Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
It is crazy, I stand before God, all my sin is forgiven, He looks at my works, and says depart from me, for I knew you at one time, but you lost faith in me, so I left you go, You should have kept trusting me. But you did not, so depart!
"But God you promised you would never let go"
God reply, I did, But you pulled yourself away from me, I tried to hold on tight, but you overpowered me. I could not hold on anymore.
E
Then God made a mistake, and gave you something he called free, and then because you did not earn it. Took it away,
You can not give a gift back, it is still yours, You may fail to be blessed by the gift, because it is not in your hands and your not using it, but it is still yours. The owner does not take it back.
The warning are not for believers. They are for non believers who are in the church who have not yet taken that step,. Paul and John both speak about how we are not the ones who fall to perdition, we are not the ones who walk away, we are not the ones who need to be taught,
You never assume each person in your body are true believers, you must always give a warning to all, even though the few are the ones who need to hear it, because you may not know who they are.
You can not give a gift back, it is still yours, You may fail to be blessed by the gift, because it is not in your hands and your not using it, but it is still yours. The owner does not take it back.
The warning are not for believers. They are for non believers who are in the church who have not yet taken that step,. Paul and John both speak about how we are not the ones who fall to perdition, we are not the ones who walk away, we are not the ones who need to be taught,
You never assume each person in your body are true believers, you must always give a warning to all, even though the few are the ones who need to hear it, because you may not know who they are.
E
The important part is what you left out.,
The worker will say since the word believe is "present tense: it means it is an ongoing thing, if at any time, belief stops. They the shall be saved is null and voic.,
the part they miss out, is that once we believe, we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
if I have eternal life. Then that life can never be lost, As jesus said in john 6. I will never die, I will live forever (that is eternal life) and thus I will be raised on the last day (not delivered for judgment)
if that part was left out, they may have an argument, but thge term, has eternal life destroys it, Because if I have eternal life, and lose it, then it was never eternal life.
E
I want to make sure I understand what he is saying before I pass judgment bro. It sounds like he has heard some of the opposition, and calling into question some things, I want to try to help him, and see what is going on, instead of judge him and cause him to get defensive and not hear a word I say.
P
I'm on record as saying faith is entirely a gracious gift from God. What you're not getting is faith is the free gift that is given to us so we can then believe/trust in the gospel. He gives us the faith to then believe. He does not do our believing for us. He gives us the necessary faith (the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true) upon which we then do our believing and trusting.
Simply knowing the gospel is true won't save a flea. Even Christ rejecters knew when God called them that the gospel was true. The Holy Spirit showed them that. But they have chosen to reject faith (the power to do the believing/trusting God requires), and are not saved. It's the believing part that does the justifying, not simply knowing the gospel is true through the power of faith.
Okay, good. You see the difference between 'faith' and 'believing' that I just explained. Actually, you probably don't, but if you look at your own quote above you can see that even you are unconsciously making the distinction between what God places in the heart (faith--the supernatural knowledge that the gospel is true) and the believing that you do in response to the revelation that God gives as a free gift.
Just having the Holy Spirit tell you the gospel is true (faith) isn't enough. That's hearing only. It can't save anybody. It's believing/trusting in what you hear that justifies/saves. There are lots of people who hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit who shows them the gospel is true but then who never respond in trust to that which the Holy Spirit proved to them is true. But they go on in life thinking they are saved nonetheless. They agree that the gospel is true, but they never place their trust in it and are saved. But they are quite sure that the knowing alone is enough to justify/save them. And so back to their old lives they go, unchanged, untransformed by the gospel with only the outer dressing of the Christian life to show for what God revealed to them by faith. No change of character, no deliverance from sin, no progress towards Christ-likeness. Just the same ol' person they were before with some church attendance and a profession of faith thrown in to suave the conscience.
Simply knowing the gospel is true won't save a flea. Even Christ rejecters knew when God called them that the gospel was true. The Holy Spirit showed them that. But they have chosen to reject faith (the power to do the believing/trusting God requires), and are not saved. It's the believing part that does the justifying, not simply knowing the gospel is true through the power of faith.
Okay, good. You see the difference between 'faith' and 'believing' that I just explained. Actually, you probably don't, but if you look at your own quote above you can see that even you are unconsciously making the distinction between what God places in the heart (faith--the supernatural knowledge that the gospel is true) and the believing that you do in response to the revelation that God gives as a free gift.
Just having the Holy Spirit tell you the gospel is true (faith) isn't enough. That's hearing only. It can't save anybody. It's believing/trusting in what you hear that justifies/saves. There are lots of people who hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit who shows them the gospel is true but then who never respond in trust to that which the Holy Spirit proved to them is true. But they go on in life thinking they are saved nonetheless. They agree that the gospel is true, but they never place their trust in it and are saved. But they are quite sure that the knowing alone is enough to justify/save them. And so back to their old lives they go, unchanged, untransformed by the gospel with only the outer dressing of the Christian life to show for what God revealed to them by faith. No change of character, no deliverance from sin, no progress towards Christ-likeness. Just the same ol' person they were before with some church attendance and a profession of faith thrown in to suave the conscience.
Last edited:
P
I don't know all the details of what he believes but it appears you're doing to him what the Pharisees did to Jesus. He spoke in ways that appeared to them were blasphemous but in fact were not at all when fully explained and examined. But they weren't interested in seeking out what he was actually saying. Their superficial, erroneous understanding of what he was saying provided the excuse they needed to fulfill their real agenda--which was to condemn and destroy him, and that's as far with the matter that they wanted and intended to go with it. They were not interested in actually delving into the truth he was speaking in order to learn. They wanted him dead. That very spirit--the spirit of the Pharisee--exists in this forum. The Spirit of Jesus, on the other hand, acts like Jesus.
Last edited:
P
What I've seen is anti-Calvinists get grievously provoked by the angry bullying of Calvinists. Generally speaking, Calvinist go on the offensive, while anit-Calvinists get put on the defense, and many simply do not respond very well to the bullying and provocation they try to endure. I see this distinction very clearly in these kinds of arguments. Very clearly.
It's the spirit of the Pharisee--angrily and without the Spirit murderously defending the popularly accepted beliefs of the day. They look good on the outside (generally speaking) and feel they are above reproach because of that, but inside they are full of murder, and hatred, and treachery, not the love of God.
It's the spirit of the Pharisee--angrily and without the Spirit murderously defending the popularly accepted beliefs of the day. They look good on the outside (generally speaking) and feel they are above reproach because of that, but inside they are full of murder, and hatred, and treachery, not the love of God.
Last edited:
P
The person who continues to believe is the one who is always presently believing. Certainly you would agree with that.
You will see that the promises of Jesus are conditioned on present believing, not past believing that has, or can, stop. The condition for having eternal life, right now, is that you believe right now. And as long as you are doing that believing you have the sure and unshakable promise of salvation.
You will see that the promises of Jesus are conditioned on present believing, not past believing that has, or can, stop. The condition for having eternal life, right now, is that you believe right now. And as long as you are doing that believing you have the sure and unshakable promise of salvation.
P
Correct. You CHOSE to trust in him.
How do you know that the choice you made to trust in what God convinced you is true can never ever be reversed? It was a choice then, how is it not now? After you choose to believe, does God now make the choice of believing/trusting in the gospel for you?
I'm 31 years old in the Lord now. Not 31 years of passive, "yeah, I'm saved" salvation. But an active, interested, learning, and growing, and serving, and focused 31 years of salvation. And I will tell you right now that our relationship with Christ is like a marriage. You start out with stars in your eyes and think that nothing can come between you and your devotion and love for your spouse. It's the same with God. You're kidding yourself if you think your relationship with God will always be like it was on the first day, or in the first six months. You will most likely find that love for God wanes and must be nurtured and maintained like love in a human marriage does. That is why the Bible exhorts us not to forsake our first love. Don't be fooled into thinking the love you have for God now is too good to not always be that way. Everybody, sooner or later, has to face their Garden of Gethsamene, or their Job trial that will try their faith in the gospel. If your soil is good, you'll make it through. But don't think it has an automatic outcome because you're just so crazy in love with God now.
You'd have a point if God said he promised to do our believing for us. But as it is, he did not promise that. He will provide the faith and encouragement so we can trust and believe, but he does not do our believing for us.
Actually, I resist labels. But sometimes it's the only way to talk to another person so they understand what you're saying. I'm good with simply addressing each individual issue without labels. I use 'OSAS' because I do not want to type out 'Once Saved Always Saved' all the time. That is not a label.
How do you know that the choice you made to trust in what God convinced you is true can never ever be reversed? It was a choice then, how is it not now? After you choose to believe, does God now make the choice of believing/trusting in the gospel for you?
I'm 31 years old in the Lord now. Not 31 years of passive, "yeah, I'm saved" salvation. But an active, interested, learning, and growing, and serving, and focused 31 years of salvation. And I will tell you right now that our relationship with Christ is like a marriage. You start out with stars in your eyes and think that nothing can come between you and your devotion and love for your spouse. It's the same with God. You're kidding yourself if you think your relationship with God will always be like it was on the first day, or in the first six months. You will most likely find that love for God wanes and must be nurtured and maintained like love in a human marriage does. That is why the Bible exhorts us not to forsake our first love. Don't be fooled into thinking the love you have for God now is too good to not always be that way. Everybody, sooner or later, has to face their Garden of Gethsamene, or their Job trial that will try their faith in the gospel. If your soil is good, you'll make it through. But don't think it has an automatic outcome because you're just so crazy in love with God now.
You'd have a point if God said he promised to do our believing for us. But as it is, he did not promise that. He will provide the faith and encouragement so we can trust and believe, but he does not do our believing for us.
Actually, I resist labels. But sometimes it's the only way to talk to another person so they understand what you're saying. I'm good with simply addressing each individual issue without labels. I use 'OSAS' because I do not want to type out 'Once Saved Always Saved' all the time. That is not a label.
Last edited:
