Made righteous, holy or Christs righteousness covering

[PeterJens]

all I am saying is that no one, by using the Biblical definition of sin, is sinless. that's it. I am not calling anyone derogertory names.

This statement is not the real statement. What is being said is no one is ever washed clean,
pure and Holy.

If they are, at that point they are righteous, sinless. No sin is held against them, nothing.
That is what forgiveness means. This is why the argument is so subtle and twisted.

Now the trick is to then generalise and say someone who is Holy, will still fail 24/7.
How does anyone know other than God?

As I have stated too many times this is disbelief in scripture and walking in the Spirit.
We do not know, other than Christ did not sin in his whole life.

And we are to walk like Him.

Now unless you are God, you can only testify to your own struggles and issues, and
I have learnt we are all different and it is dangerous to assume anything.

So each speaker who talks about failure is both in unbelief about the promise, in unconfessed
sin which they often disclose in some idea this is being honest, and they understand the gospel
even though their testimony is contradicting it. So why should I or anybody take such a
speaker seriously. I do not not, because I believe Jesus.

 

[PeterJens]

I was struck by an idea just now.

To some we are not Holy or righteous or clean or pure, we are sinners who limp along
with Jesus covering us, because it is actually just saying Jesus is these things not us.

But if it is Christ and not us, why even write it, because it makes no difference.
If I a dirty sinner can behave good or evil, the best I could be or the worst and God
sees me the same, you would not bother saying you are Holy, pure etc. because it
would not be true and you would say you describing Christ.

So much of scripture would simply not exist if what is claimed is true, because I can
write the most fantastic things about Christ, but it is obvious. To write it about
believers is truly unusual and worthy of being in scripture because as being demonstrated
here believers too easily do not recognise what they truly are in Christ.

So we come around to the fact it means what is says.
And also why I have to continually repeat this reality.

And one reason why Gods people get defeated is because they walk in unbelief
grieve the Holy Spirit and do not recognise the very treasure within.

We have here on cc believers of decades long in church, in scripture, who are
teachers yet deny the words of God and His apostles. No wonder things are
so powerless and defeated.

 

[MarcR]

Scripture appears to say we are righteous because of our faith.

Paul says righteousness cannot come through obeying the law.

It seems we link righteous to being a good person, not having sin, being perfect.
It has the feeling of being isolated, self contained, self sufficient.

Some say talking about behaviour is just supporting the idea of independence.
In this thinking dependence is salvation, and only exists because we cannot to the
right things and fail, and without this failure we would not need God.

A different view has grown in my thinking. Love and righteousness is about mutual
dependency and interaction. It is about acknowledging mutual giving and receiving
and taking joy in the process and its reality.

So one can obey the law 100% but not actually be loving or connected with others.
So God is saying when we acknowledge our dependency on God, our needs being met
by Him, that independence is the illusion of this world, the denial of what is and how it
all works, it is independence, an identity that is also dependent through love to others
and from others.

Right behaviour reflects this reality when understood from the heart.
We need Christ, the cross, life, food, sun, sleep, shelter, comfort, support, care.
We are integrated, every moment of every day, yet our hearts want to say, I am
important and matter, so I must snatch, steal, struggle, fight, demand, have.

So what does scripture say and how is this expressed.

I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help. I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness from the great assembly.
Psalm 40:10

One who loves a pure heart and who speaks with grace will have the king for a friend.
Proverbs 22:11

I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
John 5:42

just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:21

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours
1 Peter 2:2

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:25-26

We are made righteous by accepting the atonement of Christ through faith.

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
Acts 10:43

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 10:14

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10

We are made perfect, we are made holy through Christ and his sacrifice.

This sounds very different from we are sinners continually sinning and defeated
without hope of the slavery being broken until we have a new body at the resurrection.
So who are we believing? Scripture or man? Our struggles or the resurrection of Christ?

I may be picking at words here; but I don't think so.

We are saved because of faith, indeed; but we are righteous only because Jesus made us so.

No amount of faith, trust or belief can make us righteous apart from our relationship with Jesus.

 

[MarcR]

Let me expand what is being asked here.

The claim is Christ atoned for all sins past, present and future for the whole world, so that
judgement is no longer for sin, but belief in Christ.

This heretical belief removes obligation on believers or anybody to stop sinning.
It is an insane proposition that the problem with sin is Gods judgement, not that sin
brings death into the lives of the people who commit it.

It is a lie of the enemy, which downplays behaviour and puts everything just on faith.
In one strike all of Gods testimony about the lostness of man shown by their behaviour
is removed. It is not just belief.

I see this as a man claiming he loves a woman as he rapes her.
Their theology is this far gone and insane, no one outside the world of religion would
accept these guys know anything other than trying to excuse their guilt.

Dig deeper and they will say, conviction for sin is evil, from satan, God does not convict
about sin. What? Are you joking?

Jesus is Jonah, coming with the message of judgement unless they repent.
The sign of Jonah, Jesus's death and resurrection, is the sign judgement will fall.

Sin is the issue. In the book of revelation, the people are judged because they were
judged with plagues but they still did not repent.

The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Rev 9:20

So these folk appear to be believers but have removed the core issue in the gospel,
sin and judgement that stands against it.

This heretical belief removes obligation on believers or anybody to stop sinning.
It is an insane proposition that the problem with sin is Gods judgement, not that sin
brings death into the lives of the people who commit it.

This statement reflects a total misunderstanding of the teachings of Jan Huss and Menno Simons!

Regardless how we come to it, Salvation builds in every true believer a Holy life.

If a person believes that Jesus suffered for his/her sins, how can that person wantonly give Jesus more sin to suffer for.

The only difference between Reformed and pre-Reformed soteriology is whether Salvation is available to all or only to a select few. and maybe a different view of the timing of the process. If a statement such as you made is based on ignorance it is excusable. Since you have been told that pre-reformed thinking does NOT embrace a license to sin; continuing to teach that it does is slander.

 

[FlSnookman7]

I believe we are righteous because we are hidden in Christ and because He became sin for us so we could be righteous in Him...

Colossians 3:1-4 3 [FONT=&quot]If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.[/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

I may be picking at words here; but I don't think so.

We are saved because of faith, indeed; but we are righteous only because Jesus made us so.

No amount of faith, trust or belief can make us righteous apart from our relationship with Jesus.

Hi MarcR,

I am not claiming anything but this principle.
I am arguing that people do not believe we are righteous at all, it is just Jesus.

I am not sure you have picked this up from Prince and his teachings, but those who
follow this theology are teaching this.

 

[PeterJens]

This heretical belief removes obligation on believers or anybody to stop sinning.
It is an insane proposition that the problem with sin is Gods judgement, not that sin
brings death into the lives of the people who commit it.

This statement reflects a total misunderstanding of the teachings of Jan Huss and Menno Simons!

Regardless how we come to it, Salvation builds in every true believer a Holy life.

If a person believes that Jesus suffered for his/her sins, how can that person wantonly give Jesus more sin to suffer for.

The only difference between Reformed and pre-Reformed soteriology is whether Salvation is available to all or only to a select few. and maybe a different view of the timing of the process. If a statement such as you made is based on ignorance it is excusable. Since you have been told that pre-reformed thinking does NOT embrace a license to sin; continuing to teach that it does is slander.

We are talking about different things here.
I am not saying any traditional theological stand says sin is ok, just the groups who believe
sin is now forgiven in the whole world and we are not awaiting judgement for sin.

You may not be aware this has been a discussion point among members here.
I have had years discussing future sin forgiven and the whole worlds sin is now not the
spiritual issue in the christian life.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151583-future-sin-forgiven-cross-you-free-maybe.html

So my point is about holiness and some who actually deny this is possible.
If you are interested the link introduces some of the discussions we had in the past.

I was surprised to say the least that believers held that they neither needed to confess sin
or repent in a biblical way and walking in Gods ways was just a nice thing to do if you liked
it, but served no purpose.

So my friend I am not slandering anyone, but testifying to various positions people held, and
to varying degrees still hold.

God bless.

 

[garee]

Peter said Scripture appears to say we are righteous because of our faith.

Scriptures says we have the righteousness of Christ because of His work of faith (not of ourselves). We are righteous because of His faith .We do not offer ours faith towards him coming from the imaginations of our own hearts and call that walking by faith .

He considers that dead works, it places one in the Hebrews 6 boat. One sacrifice was not enough to pay the entire sin debt to them .They have no savoir for their future sin.

How do you define not laying again, again and again, over and over the foundation of repentance from dead dead works and faith towards God?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[PeterJens]

Scriptures says we have the righteousness of Christ because of His work of faith (not of ourselves). We are righteous because of His faith .We do not offer ours faith towards him coming from the imaginations of our own hearts and call that walking by faith .

He considers that dead works, it places one in the Hebrews 6 boat. One sacrifice was not enough to pay the entire sin debt to them .They have no savoir for their future sin.

How do you define not laying again, again and again, over and over the foundation of repentance from dead dead works and faith towards God?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

I have read people saying we are righteous because Christs faith.
Christ trusted His Father, but then as He was the Son of God, ofcourse He did, they are part
of the trinity.

Now we are righteous, which means we are clean and in right relationship with the Father.
We have faith in Christ, and it is this faith which saves us and is reconned as righteousness.

It appears to me is people want to remove any connection with ourselves up which salvation
is dependent. But this becomes absurd, because then we are not involved.
A gift becomes your own, when given, it no longer is owned by the giver or else it is not a gift
it is just lent. If we have no possession, it is not even lent, it is just covering.

Now the argument in Hebrews is our behaviour does make us legally blameless but this is not
the essence of righteousness, it is the relationship from the heart.

If through behaviour we wish to prove our worth, we fail.
Our value is in knowing God and having His heart.

The term dead works, could be all actions that lead to death another way of talking about sin.
It could also means works aimed only to justify the self.

So for me there is not clarity in peoples minds in this distinction.
We are called to work worthy of the King because we are His, not to make us His.

This issue is the very one people are condemning others over falsely while missing what righteousness
and righteous walking actually is.

It helps to talk more, because in the end it does become clear, but it takes time.

 

[PeterJens]

The cult of non-self

There is an idea that anything related to the believer in focus, language or ownership is
somehow evil, and selfish.

Now to show you how stupid this is look at the two greatest commandments

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
Deut 6:5

"Love your neighbor as yourself"
Lev 19:18

These are commands about how we are to behave and approach things.
So the core of the faith is about how we do these things.

So we have faith, trust, love, faithfulness, and we can have have the opposite.
We know we are no longer of this world because of our love for God and the
things of heaven. Paul puts it we can walk in the Spirit or the flesh. So a big
choice, and it is important to know which you are doing.

Without reference to ourselves we literally cannot decide how we are walking
and how we can progress and walk better and more fully in Him.

It is a good thing to recognise those gifts and works of love He has done in our
lives and actually use them. So faith is a gift but real, worthy of expression in
praise, worship and acts of service.

Those who literally hate this language or approach do not know scripture or
the Lord. In truth their rebellion is against the ten commandments, and confusing
people to the extent they have no moral reference points and drift into lawlessness.

There is only one spiritual source of such an approach and it is the enemy.

 

[Dan_473]

So christ died the atoning death to pay for sins, as he claimed. or did he not?

yes, christ died the atoning death to pay for sins!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The Issue Is no longer about sin but about faith In CHRIST and Grace does not teach a person to sin.
Be conscious of your right standing before GOD and not so focused on sin consciousness.