Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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The implication here is, "So what if I don't clean and maintain this house? Will it be taken from me?"
I suppose everyone here will say "no" but the stranger will probably not like it.
The fact, however, remains that the house is still yours.
If we take that this stranger is God, a lot more depth will be added in this example.
God is not like man, that he will be disappointed in what He knew man could never attain. (righteousness)
And God is not like man, that he is unable to finish the work he started and promised to finish. (holiness)
I suppose everyone here will say "no" but the stranger will probably not like it.
The fact, however, remains that the house is still yours.
If we take that this stranger is God, a lot more depth will be added in this example.
God is not like man, that he will be disappointed in what He knew man could never attain. (righteousness)
And God is not like man, that he is unable to finish the work he started and promised to finish. (holiness)
This is proof of 1 Corinthians 15:56
"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." Not grace
People who received God's UNCONDITIONAL salvation are given a new heart. Ezekiel 36:26
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I think the reason some people don't believe that our righteousness is imputed (meaning: ascribed, credited, as derived from another) to us is because of the FEAR THAT PEOPLE WILL KEEP ON SINNING.
That's human logic that denies what the bible says. The power of sin is the law (requiring people to work work work) NOT IN THE FREEDOM THAT JESUS GAVE US.
"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." Not grace
People who received God's UNCONDITIONAL salvation are given a new heart. Ezekiel 36:26
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I think the reason some people don't believe that our righteousness is imputed (meaning: ascribed, credited, as derived from another) to us is because of the FEAR THAT PEOPLE WILL KEEP ON SINNING.
That's human logic that denies what the bible says. The power of sin is the law (requiring people to work work work) NOT IN THE FREEDOM THAT JESUS GAVE US.
I see that eternally-gratefull, dcontroversal, UnderGrace, TruthTalk agree with you on this point, but
Are you all sure that people would never do such things for their own amusement? How can you be so sure?
Are you saying that no-one on this site acts low-life? There are no defilers here?
Do you know what a defiler is? For a start, PeterJens is not what a defiler is. He means well, he has his points of view, his opinions, nothing wrong with that, and he tries to respond humbly, sometimes lacking (although not requiring) the defensive capability to deal with such intellectualised (ungodly) attacks. But there is a problem with people like him, to vipers. So I always pay close attention to those who circle someone like PeterJens and poke him with sticks. They look for cracks in what he says so that they can bite him.
People like this never act alone. Think about how bullies work, they rarely act alone, they survive only because they have the support of the people around them. Without that they are the nothing that they have chosen to be, in how they conduct themselves as a loving human being.
Jesus didn't refer to a viper, but a brood of vipers. Without the brood, vipers do not really have any strength.
So does the form of a bully do things for amusement? How does a bully choose their victim? They often feel the need for someone they can 'talk down to' because they find it uplifting, or, in the ungodly sense, amusing. Even if on the other side of the coin, it is beset with anger, because most often a bully has issues with anger.
Considering what PeterJens has had to put up with, I would say he has a sound temperament.
I can only inspire a thought one has not had before, that is all. It would be nice to inspire someone that they are going to make an effort to be a more loving person from now on. I can only put the words out there.
Are you all sure that people would never do such things for their own amusement? How can you be so sure?
Are you saying that no-one on this site acts low-life? There are no defilers here?
Do you know what a defiler is? For a start, PeterJens is not what a defiler is. He means well, he has his points of view, his opinions, nothing wrong with that, and he tries to respond humbly, sometimes lacking (although not requiring) the defensive capability to deal with such intellectualised (ungodly) attacks. But there is a problem with people like him, to vipers. So I always pay close attention to those who circle someone like PeterJens and poke him with sticks. They look for cracks in what he says so that they can bite him.
People like this never act alone. Think about how bullies work, they rarely act alone, they survive only because they have the support of the people around them. Without that they are the nothing that they have chosen to be, in how they conduct themselves as a loving human being.
Jesus didn't refer to a viper, but a brood of vipers. Without the brood, vipers do not really have any strength.
So does the form of a bully do things for amusement? How does a bully choose their victim? They often feel the need for someone they can 'talk down to' because they find it uplifting, or, in the ungodly sense, amusing. Even if on the other side of the coin, it is beset with anger, because most often a bully has issues with anger.
Considering what PeterJens has had to put up with, I would say he has a sound temperament.
I can only inspire a thought one has not had before, that is all. It would be nice to inspire someone that they are going to make an effort to be a more loving person from now on. I can only put the words out there.
I love this...I am feeling so week today, struggling with a few things, feeling very tearful, very sensitive, not sure why, even reading my bible am struggling, trying to finish reading JOHN and it feels my eyes are blind, it`s hurting me so much, not sure where to post how I feel, then I listened to this and it just reminded me that God knows where I am , He can turn my darkness into light, thank you for this song, very uplifting...xox...
U
Romans 9 the defense by Paul that God has not cast away His people, the Jews
In context Paul quotes
Exodus 33:18-20
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live
God is not speaking about showing mercy and compassion regarding personal salvation.
He is responding to Moses’ request to behold God’s glory. In other words, God is informing Moses that He will grant Moses’ request, not because of Moses’ merit but because God has mercy and compassion upon Moses.
Paul uses this story to remind and draw a parallel, God has revealed His glory, the Messiah, and His gospel message through the Jewish nation. Just as Moses alone beheld the glory and goodness of God and was sent to share it with the others, so also God elected the nation of Israel alone to receive His Word and His promise and to share it with the other nations. God granted the Jews a special mercy by electing them to be the bearers of His Word to the world.
Then Paul says
Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.
In context Paul quotes
Exodus 33:18-20
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live
God is not speaking about showing mercy and compassion regarding personal salvation.
He is responding to Moses’ request to behold God’s glory. In other words, God is informing Moses that He will grant Moses’ request, not because of Moses’ merit but because God has mercy and compassion upon Moses.
Paul uses this story to remind and draw a parallel, God has revealed His glory, the Messiah, and His gospel message through the Jewish nation. Just as Moses alone beheld the glory and goodness of God and was sent to share it with the others, so also God elected the nation of Israel alone to receive His Word and His promise and to share it with the other nations. God granted the Jews a special mercy by electing them to be the bearers of His Word to the world.
Then Paul says
Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.
Simply amazed that several of you here would give a "like" to this lie with no regard to several on here who hold to Reformed doctrine.
We "Calvinists" most certainly believe in preaching the Gospel and do just that. In fact we rest assured of our efforts, knowing God has people out there He chose to save; Acts 18:10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:8 &c.
That you all took time to like the above slander is unfortunate, propagating a lie, sowing discord and divisive. Certainly you're proud of your decision to give props to a lie, correct?
We "Calvinists" most certainly believe in preaching the Gospel and do just that. In fact we rest assured of our efforts, knowing God has people out there He chose to save; Acts 18:10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:8 &c.
That you all took time to like the above slander is unfortunate, propagating a lie, sowing discord and divisive. Certainly you're proud of your decision to give props to a lie, correct?
My view on election
God predetermined before the casting down of the world that ALL who come to him through his Son will be chosen (elected) to everlasting life.
I believe salvation is open unto all men
Everything testifies of God including the invisible
God has built into every man a conscience which is the initial divine spark
God would have all men to be saved
The grace of God that bring salvation has shined down upon all mankind
Many are called, but few chosen<---MAKES me think of Roman ruler...Thou almost persuade me to become a Christian and the rich young man who walked away sorrowful
Only those who acknowledge Jesus in faith will be chosen
The majority of men will die lost because they love darkness and will not come to the light
God knows the choice everyman will make
Not all men have faith
Faith is of or from God
FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
God predetermined before the casting down of the world that ALL who come to him through his Son will be chosen (elected) to everlasting life.
I believe salvation is open unto all men
Everything testifies of God including the invisible
God has built into every man a conscience which is the initial divine spark
God would have all men to be saved
The grace of God that bring salvation has shined down upon all mankind
Many are called, but few chosen<---MAKES me think of Roman ruler...Thou almost persuade me to become a Christian and the rich young man who walked away sorrowful
Only those who acknowledge Jesus in faith will be chosen
The majority of men will die lost because they love darkness and will not come to the light
God knows the choice everyman will make
Not all men have faith
Faith is of or from God
FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
I'm not sure, but I think you have me on ignore so you may not see this reply but here goes nothing anyways, I guess...
When I like a post it does not mean that I'm agreeing with every single word of it. Here is what I am agreeing with from that post, though:
I am not completely sure what a Calvinist believes because every time I have tried to have a discussion with one they say that I am lying or attacking them just by asking questions. So from my experience, I've learnt to quit asking them any questions.
When I like a post it does not mean that I'm agreeing with every single word of it. Here is what I am agreeing with from that post, though:
I am not completely sure what a Calvinist believes because every time I have tried to have a discussion with one they say that I am lying or attacking them just by asking questions. So from my experience, I've learnt to quit asking them any questions.
U
Yes I was agreeing with the same portion......so they can choose to believe
Amen!!
The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
Amen!!
The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I'm not sure, but I think you have me on ignore so you may not see this reply but here goes nothing anyways, I guess...
When I like a post it does not mean that I'm agreeing with every single word of it. Here is what I am agreeing with from that post, though:
I am not completely sure what a Calvinist believes because every time I have tried to have a discussion with one they say that I am lying or attacking them just by asking questions. So from my experience, I've learnt to quit asking them any questions.
When I like a post it does not mean that I'm agreeing with every single word of it. Here is what I am agreeing with from that post, though:
I am not completely sure what a Calvinist believes because every time I have tried to have a discussion with one they say that I am lying or attacking them just by asking questions. So from my experience, I've learnt to quit asking them any questions.
P
But he does extend it to everyone. It's just that most choose to not believe what God's gift of 'knowing' (see Hebrews 11:1) has shown them to be true and so they reject the gift of faith and do not retain it in believing and are lost. The testimony of the Holy Spirit in the world is how faith (the ability to know the gospel you can't see is true) comes to all people so they can believe what the power of faith has shown them to be true and be saved. Some people hold fast the testimony of the Holy Spirit in believing, while most reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit and do not retain that testimony in themselves:
This gives meaning to the Bible exhortations to retain and hold fast (that is, believe) the word of the gospel. Only people who hold fast onto the gospel message in believing will be saved on the Day of Judgment. They are saved now, that's not in dispute. But to remain saved and pass through the coming Judgment safely they must continue to hold fast in the believing they began on the first day:.
Some say you'll always believe because it's God's believing in you, not yours. No, it's God's faith in you, we do the trusting/believing in response to the testimony of faith that God has placed into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, if we so choose to believe and keep believing what God has shown us to be true by the supernatural gift of faith.
The free gift is the ability to believe, but the believing part is our responsibility. But even in that God provides loads of grace and encouragement to continue in our believing. But the bottom line as evidenced by the passages above is we are to continue to believe in order to continue to have the promise of deliverance and salvation on the Day of Wrath.
And you will find no passage, or even the hint, that the 'work' of believing is somehow you or I trying to work our way into the kingdom in a works gospel. What you will find are passages of scripture that clearly show that believing is in fact the very thing that you must do, and continue to do, in order to receive the kingdom, and which is in very stark contrast to working or earning our way into the kingdom through our works of righteousness.
It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself (he retains it in believing); the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. (1 John 5:6,9-10 NASB)
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself (he retains it in believing); the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. (1 John 5:6,9-10 NASB)
This gives meaning to the Bible exhortations to retain and hold fast (that is, believe) the word of the gospel. Only people who hold fast onto the gospel message in believing will be saved on the Day of Judgment. They are saved now, that's not in dispute. But to remain saved and pass through the coming Judgment safely they must continue to hold fast in the believing they began on the first day:.
"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)
"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)
"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)
"14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)
"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)
"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)
"14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)
"22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)
Some say you'll always believe because it's God's believing in you, not yours. No, it's God's faith in you, we do the trusting/believing in response to the testimony of faith that God has placed into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, if we so choose to believe and keep believing what God has shown us to be true by the supernatural gift of faith.
The free gift is the ability to believe, but the believing part is our responsibility. But even in that God provides loads of grace and encouragement to continue in our believing. But the bottom line as evidenced by the passages above is we are to continue to believe in order to continue to have the promise of deliverance and salvation on the Day of Wrath.
And you will find no passage, or even the hint, that the 'work' of believing is somehow you or I trying to work our way into the kingdom in a works gospel. What you will find are passages of scripture that clearly show that believing is in fact the very thing that you must do, and continue to do, in order to receive the kingdom, and which is in very stark contrast to working or earning our way into the kingdom through our works of righteousness.
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P
I left a forum to come to this one for a couple of reasons, and a very big one was two Calvinists came into the board with a seriously arrogant and determined and unmovable Calvinist attitude. The anger at daring to question the doctrine was sickening, and they made it clear that they did not want to discuss it, but as you can guess they were all too often willing to state their stance on the subject. It cast a very ugly cloud over the whole board, especially when one of them became a mod. I tried to reach out in peace to them but I could sense it was not being received. I couldn't stand the atmosphere anymore. I left. There were other issues too, but that was a big one.