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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I posted this in another thread, and I think its pertinent here...
I do not understand completly that OT, but Jesus Said WHOsoever believe in Him Will save, If people believe that verse is that mean self righteousness and people WHO do not believe that verse not self righteousness?

if so I choose self righteuosness.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I do not understand completly that OT, but Jesus Said WHOsoever believe in Him Will save, If people believe that verse is that mean self righteousness and people WHO do not believe that verse not self righteousness?

if so I choose self righteuosness.
The verse does not say how one can believe and how to be born again. Its the act of the Holy Spirit as Jesus says few verses later.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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SovereignGrace, I have been watching this thread for a while.
I agree with your doctrinal position as set out in this thread.

However, I cannot help wondering whether there is a misunderstanding here.
Jackson123 is Indonesian and English is his second language.
Reading your posts and then his posts I just feel that if Jackson123 could communicate in his first language and you could understand it you may find that your positions are much closer than it appears at first glance.
To me Jackson123 does not have the English vocabulary to express himself adequately given the subject matter.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:11

His mission was to bring the elect ones to faith/salvation.
Who is the elect?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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SovereignGrace, I have been watching this thread for a while.
I agree with your doctrinal position as set out in this thread.

However, I cannot help wondering whether there is a misunderstanding here.
Jackson123 is Indonesian and English is his second language.
Reading your posts and then his posts I just feel that if Jackson123 could communicate in his first language and you could understand it you may find that your positions are much closer than it appears at first glance.
To me Jackson123 does not have the English vocabulary to express himself adequately given the subject matter.
I agree with this, and this has also crossed my mind. That's why I am doing my best to walk him through his many errors. He has the typical free will errors regardless what language is his main language.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The verse does not say how one can believe and how to be born again. Its the act of the Holy Spirit as Jesus says few verses later.
So you believe Holy Spirit couse some people believe and go to heaven and the same Holy spirit couse some people ignore and not believe so They go to hell?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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why God choose some people for heaven and some for hell?
Thats what Paul explains in Romans. Every grand architect uses various tools for his creation.

God is love so He saved as many people as possible, but there was a need for some not to be saved. If He would saved all, the whole creation would not be perfect in the end.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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why God choose some people for heaven and some for hell?
Because He is God. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea,'I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’” “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’ THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”[Romans 9:19-26]

God took from the same lump His ppl, the elect, the sheep. He did so because He is God and we are not. We have no right to question God about anything.

So, why do you question God, my Brother?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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So you believe Holy Spirit couse some people believe and go to heaven and the same Holy spirit couse some people ignore and not believe so They go to hell?
Salvation/election is a gift, not a forcing.

But tell me, were you forced to be born physically?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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So you believe Holy Spirit couse some people believe and go to heaven and the same Holy spirit couse some people ignore and not believe so They go to hell?
The Holy Spirit moves upon ppl and they come to life, exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

The Holy Spirit doesn't have to cause ppl to ignore Him, as they do that of their own volition.[Acts 7:51]
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Thats what Paul explains in Romans. Every grand architect uses various tools for his creation.

God is love so He saved as many people as possible, but there was a need for some not to be saved. If He would saved all, the whole creation would not be perfect in the end.
to my knowledge, God love the world and I interprate all human, but only WHO believe in Him Will save.
the original purpose for God to create human is to love them and stay save, He Not create for the purpose to burn in hell and enjoy to watch people suffer. If so God is not Love.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Salvation/election is a gift, not a forcing.

But tell me, were you forced to be born physically?
I was born not of my Will. But It doesn't mean salvation by force. Do you believe salvation by force?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Using his logic? Yes he was.
In such a case we use the word forcing wrongly, in this discussion.

Forcing is something against one's will. I did not vote not to be born before I was born, so it cannot be a forcing. It was a gift.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I was born not of my Will. But It doesn't mean salvation by force. Do you believe salvation by force?
I believe salvation is very similar to being born physically. You are gifted with eyes to see, with a will to want good, with ears to hear and with eternal life to live.

Its not forcing. But also, its not given to everybody.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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The Holy Spirit moves upon ppl and they come to life, exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

The Holy Spirit doesn't have to cause ppl to ignore Him, as they do that of their own volition.[Acts 7:51]
why not love all and Moves upon all and make them all to life, doesn't Holy Spirit know If He not love some and moves upon them they go to hell?

I love my son and If I know something Will harm him I Will do what ever I can to save him.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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I believe salvation is very similar to being born physically. You are gifted with eyes to see, with a will to want good, with ears to hear and with eternal life to live.

Its not forcing. But also, its not given to everybody.
Not forcing, can you refused?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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why not love all and Moves upon all and make them all to life, doesn't Holy Spirit know If He not love some and moves upon them they go to hell?

I love my son and If I know something Will harm him I Will do what ever I can to save him.
Thats why God will save all His children. But not all people are His children.