We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us

[trofimus]

Hmm what does it mean to you when God says they could eat (freely), pick the friut from any tree they find in the garden except the tree of knowledge. What does freely mean to you?

God is not going to spell every single word out to you, you have to chose to believe in somethings, that's free will.

it appears your finiting every single statement, either to fit your belief or of something else.

To eat freely means that you can eat as much as you want/can. It does not say anything about the (philosophical) issue of free will. Its not connected in any way.

If you are stopped by the policeman on the road and after the check he will tell you "you are free to go", he is not telling you anything about this topic. Its just an expression that you can go now.

 

[Magenta]

I prefer the term "self will." Clearly the term "free will" gets bogged down in
language and ideas that seek to compromise what the choice before us truly is.
Repent and believe. God makes it possible but He does not force us to choose Him.

 

[1ofthem]

Yeah, I think we would agree much more (and both "predestination vs free will camps" generally) if we would define words properly before we will use them in a discussion.

For me, when you say that we have free will, its making us like Gods, absolutely free in our decision making, not needing any gifts, any grace, any information. We are small gods and can do whatever we want. We are even free to want what we want (yeah, complicated formulation).

If we agree that we need gift of faith, that we need good and relevant information, new heart etc to positively respond to God's calling, I do not see how this can be called free or independent. Its dependent and gifted.



Yes, Jesus came to make us free. I do not think its context means that we are free and independent in absolute sense, but rather that we are free of death, of satan, of this world, of sin, of darkness etc.

I agree...I think some of this may be wording and each not understanding how the other is using the word.

I in no wise think that we can save ourselves or that we are like gods or anything. I totally agree with you that it takes the grace of God. But here's where we may differ, I think God gives all the chance to accept or deny his gift of grace. He draws all men unto him, but then they have the choice to accept it or not. I can choose to obey and accept him or not, but if I choose to not do so and land up in hell, then I can't blame him and say he didn't give me a chance. That's how I see it anyhow

 

[trofimus]

I agree...I think some of this may be wording and each not understanding how the other is using the word.

I in no wise think that we can save ourselves or that we are like gods or anything. I totally agree with you that it takes the grace of God. But here's where we may differ, I think God gives all the chance to accept or deny his gift of grace. He draws all men unto him, but then they have the choice to accept it or not. I can choose to obey and accept him or not, but if I choose to not do so and land up in hell, then I can't blame him and say he didn't give me a chance. That's how I see it anyhow

Why somebody "chooses" God and somebody does not? What is the source for this decision making?

Also, do all have the same chance?

 

[notmyown]

I prefer the term "self will." Clearly the term "free will" gets bogged down in
language and ideas that seek to compromise what the choice before us truly is.
Repent and believe. God makes it possible but He does not force us to choose Him.

save us against our will? no, rather He changes our will to align with His.

all glory to the Most High God!

 

[Jackson123]

I do not know what you mean by "agape love", you said "love love" (agape = love in Greek).

And I agree with you. I just do not agree with who is the primal agent in this process. I think it is the Holy Spirit, not something of me.

to my knowledge there are 3 kind of love, phileo Eros and agape

phileo is love between mother and son, or among family, you do not help from Holy Spirit to do this love

eros between man and women, also do not need help from Holy Spirit

agape, love that not expected pay back, love your enemy, It is only possible with the help from Holy Spirit, It is fruit of Holy Spirit

branch can not bear fruit of it self

 

[IamWhoIam]

To eat freely means that you can eat as much as you want/can. It does not say anything about the (philosophical) issue of free will. Its not connected in any way.

If you are stopped by the policeman on the road and after the check he will tell you "you are free to go", he is not telling you anything about this topic. Its just an expression that you can go now.

Do you use toilet paper because it's God's will you use it and not your will to use it?

I don't think there is any bible verses that says thou shall use toilet paper everyday, there might be though I'm not completely hip on every bible verse. Or for another example, you log into CC forums because you want to of your free will. There are a lot of things in life you chose with your own free will to do.

i know you believe there is a planet named Mars in our solar system, that planet is not mentioned in the bible, you have chosen to believe there is a planet man has named Mars, that is of your free will to believe that, need I speak on the many of other things you believe about the universe not written, I've seen you mentioned things on that topic before correct?

 

[Jackson123]

But you do not want to accept that belief has also a cause and is an effect of something.

To me believe cause salvation

 

[Jackson123]

Please, read the context of the verse. It says the right opposite, that it is not about the ones who hear, but about grace of God.

"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did..."
Rom 11

faith come from hearing do not mean every body that hear believe.

 

[1ofthem]

Why somebody "chooses" God and somebody does not? What is the source for this decision making?

Also, do all have the same chance?

I think Jesus explains this when he says that we have to be willing to take up our cross and follow him. We have to count the cost. Be willing to put him first and follow him in order to be his disciple and even though, I see it as no cost really, others do. Some are not willing to lay down their own life and put God first. They are too proud to listen and be obedient to God. Just like the rich man who came to Jesus and asked to be his disciple. Jesus gave him a choice but he was unwilling to sell all that he had and follow him. He loved his riches more than God and put them first.

 

[trofimus]

To me believe cause salvation

But what causes belief?

something -> belief -> salvation

 

[trofimus]

faith come from hearing do not mean every body that hear believe.

So, what is the cause of belief? Its not hearing, we agree.

 

[Jackson123]

Its not in the text. You only wish it (for some reason) to be so.

"What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Rom 11:8

Where the heck do you still see a free will in all this?

God give them spirit of stupor after they wicked deed. You believe God the author of sin?

 

[1lite]

both............

 

[Jackson123]

Both! This is just like predestination and free will. When we choose Jesus He has already chosen us, but we HAVE to choose him.

so you believe in Predestination don't you?

 

[IamWhoIam]

God says be clean wash yourself, but it is up to the person to choose the product or device to use to wash yourself of your own free will.

thats about as basic as I can get about free will, if anyone can't comprehend that, there's something else going on in your thoughts that is being defiant about free will.

 

[Jackson123]

Do you use toilet paper because it's God's will you use it and not your will to use it?

I don't think there is any bible verses that says thou shall use toilet paper everyday, there might be though I'm not completely hip on every bible verse. Or for another example, you log into CC forums because you want to of your free will. There are a lot of things in life you chose with your own free will to do.

i know you believe there is a planet named Mars in our solar system, that planet is not mentioned in the bible, you have chosen to believe there is a planet man has named Mars, that is of your free will to believe that, need I speak on the many of other things you believe about the universe not written, I've seen you mentioned things on that topic before correct?

yup you free to wear blue shirt or Red today, Eat strawberry or Apple It is free will

 

[trofimus]

God give them spirit of stupor after they wicked deed. You believe God the author of sin?

So you think that God gives spirit of stupor to people who are already wicked.

What is the purpose of it, then? God does not want to save bad people, only good ones? That would be salvation based on deeds, not on grace.

Also, the text does not say that God has chosen better people. It says that the ones hardened "sought so earnestly".

 

[Jackson123]

So, what is the cause of belief? Its not hearing, we agree.

bible say faith come from hearing, but the bible do not say every body that hear Will believe

 

[trofimus]

bible say faith come from hearing, but the bible do not say every body that hear Will believe

So, what is the source of believing, if its not hearing?