 1:3 &c.

1 Pet 1:
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This should be understood the same as James 1:18. The "us" is collective, not individual.

Salvation isn't a choice nor is it caused by a choice.

Salvation is a choice and it is initiated by choice.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

 

[shrume]

Thanks preacher...... keeping the Great Commission alive and well.

When you get right down to it, Calvinists don't really believe in the great commission. They think only those God has pre-selected will be saved.

What's the point of sharing the gospel if God has already determined who will be saved?

We are to share the gospel so people have a chance to hear it, so they can choose to believe it (Rom 10:9-17).

 

[1ofthem]

Regarding salvation, Calvinists are saying exactly that.


Faith does.


Once a person has heard the gospel, that person has the free will ability to choose to believe it, and once he does, he becomes saved.


12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"which were" in v13 should be "who was" and it refers back to "his name" in v12. Jesus Christ was born, not of bloods (it's plural in the Greek), nor of the will of flesh or man, but of God. IOW God sent Jesus Christ into the world by HIS will and not man's will.


James 1:
18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The verse is not stating that God decided which individual people He would beget, but it is speaking collectively: God decided to beget Christians. That happens when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it, something anyone can do.


1 Pet 1:
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This should be understood the same as James 1:18. The "us" is collective, not individual.


Salvation is a choice and it is initiated by choice.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

Amen...Nice Job with rightly dividing the Word of God...Thanks for posting the scriptures as well. I like it when I can see the scriptures and not just Chapter and verse without the scripture...

 

[Zi]

Also so those who choose not to accept it can be without excuse

When you get right down to it, Calvinists don't really believe in the great commission. They think only those God has pre-selected will be saved.

What's the point of sharing the gospel if God has already determined who will be saved?

We are to share the gospel so people have a chance to hear it, so they can choose to believe it (Rom 10:9-17).

 

[VCO]

A small question. Who are you? Do you think anyone can take you seriously
with this kind of attitude? No content, no points, just attitude.

Reminds me of two guys squaring off, except it is only one jumped up amateur preacher
punching above his weight, but then at least you try, .... Amusing but no impact ......

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

And where does that kind of LOVE come from?


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.



Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one {includes self} will snatch them out of My hand.


POINT: It is NOT ETERNAL if you can lose it.

 

[VCO]

When you get right down to it, Calvinists don't really believe in the great commission. They think only those God has pre-selected will be saved.

What's the point of sharing the gospel if God has already determined who will be saved?

We are to share the gospel so people have a chance to hear it, so they can choose to believe it (Rom 10:9-17).

Yeah, and then several people have accused me of being a Calvinist, when in reality I reject two of the five points of Calvinism. Because of that Calvinists and Arminians will not listen to anything I post. I guess all anyone can call me is a born again Christian. I never did like denominational and dogma TITLES anyway, I even attend a non-Denominational Community Church.

Praise the Lord.

 

[preacher4truth]

When you get right down to it, Calvinists don't really believe in the great commission.,

Not true we believe it and understand it more than our slanderers do.

They think only those God has pre-selected will be saved.,

Only those elected will be saved, so yes, we believe Scripture in that He "pre-selected" all whom He ordained to eternal life. That truth troubles you.

the point of sharing the gospel if God has already determined who will be saved?

We Calvinists do it because the Lord instructed us to. We like sheep hear His voice and follow Him. You say we don't.

We are to share the gospel so people have a chance to hear it, so they can choose to believe it (Rom 10:9-17).

Yes for the sake of the elect, 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Looks like Paul was a "Calvinist" too. You gotta hate that and try to undo that Scripture.