Salvation is Not Permanent

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,576
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#41
If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?
Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?

Perhaps you need to do just that and redeem the time.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#42
I'll explain it for him if he hasn't.

Calvinism assumes that 'sealed' means, by pure definition of the word, that when we are 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit it means 'unable to be unsealed'. If that were true--that 'sealed' by definition means 'not able to unsealed'--then you would not be able to unseal your left over Lasagna in the refrigerator, lol.

When I point this out, Calvinists then point out that the Bible says we are sealed until the Day of Redemption, which it most certainly does (if we keep believing). So now the argument becomes we are 'not able to be unsealed until the Day of Redemption'', and so in a twisted sense dissolving their false assertion that 'sealed' means 'unsealable'. Well, for starters, I personally have no plans to not have the Holy Spirit after the Day of Redemption, lol. Do they? In fact, I'll have it all the more.....and it will be at that time it truly will be irreversible.

But until then, I and all believes have the responsibility to keep 'doing' what got us the Holy Spirit in the first place--believe. But that gets rejected because so many misguided OSASer's have been taught that even believing is now a work of the damnable works gospel. But it is clear that Paul contrasts, not equates believing with works in his famous 'works vs. faith for justification' treatise:

"5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV)

Somehow 'believing' has now skipped over to the side of works and is also among the works that constitute the damnable works gospel that can not save. How absurd. But that is where the church is at these days.
I have read 2 (two) books by Calvin in my whole life.

But lets see what is in the Bible:

"he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Heb 5:9

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2Tm 2:10)

"inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you" 1Pt 1:4
 
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Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
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#43
what is the reason God give a WARNING? I believe there is posibility a man change his mind careless, back to rob the bank etc and If the branch not bear the fruit anymore Will be burn in hell
Because His sheep obey Him.

Why do you believe that? Don't look at how likely it is for man to fail, but look at who is working inside him.
Is the work of Christ good enough to lead us home? Absoulty! Christ can not fail!

Rom. 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son that he might be the first born in among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
This is what it means to be saved.
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
586
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#45
Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?

Perhaps you need to do just that and redeem the time.
Let's go with water, if Christ gives us water and we never thirst again, can we change our minds and just be thirsty again anyway?
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#46
what is the reason God give a WARNING? I believe there is posibility a man change his mind careless, back to rob the bank etc and If the branch not bear the fruit anymore Will be burn in hell
Does this read as burning in hell when a person's body is being destroyed but his soul is saved?

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [SUP]13[/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 5:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So when I read John 15th chapter, I see that as an example of excommunication for any saved believer for not abiding in Him as His disciple.

Salvation and discipleship are 2 different things. A saved believer can be found in iniquity and thus not abiding as His disciple. He can repent and then be found abiding in Him but when that day comes when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture event, those in iniquity will be disqualified and thus cast away to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, BUT they are still in His House as a testimony to the power of God in salvation for any who even believe in His name.



So there is a race to be run but it is also by the grace of God when it is run by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us discern and depart from iniquity by laying aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received by the Bridegroom when He comes.

So trust in the Lord Jesus Christ today as your Good Shepherd to help you discern & depart from iniquity while resting in Him that you are saved BECAUSE that foundation can never be removed nor can you lose that seal of adoption, but the works on that foundation will be judged and one can grieve the Holy Spirit Whom we have been sealed unto that day of redemption.

John 6:[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#47
Because His sheep obey Him.

Why do you believe that? Don't look at how likely it is for man to fail, but look at who is working inside him.
Is the work of Christ good enough to lead us home? Absoulty! Christ can not fail!

Rom. 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son that he might be the first born in among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
This is what it means to be saved.
God want every body save, 2 peter 3:9 the fact is not every body save, that bible say, only few save. Is that mean God fail?

no, because he do not force people to be save.


For those God foreknew He also predestine.

[h=2]Definition of foreknow[/h]foreknew play \(ˌ)fȯr-ˈnü, -ˈnyü\; foreknown play \(ˌ)fȯr-ˈnōn\; foreknowingtransitive verb
:to have previous knowledge of :know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation

He foreknew what Will happen. Base of He know that one Will accept Him.

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#48
But Adam did not have the indwelling of The Holy Spirit and we don't know if Adam is in hell. Didn't Moses disobey God as well?
Adam was talk to God,we do not know If Holy spirit not indwell. Holy spirit not force us to obey, He guide us.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
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#49
Just wanted to clear things up. That is full Pelagianism and of course a false gospel, which is rampant around here.
Pelagianism, on a human level, has seductive appeal on many levels, hence its popularity!
I rejected Pelagiansim (at the time I didn't even know it had a label - I only discovered that later) as a baby Christian on the basis that it did not square with the reality that I observed around me.

However, the aspirational claims and apparent compassionate and loving veneer are intensely seductive to those that know and accept that love is definitely a part of the character of God yet are either ignorant of or deny all the other necessary attributes of God's character.

Nobody can deny this fact: not all are saved...
That alone disqualifies Pelagianism from any credibility.
All the wriggle-room that advocates of Plagiarism claim on this issue involve denying key aspects of God's attributes and character - in other words God cannot be God as He is revealed in the Bible.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#50
Does this read as burning in hell when a person's body is being destroyed but his soul is saved?

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [SUP]13[/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I
1 Corinthians 5:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So when I read John 15th chapter, I see that as an example of excommunication for any saved believer for not abiding in Him as His disciple.

Salvation and discipleship are 2 different things. A saved believer can be found in iniquity and thus not abiding as His disciple. He can repent and then be found abiding in Him but when that day comes when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture event, those in iniquity will be disqualified and thus cast away to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, BUT they are still in His House as a testimony to the power of God in salvation for any who even believe in His name.



So there is a race to be run but it is also by the grace of God when it is run by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us discern and depart from iniquity by laying aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received by the Bridegroom when He comes.

So trust in the Lord Jesus Christ today as your Good Shepherd to help you discern & depart from iniquity while resting in Him that you are saved BECAUSE that foundation can never be removed nor can you lose that seal of adoption, but the works on that foundation will be judged and one can grieve the Holy Spirit Whom we have been sealed unto that day of redemption.

John 6:[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Seem to me 1 ch 3 10-16 talking about Paul build a church, He lay the foundation, mean he start that church and he left to preach to other town, than other continue build a building upon that foundation. The foundation that Paul lay is Christ, than what kind of wall his successor put, told (pure theology) or Prosperity theology, or else.

If a man work shall be burn, let say the church disappear of persecution, that pastor los but not go to hell. Than verse 17 talk about a man, individual, If a man defile the tempel, he must be destroy,

inbelieve this mean If we commit sin there Will be punishment.

I do not know if that mean you can not lose your salvation, but yes God want every body save and guide whosoever willing to be guide.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#51
God want every body save, 2 peter 3:9 the fact is not every body save, that bible say, only few save. Is that mean God fail?

no, because he do not force people to be save.


For those God foreknew He also predestine.

[h=2]Definition of foreknow[/h]foreknew play \(ˌ)fȯr-ˈnü, -ˈnyü\; foreknown play \(ˌ)fȯr-ˈnōn\; foreknowingtransitive verb
:to have previous knowledge of :know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation

He foreknew what Will happen. Base of He know that one Will accept Him.

If He foreknew what will happen, everything was certain to happen before the creation of the world. So your free will goes out of the window, too.

But the context is He foreknew the people, not their deeds, so you use the context wrongly. But of course, God foreknew also our deeds, no theological problem with that.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#52
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For GOD SO loved the world, that he gave HIS only begotten SON, that whosoever believeth In HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Amen! Salvation is not probation. Everlasting life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. ;)
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#53
Seem to me 1 ch 3 10-16 talking about Paul build a church, He lay the foundation, mean he start that church and he left to preach to other town, than other continue build a building upon that foundation. The foundation that Paul lay is Christ, than what kind of wall his successor put, told (pure theology) or Prosperity theology, or else.
That foundation was laid by Jesus Christ; not by Paul nor any man.

If a man work shall be burn, let say the church disappear of persecution, that pastor los but not go to hell. Than verse 17 talk about a man, individual, If a man defile the tempel, he must be destroy,

inbelieve this mean If we commit sin there Will be punishment.
The body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit will be destroyed; hence physical death, unless they repent.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? [SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's

An example of future judgment of death by being left behind into the bed of the great tribulation is...

Revelation 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Proof that not everyone of that body of believers that lives in that city shall be judged as a whole can be seen in the next verse.

Revelation 2:[SUP]24 [/SUP]But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So it is about what you, as an individual believer build on that foundation; works of the flesh which includes heresy, or the fruits of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ in doing His work in you so you can follow Him.

I do not know if that mean you can not lose your salvation, but yes God want every body save and guide whosoever willing to be guide.
A professing believer is a saved Christian. That does not necessarily mean he is a disciple in following Jesus Christ. If they are unrepentant workers of iniquity, they are at risk of being disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper to be castaways and thus later received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor but they are still in His House as the least of the brethren.

A saved believer that trusts Jesus Christ to help him to follow Him is a disciple of Jesus Christ Whom prepared & kept by Him shall be received as vessels unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor.

John 8:[SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these words, many believed on him. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus wants saved believers to be His disciples so that they may bear fruit & that their joy may be full. Indeed, anyone being His disciples can expect to be pruned to bear more fruit.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

The consequence of verse 6 is not about loss of salvation, but the consequence for not abiding in Him as His disciple when being unrepentant workers of iniquity. One can go to Him and trust Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to discern good and evil by the meat of the KJV and by Him, to depart from iniquity just as we are to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race as we rest in Him our confidence in Him to finish what He has started in us.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 John 3:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure..........[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Philippians 1:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: [SUP]7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; [SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Salvation is not complicated; but discipleship in running that race is when believers misunderstand scripture thinking salvation is at risk when the dire consequence for not abiding in Him as His disciples will involves more than the loss of the reward of crowns, but winding up being a castaway; to be left behind at the pre trib rapture event as disqualified to attend the Supper.
 
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PHart

Guest
#54
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For GOD SO loved the world, that he gave HIS only begotten SON, that whosoever believeth In HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Note that the condition for having the life that is everlasting is that you believe (present tense). Stop believing and you no longer satisfy the requirement to possess eternal life. Only those who continue to believe in the present tense have eternal life.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#55
Note that the condition for having the life that is everlasting is that you believe (present tense). Stop believing and you no longer satisfy the requirement to possess eternal life. Only those who continue to believe in the present tense have eternal life.
The origin of the real and staying faith is in being born from above, from having a new heart.

So the ones who believed without this, were never possessing the eternal life and the ones who believed because of having it, had the life from the beginning and will have it for eternity.

Because you cannot lost being born again. Its not a thing you have in your pocket. Its your new core growing in you.
 
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PHart

Guest
#56
Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?
After he gets the Lasagna in the future when he redeems the ticket, no he can not lose it. Until then, he has a foretaste of the Lasagna, and a ticket in his possession that guarantees he will get the full meal when the ticket is presented at the great supper. If he loses the ticket he no get full meal.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,468
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#57
The origin of the real and staying faith is in being born from above, from having a new heart.

So the ones who believed without this, were never possessing the eternal life and the ones who believed because of having it, had the life from the beginning and will have it for eternity.

Because you cannot lost being born again. Its not a thing you have in your pocket. Its your new core.
Amen! Saving belief/faith in Christ is firmly rooted and established from the start and it also continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.
 
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PHart

Guest
#58
Because you cannot lost being born again. Its not a thing you have in your pocket. Its your new core growing in you.
Being born again is as simple as having the Holy Spirit in you. He can leave as easily as He came in. But for some reason Him doing that seems to the rock that God can't lift. Which you know is not true. Actually, your argument is that he won't do that. But you are presenting it like he can't do that.
 
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PHart

Guest
#59
Don't look at how likely it is for man to fail, but look at who is working inside him.
Is the work of Christ good enough to lead us home? Absoulty! Christ can not fail!
That's right. That's why we are exhorted to keep believing. What we believe in will not let us down. So keep believing! Don't give up on and lose that which is quite capable of getting you through to the end.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#60
Canwe ever lose our salvation through God, once we have attained it?


Thatquestion might have the same relevance as the question of whetherangels can be tossed out of Heaven.
It could have the same relevance, but it isn't the same relevance. Want to go with this bypass, why not just stick with our own species -- Adam and Eve? At first they were sinless. And then they sinned.

So, did God save Adam and Eve or not?

THAT's the same relevance.