We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us

unobtrusive · Sep 28, 2017

We see it first as relevant, and then we respond because we believe it. We have been created to discern the relevance. All of us are created in His image accordingly. St. Augustine was a Roman Catholic monk, right?

unobtrusive · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

The human person is on a pilgrimage of the heart. The human heart is a desire seeking fulfillment; an emptiness that longs to be filled full; a journey that moves toward rest. O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our poor heart is without rest, restless till it rest in you! (St Augustine, Confessions I:1).

The human person is created in the image of God. The biblical locus for this image, and the source of this unlimited thirst for its Creator-Source, is the human heart. Deep is calling on deep, in the roar of waters (Ps.42:8). The depths of God call out to our depths. The Mystery calls out to the mystery of each person. The Presence first seeks us. Love firstloves us. This love is an absolutely free gift. We cannot earn it; we cannot buy it. Love only asks for love in response. Monks are not unlike other people whose hungering hearts are in search of that Mystery who alone draws them beyond a life that is merely useful, to one that is full of meaning.

Love only asks for love in response. (Our choice)

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

unobtrusive said:

And we believe it, because God helps us to believe - by His gifts.

unobtrusive said:

In the 4th century AD this question had not meaning. All were, because Roman empire was everywhere.

If by monk you mean he lived in a celibacy, yes.

Magenta · Sep 28, 2017

unobtrusive said:

The human person is on a pilgrimage of the heart. The human heart is a desire seeking fulfillment; an emptiness that longs to be filled full; a journey that moves toward rest. O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our poor heart is without rest, restless till it rest in you!(St Augustine, Confessions I:1).

The human person is created in the image of God. The biblical locus for this image, and the source of this unlimited thirst for its Creator-Source, is the human heart. Deep is calling on deep, in the roar of waters (Ps.42:8). The depths of God call out to our depths. The Mystery calls out to the mystery of each person. The Presence first seeks us. Love firstloves us. This love is an absolutely free gift. We cannot earn it; we cannot buy it. Love only asks for love in response. Monks are not unlike other people whose hungering hearts are in search of that Mystery who alone draws them beyond a life that is merely useful, to one that is full of meaning.

Love only asks for love in response. (Our choice)

Jesus is the bread of life, the only true everlasting answer to
the hunger and thirsting of the human heart for fulfillment

Magenta · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

Yes, helps, but not force. Jesus said some would not believe even were someone to be raised from the dead. So evidence is not enough. People need to humble themselves in repentance before a holy, righteous, loving, merciful, and just God. Many refuse.

Jackson123 · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

I do not say we do not need a gift, we need a gift but we make a choice whether we refuse or accept that gift

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

Magenta said:

Of course evidence is not enough. Faith is a gift. It is not produced automatically by anything.

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

Jackson123 said:

Yes, we make choices.

But our choices are always based on something else, what we prefer, what we like etc.

And these delicate things will have either natural sources (leading us to sin) or source in God (leading us to faith, repentance etc).

Natural man will not love God, will not want to obey Him, will not want to be clean, will not want to get rid of sins etc. Its his choice, yes. He is not forced to be evil, its natural for him to be evil. Such a man needs grace of God to be changed.

Jackson123 · Sep 28, 2017

joefizz said:

Depends on what you mean by"Chosen" for it is written"many are called but few are chosen",in a sense we now must "choose" Jesus as saviour otherwise we are not yet Saved and committed to Jesus,but it is also written"before we loved him he loved us" so it's to be understood that Jesus now expects people to accept him and his promise of salvation but not all will,so it's kind of like a yes and no situation because we "individually" choose whom we serve,but Jesus is prepared to accept anyone as his once they accept him,but there is still the possibility that a person will not choose Jesus and salvation,Biblically Jesus chose many a person as disciples/apostles so he certainly foresees that many have the "potential" to do great things for him,yet he still leaves the "individual choice" of accepting and serving Jesus to us,somethings in life aren't as simple as yes and no,as many believe,somethings require understanding that we can't grasp alone,which is why we fellowship or ask God for answers,because otherwise we might pridefully come to a conclusion even perhaps an incorrect conclusion and confound others through such pride,realizing that one doesn't "know everything" is probably one of the best character building traits to practice because we grow in spirit and wisdom as we learn and teach and teach and learn,instead of being prideful saying things such as "I'm right and you're wrong" so quickly before we are "Sure".

Yep, Jesus call every body to be His follower, He chose apostle, but they free to refuse. Judas was His apostle and chose to betrayed Him.

joefizz · Sep 28, 2017

Jackson123 said:

correct,though I always point out typically that it was Judas Iscariot the other Judas didn't betray Jesus.

Jackson123 · Sep 28, 2017

slave said:

Election is unconditional in the sense that God did not base His choice on His foreknowledge of whether certain people would choose to believe in Christ. If He had done so, it would be a denial of His grace, because then their salvation would be based on something which they did in and of themselves. But Scripture is clear that salvation is totally by God’s grace (unmerited favor; (Eph. 2:8-9); (Rom 9:11-18); (Rom. 11:5-6).

Also, if God’s choosing us were based on His foreknowledge that we would choose Him, then He really didn’t choose us at all. Rather, He only would have responded to our choosing Him by then choosing us. But this would make God’s plan of salvation depend on the choices of fallen sinners, rather than on His purpose and glory. It would be puzzling as to why Paul plainly states, “He chose us,” if in fact, it were the other way around.

Such reasoning fits with human logic, but not with the revealed Word of God. Jesus plainly stated (John 6:65), “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” No one can means, no one is able. Clearly, the Father did not grant this to everyone, or Jesus’ statement would be needless. Jesus also said (Matt. 11:27), “no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” Knowing the Father depends on the Son of God choosing to reveal Him to the individual, which He does not do for everyone. But, what are the very next words out of Jesus’ mouth? “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt. 11:28). Jesus saw no contradiction between saying, “No one can know or come, unless I will it; therefore, come!” Neither should we! When Paul says, “God chose us,” we pervert Scripture if we twist it to mean, “We first chose God.”

Thus, He first loves us, and then we respond to His love by our will and subsequently, He then employs and empowers our will to live to the glory of the Father and Triune thru righteousness as our new Spiritual living.

Than, for the sake of love, why not elect all? God is love.

why John 3:16 say whosoever believe

uncondition?

to me believe is condition or requirement

Magenta · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

Faith is not forced on us against our will.

Jackson123 · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

natural man want salvation, natural man able to feel pain or hot or cool, have ability to understand and digest information

Let me tell you the true story

In my town there was a lady, people call her cim ayam, mean aunt chiken because she sale chiken for living. She die for few hour, she back to live. She tell the story, she Said she go to hell, her body tied with a iron chain, she was not Christian

Than angel bring her to heaven, she want stay there but her name is not in the book of life, than God say that she have second

Chance she back to life, accept Jesus and her family that hear the story aksi accept Jesus.

God give us a ear so we able to hear the story brain so we able to analized the story and decide whether we believe the story or not. It is our free Will to believe or not

our free Will to believe in Jesus or not

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

Magenta said:

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "being forced", but tell that to Paul ;-) He was put down from horse, blinded etc. Very gentle asking, I think

Because God has elected him to be his tool to spread gospel to nations.

Later, when Paul got new heart and gift of faith, his will got aligned with the will of God.

If our will is evil (and it naturally is), it needs to be changed. And thats from God.

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

Jackson123 said:

The ability to understand information is not enough. One must be born again.

"Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
J 3:5

No intelectual understanding of the gospel message will give you new birth. Sprit does that. Intelectual understanding is not spiritual understanding. And the spiritual one is needed.

---

Also, this change from natural to spiritual must precede the positive answer to gospel:

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Cor 2:14

joefizz · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

but still after being blinded,he could have went against Jesus again but he knew it wouldn't do any good,he wasn't "forced" into believing,he was simply stopped by and blinded by Jesus,if not for Jesus seeing him as a vassal he could have died a wicked murderer,the choice to serve or not was still there but it simply was made clear which path was best for Saul later named Paul.

Magenta · Sep 28, 2017

trofimus said:

After all this discussion it eludes you that the point is that choice is involved? Jesus invites us into relationship with Him. He stands at the door and knocks. It is Biblically sound to say we have a choice whether or not we open the door to Him. "If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Does that look like Jesus forcing anyone to open the door to Him? It sure doesn't to me!

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

joefizz said:

I think that with Paul we can see forcing in the beginning quite easily.

Of course that Paul was not forced to work for God all his life. As I said, he got a new heart by the grace of God.

joefizz · Sep 28, 2017

Magenta said:

After all this discussion it eludes you that the point is that choice is involved? Jesus invites us into relationship with Him. He stands at the door and knocks. It is Biblically sound to say we have a choice whether or not we open the door to Him. "If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Does that look like Jesus forcing anyone to open the door to Him? It sure doesn't to me!

Indeed "Humbling"'and "Forcing" are not the same.

trofimus · Sep 28, 2017

Magenta said:

I never said that choice is not involved!

I said, based on the Bible, that grace of God must be involved to make spiritual choices and to follow God. To make right choices.

We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us

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