Greek help with Romans 8:27 ?

[posthuman]

hi -- this came up in another thread, and i was looking for clarification from someone who understands Greek grammar.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Romans 8:26-27, KJV)​

the accusation is made that "grammatical error" which introduces heresy is made in verse 27 in the NIV, which reads:

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.​

particularly, that it should not say "the Spirit intercedes" because the interpretation given along with the accusation is that the "he" who searches the hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit is the same "he" that intercedes in the last part of the verse.

i understand that the Greek doesn't literally say "the Spirit intercedes" in v. 27 -- though it quite literally says that in v. 26.
i assume that the NIV translators made this change just to clarify the text in English, with the understanding that the one spoken of making intercession in v. 27 is the same one making intercession in v. 26

anyway -- what does the Greek support -- is the NIV correct in making this assumption, or should "he" making intercession in v. 27 be the same "he" that searches the hearts ((to my mind obviously YHVH, Jeremiah 17:10))?

thanks

 

[MarcR]

oG3588 T-NSM deG1161 CONJ ereunonG2045 V-PAP-NSM tasG3588 T-APF kardiasG2588 N-APF oidenG1492 V-RAI-3S tiG5101 I-NSN toG3588 T-NSN phronemaG5427 N-NSN touG3588 T-GSN pneumatosG4151 N-GSN otiG3754 CONJ kataG2596 PREP theonG2316 N-ASM entugchaneiG1793 V-PAI-3S uperG5228 PREP agionG40 A-GPM



Rom 8:27 οG3588 BUT δεG1161 HE WHO ερευνωνG2045 [G5723] SEARCHES ταςG3588 THE καρδιαςG2588 HEARTS οιδενG1492 [G5758] KNOWS τιG5101 WHAT "IS" τοG3588 THE φρονημαG5427 MIND τουG3588 OF THE πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT, οτιG3754 BECAUSE καταG2596 ACCORDING TO θεονG2316 GOD εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE INTERCEDES υπερG5228 FOR αγιωνG40 SAINTS.

If there is a specific phrase you want analyzed I will attempt to do so but there are many on the forum with better skills than mine. My ability is stronger in the Hebrew.

 

[MarcR]

oG3588 T-NSM deG1161 CONJ ereunonG2045 V-PAP-NSM tasG3588 T-APF kardiasG2588 N-APF oidenG1492 V-RAI-3S tiG5101 I-NSN toG3588 T-NSN phronemaG5427 N-NSN touG3588 T-GSN pneumatosG4151 N-GSN otiG3754 CONJ kataG2596 PREP theonG2316 N-ASM entugchaneiG1793 V-PAI-3S uperG5228 PREP agionG40 A-GPM



Rom 8:27 οG3588 BUT δεG1161 HE WHO ερευνωνG2045 [G5723] SEARCHES ταςG3588 THE καρδιαςG2588 HEARTS οιδενG1492 [G5758] KNOWS τιG5101 WHAT "IS" τοG3588 THE φρονημαG5427 MIND τουG3588 OF THE πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT, οτιG3754 BECAUSE καταG2596 ACCORDING TO θεονG2316 GOD εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE INTERCEDES υπερG5228 FOR αγιωνG40 SAINTS.

If there is a specific phrase you want analyzed I will attempt to do so but there are many on the forum with better skills than mine. My ability is stronger in the Hebrew.

NT:1793

NT:1793 <START GREEK>e)ntugxa/nw<END GREEK>; 2 aorist
<START GREEK>e)ne/tuxon
<END GREEK>; generally with a dative either of person or of thing;

1. to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing; so often in Attic.

2. to go to or meet a person, especially for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication (Polybius, Plutarch, Aelian, others): with the addition
<START GREEK>peri/
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>ti/no$
<END GREEK>, the genitive of person, for the purpose of consulting about a person, Ac 25:24 (R. V. made suit); to make petition:
<START GREEK>e)ne/tuxon
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>tw=|
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>kuri/w|
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>kai/
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>e)deh/qhn
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>au)tou=
<END GREEK>, Wisd 8:21;
<START GREEK>e)ne/tuxon
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>tw=|
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>basilei=
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>th/n
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>a)po/lusin
<END GREEK> ...
<START GREEK>ai)tou/menoi
<END GREEK>, 3 Mac 6:37; hence, to pray, entreat:
<START GREEK>u(pe/r
<END GREEK> with the genitive of person to make intercession for anyone (the dative of the person approached in prayer being omitted, as evident from the context), Ro 8:21,34; Heb 7:25, (followed by
<START GREEK>peri/
<END GREEK> with the genitive of person, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 56, 1 [ET]);
<START GREEK>ti/ni
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>kata/
<END GREEK>
<START GREEK>ti/no$
<END GREEK> (to plead with one against anyone), to accuse one to anyone, Ro 11:2, cf. 1 Mac 8:32; 10:61,63; 11:25. (Not found in the Sept.) (Compare:
<START GREEK>u(perentugxa/nw
<END GREEK>.)
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
My apology for the font incompatibility the Greek text works fine in the program it came from.

 

[oldhermit]

hi -- this came up in another thread, and i was looking for clarification from someone who understands Greek grammar.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Romans 8:26-27, KJV)​

the accusation is made that "grammatical error" which introduces heresy is made in verse 27 in the NIV, which reads:

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.​

particularly, that it should not say "the Spirit intercedes" because the interpretation given along with the accusation is that the "he" who searches the hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit is the same "he" that intercedes in the last part of the verse.

i understand that the Greek doesn't literally say "the Spirit intercedes" in v. 27 -- though it quite literally says that in v. 26.
i assume that the NIV translators made this change just to clarify the text in English, with the understanding that the one spoken of making intercession in v. 27 is the same one making intercession in v. 26

anyway -- what does the Greek support -- is the NIV correct in making this assumption, or should "he" making intercession in v. 27 be the same "he" that searches the hearts ((to my mind obviously YHVH, Jeremiah 17:10))?

thanks

It would seem that the one who searches the hearts of men in the same one who is speaking in Jeremiah 17:10 and he knows the mind of the Spirit who intercedes for man.

 

[posthuman]

It would seem that the one who searches the hearts of men in the same one who is speaking in Jeremiah 17:10 and he knows the mind of the Spirit who intercedes for man.

so in Romans 8:27 -- "because the Spirit intercedes . . " is correct?

to interpret it as "because he [who searches the heart & knows the mind of the Spirit] intercedes . ." doesn't fit?

 

[posthuman]

Rom 8:27 οG3588 BUT δεG1161 HE WHO ερευνωνG2045 [G5723] SEARCHES ταςG3588 THE καρδιαςG2588 HEARTS οιδενG1492 [G5758] KNOWS τιG5101 WHAT "IS" τοG3588 THE φρονημαG5427 MIND τουG3588 OF THE πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT, οτιG3754 BECAUSE καταG2596 ACCORDING TO θεονG2316 GOD εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE INTERCEDES υπερG5228 FOR αγιωνG40 SAINTS.

If there is a specific phrase you want analyzed I will attempt to do so but there are many on the forum with better skills than mine. My ability is stronger in the Hebrew.

hi Marc thanks -- i'm specifically asking about the part i bolded in your reply: is that specific word referring to the Spirit or to the "he" in the preceding clause that knows the mind of the Spirit?

it seems to me that logically, because of the information in v. 26 for example, it's the Spirit - but i wanted to know whether the Greek supports that reading, or another reading, or is ambiguous.


in other words,
is the "he" in the first part of the verse, who searches the heart, a different "he" than the "he" that makes intercession in the second part of the verse, or can/should this be understood to be exactly one "he" throughout?

 

[oldhermit]

so in Romans 8:27 -- "because the Spirit intercedes . . " is correct?

to interpret it as "because he [who searches the heart & knows the mind of the Spirit] intercedes . ." doesn't fit?

This is part of the triadic function in which all three members of the Triadic Unity seem to function within certain parameters. The one speaking in Jeremiah holds the second position within this structure. He is always the one who functions as the conduit of communication between God and man. He is the Word of God. The Spirit is ALWAYS seen functioning as the linking agent and organizer. He is the one who intercedes on the behalf of man. The function of the Word is that of mediator. This forms a communication link between man and the Father. The Spirit intercedes on behalf of man to the Son and the Son mediates man's case before the Father.

 

[MarcR]

hi Marc thanks -- i'm specifically asking about the part i bolded in your reply: is that specific word referring to the Spirit or to the "he" in the preceding clause that knows the mind of the Spirit?

it seems to me that logically, because of the information in v. 26 for example, it's the Spirit - but i wanted to know whether the Greek supports that reading, or another reading, or is ambiguous.


in other words,
is the "he" in the first part of the verse, who searches the heart, a different "he" than the "he" that makes intercession in the second part of the verse, or can/should this be understood to be exactly one "he" throughout?

It refers to He the Spirit.

 

[Johnny_B]

"Infirmities" is translated "weakness" in the ESV and NKJV. Here's the ESV 8:26-27 "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

Fee says this is the "glossolalia" gift, but Paul says "do all speak in tongues?" in I Corinthians 12:30, it is our weakness that is the reason we do not know what to pray as we ought. One thing that is reassuring is that the Spirit Himself intercedes for us and the pray is to deep for us to express in words. Our inter man longs for the will of God as saints, do we always do it, no we don't. Lets not forget this is set up by Romans 7:21-25 "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." So the Spirit intercedes for the saints because we long to do God's will. Who is the one that search the heart?

I Corinthians 2:6-13 give us great insight to who it is.

"Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.9 But, as it is written,“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual."

​Notice verses 6-9 is comparing the unregenerate to the regenerate, then verses 10-13 reveals a deeper understanding of what Romans 8:27 is saying. The deeper understanding of 8:26 is Roman 7:21-25. It is our spirit that search our inward man or our hearts, the groaning to deep for words seems to be our spirit communicating with the Spirit things that we desire of God's will and the Spirit from what I Corinthians 2:10-13 is saying.

Read these together and I Corinthians 2:10-13 helps understand Romans 8:27. I like the way verse 2:13 helps understand "with groanings too deep for words."

Hope that helps.

 

[Enow]

This is part of the triadic function in which all three members of the Triadic Unity seem to function within certain parameters. The one speaking in Jeremiah holds the second position within this structure. He is always the one who functions as the conduit of communication between God and man. He is the Word of God. The Spirit is ALWAYS seen functioning as the linking agent and organizer. He is the one who intercedes on the behalf of man. The function of the Word is that of mediator. This forms a communication link between man and the Father. The Spirit intercedes on behalf of man to the Son and the Son mediates man's case before the Father.

A minor correction; since the intercessions of the Spirit are unspeakable for which is why the Son knows the mind of the Spirit, the Spirit is not really interceding TO the Son, but the Son taking the Spirit's intercessions from the Spirit by knowing His mind.

 

[Enow]

It refers to He the Spirit.

If the "he" that is separate from us in searching our hearts, then this same "he" is separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of, thus the conclusion of that "he" in that verse, cannot be "the Spirit". That is called a grammatical error.

Let's replace the "he" with "the Spirit" all through out that verse.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And the Spirit that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Why say that about the Spirit knowing the mind of the Spirit? Therefore that "he" in the beginning of that verse cannot conclude with "the Spirit" when the verse is testifying to Another to explain how the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit are made known to God..

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

so the question to the reader is how then are the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit's are known to God?....and that is by Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit which is why verse 27 exists to explain how.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The identity of the "he" can be confirmed in scripture by Hebrews 4:12-16 as the "he" that searches our hearts.

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[trofimus]

hi -- this came up in another thread, and i was looking for clarification from someone who understands Greek grammar.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Romans 8:26-27, KJV)​

the accusation is made that "grammatical error" which introduces heresy is made in verse 27 in the NIV, which reads:

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.​

particularly, that it should not say "the Spirit intercedes" because the interpretation given along with the accusation is that the "he" who searches the hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit is the same "he" that intercedes in the last part of the verse.

i understand that the Greek doesn't literally say "the Spirit intercedes" in v. 27 -- though it quite literally says that in v. 26.
i assume that the NIV translators made this change just to clarify the text in English, with the understanding that the one spoken of making intercession in v. 27 is the same one making intercession in v. 26

anyway -- what does the Greek support -- is the NIV correct in making this assumption, or should "he" making intercession in v. 27 be the same "he" that searches the hearts ((to my mind obviously YHVH, Jeremiah 17:10))?

thanks

In my opinion, it means this, because of the sentence structure:

ὁ δὲ ἐραυνῶν τὰς καρδίας οἶδεν τί τὸ φρόνημα τοῦ Πνεύματος, ὅτι κατὰ Θεὸν ἐντυγχάνει ὑπὲρ ἁγίων.

"The one who examines the hearts (Father) is knowing the intention of the Spirit, that he (the Spirit) intervenes for saints according to God (Father)."

 

[Enow]

"Infirmities" is translated "weakness" in the ESV and NKJV. Here's the ESV 8:26-27 "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

Fee says this is the "glossolalia" gift, but Paul says "do all speak in tongues?" in I Corinthians 12:30, it is our weakness that is the reason we do not know what to pray as we ought. One thing that is reassuring is that the Spirit Himself intercedes for us and the pray is to deep for us to express in words.

Let every one understand that he is using a corrupt Bible version in applying tongues without interpretation to Romans 8:26-27 as he is using "with groanings too deep for words" as testifying that sounds can be heard when the Holy Spirit makes His intercessions.

In comparison to the KJV of "with groanings which cannot be uttered" means no sound at all. That means even His groaning is NOT being uttered.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The distinction between the two verses cannot be missed. ESV says sounds are being made to hear the groaning but no words whereas the KJV says no sound at all for you cannot even hear His groanings when He makes unspeakable intercessions for us..

Now I say ESV is corrupt because Romans 8:26-27 ESV is running against the truth in His words in John 16:13 ESV.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV

That means the Holy Spirit CANNOT use tongues for uttering His own intercessions. He can only speak what He hears. That is the Holy Spirit fulfilling His role as the Spirit of Christ and why the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: .........[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
There is a supernatural tongue in the world which comes with no interpretation usually gained by saved believers thinking they are receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or "again" by another baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is not. That is why that tongue comes with no interpretation for why they are assuming it is a prayer language of the Holy Spirit, but it is not.

So how can you reprove that tongue gained by apostasy when errant modern Bibles are supporting the notion in Romans 8:26-27 that the Holy Spirit would be confusing by turning God's gift of tongues around from speaking unto the people to use it as His own means for uttering His intercessions?

You can't. That is why I have been urging believers to use the KJV for the meat of His words to discern good & evil by Him.

Anyway, just pointing out what our fellow brother is posting here so that there is no mistake for why clarity was asked for in understanding Romans 8:26-27 by the OP in regards to another topic in another thread.

Our inter man longs for the will of God as saints, do we always do it, no we don't. Lets not forget this is set up by Romans 7:21-25 "

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." So the Spirit intercedes for the saints because we long to do God's will. Who is the one that search the heart?

I Corinthians 2:6-13 give us great insight to who it is.

"

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.9 But, as it is written,“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual."

​Notice verses 6-9 is comparing the unregenerate to the regenerate, then verses 10-13 reveals a deeper understanding of what Romans 8:27 is saying. The deeper understanding of 8:26 is Roman 7:21-25. It is our spirit that search our inward man or our hearts, the groaning to deep for words seems to be our spirit communicating with the Spirit things that we desire of God's will and the Spirit from what I Corinthians 2:10-13 is saying.

Read these together and I Corinthians 2:10-13 helps understand Romans 8:27. I like the way verse 2:13 helps understand "with groanings too deep for words."

Hope that helps.

Between ESV's "with groanings too deep for words" hence sounds are being made here and KJV's "with groanings which cannot be uttered" hence no sound at all.... only the KJV is keeping in line with the truth in His words in John 16:13 whereas the ESV is not keeping in line with the truth in that ESV of John 16:13 when the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak on His own authority to be using tongues for His own personal use in prayer when He can only speak what He hears as God's gift of tongues REALLY is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

 

[Enow]

In my opinion, it means this, because of the sentence structure:

ὁ δὲ ἐραυνῶν τὰς καρδίας οἶδεν τί τὸ φρόνημα τοῦ Πνεύματος, ὅτι κατὰ Θεὸν ἐντυγχάνει ὑπὲρ ἁγίων.

"The one who examines the hearts (Father) is knowing the intention of the Spirit, that he (the Spirit) intervenes for saints according to God (Father)."

Interesting application. Do you have the verse to back up that it is the Father that searches or examines the heart?

I have one testifying to the Son as searching our hearts and why since it is His job as we are to answer to Him.

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The Father is not at that throne of grace for us to be searching our hearts as our only Mediator between God and men, but the man Christ Jesus is.

1 Timothy 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If the Father could do it, there would be no need for a Mediator nor a throne of grace to approach God the Father by.

 

[MarcR]

If the "he" that is separate from us in searching our hearts, then this same "he" is separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of, thus the conclusion of that "he" in that verse, cannot be "the Spirit". That is called a grammatical error.

Let's replace the "he" with "the Spirit" all through out that verse.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And the Spirit that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Why say that about the Spirit knowing the mind of the Spirit? Therefore that "he" in the beginning of that verse cannot conclude with "the Spirit" when the verse is testifying to Another to explain how the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit are made known to God..

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

so the question to the reader is how then are the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit's are known to God?....and that is by Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit which is why verse 27 exists to explain how.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The identity of the "he" can be confirmed in scripture by Hebrews 4:12-16 as the "he" that searches our hearts.

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Excellent argument if we only look at the English translation.

In Greek, the antecedent of a pronoun is the most proximate (closest) preceding noun.

The antecedent of He (by that rule) is Spirit.

 

[trofimus]

Interesting application. Do you have the verse to back up that it is the Father that searches or examines the heart?

I have one testifying to the Son as searching our hearts and why since it is His job as we are to answer to Him.

Now, when you asked, I think that yes, it can be Son, too.

Father:
"LORD Almighty, you who examine the righteous and probe the heart and mind..-"
(Jer 20:10)

"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart..."
1 Chron 28:9

"Bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure-- you, the righteous God who probes minds and hearts."
(Psalm 7:9)

Son:
"I [the Son of God] will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds." (Rev 2:18)

---

My point was rather that it is not the Spirit, because of the sentence's structure. You are right it can be Son, depends on our view.

 

[Johnny_B]

Between ESV's "with groanings too deep for words" hence sounds are being made here and KJV's "with groanings which cannot be uttered" hence no sound at all.... only the KJV is keeping in line with the truth in His words in John 16:13 whereas the ESV is not keeping in line with the truth in that ESV of John 16:13 when the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak on His own authority to be using tongues for His own personal use in prayer when He can only speak what He hears as God's gift of tongues REALLY is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

The ESV does not say that the Holy Spirit is speaking in a tounge. If you go back and read what was posted you'll see that, Fee a commantator is the one that said that it was a tounge, not the Spirit speaking in a tounge. The Spirit does not speak in a tounge or tounges, they are gifts of the Spirit, not attributes of His.

The reason he said that is because Paul said that we do not know what to pray in verse 26 and he also says there is a tounge for pray in I Corinthians 14:13-15 "Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also."

This tounge has not one thing to do with other men's lips, it has everything to do with one personal prayer life and our spirit praying.

The ESV never said that the Spirit intercedes for the saints of His own will, you really need to read verse 27 of the KJV or ESV. KJV "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." ESV "And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Both thge ESV and the KJV say that the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. So you made a big deal out of a straw man that you set up so you could knock it down, but you did not read even the KJV to see that the Spirit's intercedes for us according to God's will, not of His own accord.

The only uncorrupt word of God are the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and any translation of those manuscripts into English is more of a commantary of those manuscripts in translation form. There is no way to have a direct translation of the Greek or Hebrew into the English language. The closest direct translation you can get from the Greek is the Latin or Spanish, the closest direct translation you can get of the Hebrew manuscripts. Would be another middle eastern-semitic language like Arabic or Aramaic.

All English translations are missing something in translation.

 

[Locutus]

There is a fair bit of conflation of the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the scriptures:

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

 

[Enow]

Excellent argument if we only look at the English translation.

In Greek, the antecedent of a pronoun is the most proximate (closest) preceding noun.

The antecedent of He (by that rule) is Spirit.

Can you give another verse to support that is the rule in practice?

 

[Enow]

Now, when you asked, I think that yes, it can be Son, too.

Father:
"LORD Almighty, you who examine the righteous and probe the heart and mind..-"
(Jer 20:10)

"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart..."
1 Chron 28:9

"Bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure-- you, the righteous God who probes minds and hearts."
(Psalm 7:9)

I am not sure how you can establish the O.T. verses as referring to the Father. John 5:39-40 has testified that the scripture testifies of the Son.

Son:
"I [the Son of God] will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds." (Rev 2:18)

--My point was rather that it is not the Spirit, because of the sentence's structure. You are right it can be Son, depends on our view.-

I do thank you for confirming that it is not "the Spirit" in the conclusion of that verse in Romans 8:27.

But I believe by these scriptures below, we can ascertain Who is definitely that "he" is in that verse.

John 5:[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12[/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14[/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The Father is holy for which no sinful man has seen the Father at any time, whereby Jesus has been provided for us in coming to God the Father by as the God that men had seen in the O.T., and that was the Son of God before His incarnation.

It stands to reason that the Son of God is the One that searches our hearts in the O.T. and the N.T. but I reckon only the Lord can confirm His words to you.